Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Tiberiu]

Hi,

On 29.10.2016 09:18, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> There is a group of people (called TI) who decided to keep the sources private
> and not make them open. Why is your (or my) privacy more important than 
> theirs?

Private software is software not distributed to the public in any form
(for instance, binary-only). If TI has distributed to the
public/customers modems preinstalled with this firmware, then this
firmware is public software and we can't talk about privacy.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#PrivateSoftware

With our current copyright system, we in the free software community put
public software in two categories: free/libre software or
nonfree/proprietary software. In their case, it's the latter.

If TI has distributed their public software as proprietary, they have
wronged us, the users. IMO, violating copyright to correct this wrong is
a lesser evil than that proprietary software. However, correcting this
wrong by not violating copyright is the best and permanent solution to
this problem.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nit-india.html (look for "dilemma")

Thanks,
Tiberiu
--
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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2016 16:30:01 +0200
"H. Nikolaus Schaller"  wrote:
> Then, the whole leaked source code would not be required.
I don't see why it is required at all. OsmocomBB does work, you can
call with it, send SMS, and so on.

The main issue with osmocomBB is that it requires a GNU/Linux host
computer to run.
While the layer1 runs on the modem, the layer3 currently requires a
GNU/Linux computer to run on.

Even on a smartphone this isn't great as you cannot keep the
application processor suspended anymore, else you would loose calls.

I guess that it would have taken less work to make OsmocomBB usable as
a feature phone or smartphone modem firmware.

I tried to convince the main person behind FreeCalypso to do exactly
that, without success.

Given that devices[1] supported by Replicant:
- Don't have a free software bootloader
- Don't have free software WiFi firmware
- Don't have mainline Linux and bootloader support

It is currently more urgent in my TODO list than finishing the port of
OsmocomBB to Nuttx.

References:
---
[1] The Goldelico GTA04 wasn't fully merged, and the LG Optimus black
has no Replicant port at all and even lacks many features in
upstream Linux(such as display support).

Denis.


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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Paul van der Vlis]

Op 28-10-16 om 18:55 schreef Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli:

> Running free software on hardware that ships with or to run software
> violating copyright might be another story though.
> I don't know the legal, or social consequences of doing that, as I
> didn't research it.

I expect the board comes without any software.

With regards,
Paul van der Vlis



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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Paul van der Vlis]

Op 28-10-16 om 14:27 schreef H. Nikolaus Schaller:
> 
>> Am 28.10.2016 um 13:33 schrieb Paul van der Vlis :
>>
>> Op 28-10-16 om 12:29 schreef Bob Ham:
>>> On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 11:45 +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote:
>>>
 Those people
 have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs
>>>
>>> Unfortuantely, that firmware isn't legal to use in most jurisdictions.
>>> The source code came from a leak and carries a proprietary license.  The
>>> people distributing it are violating copyright law.
>>
>> You are right. But phones with Replicant are using a modem with closed
>> source firmware. Both is "bad".
> 
> Why? FSF treats encapsulated firmware in some UART or USB connected modem
> to be "hardware".
> 
>>
>> It's really difficult to create FOSS GSM firmware without examples,
> 
> Why? There are GSM protocol testers, there are text books. There is Osmocomm.
> So a unit test driven software development process seems possible without
> any knowledge about leaked source codes.

Herald Welte from Osmocomm donated 450 USD to get such a board.

>> Michaela is bringing us examples. What Snowden did is very illigal too,
>> but his information is very interesting.
> 
> Of course it is "interesting" to look into the source codes. Like it is
> "interesting" to listen to your private communication...

The second one has privacy issues, the first one not.

> So why should one be "good" (if you are looking into someone else's source
> codes) and the other is "bad" (if someone else, like NSA, is looking
> into your communication)?
> 
> Anyways, there are even two aspects of "legal" in this case.
> 
> One is about the source code license and openness.
> 
> The other is that the frequency bands are not assigned for general purpose,
> but only available to devices which pass a big set of rules. This process
> is called certification. You just have to go through the certification
> process and then it is no longer illegal to use it. You do not need this
> if you operate in a lab and with a dummy load.
> 
> In both cases it is just a matter of efforts and money to contact the
> right people and offer to pay for properly licensed source codes or write
> your own from scratch (there is enough public information available how
> the GSM protocols work). And then go officially through the certification
> process. If you pay you will not be rejected just because you are a small
> project. 

Eventually because it's open source.

> You will be rejected if the device does not conform to the
> certification requirements.
>
> So this is completely different to Snowden's case. He has published 
> information
> that we should know about in a democracy, but where there was no possibility
> to make it legal by enough money or efforts. Hence I think it is a different
> category that leaked source codes.
> 
> Contrary to that, with GSM modems it is just that we (the public community)
> do not collect enough money to fund the legal path - which exists.

If you would collect to get enough money for developing such software
and following the legal path, I would support you too.

With regards,
Paul van der Vlis.


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https://www.vandervlis.nl/


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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

== FreeCalypso and OsmocomBB ==
> >>  Those people
> >>  have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs  
Their GSM firmware is leaked proprietary software.

> Michaela is bringing us examples. What Snowden did is very illigal
> too, but his information is very interesting.
That source code can indeed be used as documentation, to create a free
software replacement for it.

In fact the TI calypso modem datasheets and source code are available
on the Internet since a long time ago.

Thanks to it, we now have a free software GSM fimrware that
partially runs on such modems: The GSM layer1 runs on the modem, while
the upper layers (like the layer3) have to run on a GNU/Linux computer.

That Firmware, in its current form, has serious usability
shortcomings, as you need a computer to be on all the time to use it.

Because of that, several people worked on porting some of the supported
modems to Nuttx, in order to later port the layer3 to run on the
modems.

== FreeCalypso produced hardware ==
Since the Freecalypso project seem to be able to make hardware with
calypso modems, i guess that nothing would prevent people to port
osmocomBB on it or to continue the work to get the layer3 running on
the calypso modems.

Running free sofware on hardware that ships with or to run non-free
software is very common. Most/all[1] of smartphones supported by the
Replicant project fits in.

Running free software on hardware that ships with or to run software
violating copyright might be another story though.
I don't know the legal, or social consequences of doing that, as I
didn't research it.

The closest cases that I know don't fit here:
- Free software friendly gaming consoles communities or vendors
  sometimes somehow advertising the use of emulators to run
  "abandonware", that is, widely available proprietary software games,
  without having the permission from the copyright owner.
  Some of such gaming consoles can be used as a portable generic
  purpose GNU/Linux computer, without running any proprietary software
  games. If not they probably can also run only run free software games.

  Using such consoles as general purpose computers seems fine to me,
  especially if the device can run only free software and is well
  supported in upstream projects. Doing the promotion of such use case
  would probably not push people to run proprietary software games.
  The OpenPandora seems to be one of such consoles, but as far as I
  know, nobody tried to run Parabola on it yet. It should also be able
  to work with ath9k_htc compatible wifi cards.

- Devices with AllWinner SOCs: Many of the early devices used code form
  AllWinner which violated the GPL. The community made it possible not
  to have to run GPL violating code. I don't know enough to gasp all
  the implications of it. Still I think that we should, if we can, make
  sure that AllWinner stops violating the GPL.

== FAQ ==
This is not the first time that people thinks that the Freecalypso
provides a free software or otherwise acceptable baseband source code.
we might want to make the entry generic enough to cover instead free
software for basebands.

References:
---
[1] We still need to add proper support in Replicant for the GTA04.
Replicant supports for the GTA04 is highly incomplete.
Its vendor made an image based on Replicant for that device, but
the code was not fully integrated back into Replicant.

Denis.


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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 28.10.2016 um 16:11 schrieb Brian Kemp :
> 
> On 10/28/2016 07:33 AM, Paul van der Vlis wrote:
>> Op 28-10-16 om 12:29 schreef Bob Ham:
>>> On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 11:45 +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote:
>>> 
 Those people
 have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs
>>> 
>>> Unfortuantely, that firmware isn't legal to use in most jurisdictions.
>>> The source code came from a leak and carries a proprietary license.  The
>>> people distributing it are violating copyright law.
>> 
>> You are right. But phones with Replicant are using a modem with closed
>> source firmware. Both is "bad".
>> 
>> It's really difficult to create FOSS GSM firmware without examples,
>> Michaela is bringing us examples. What Snowden did is very illigal too,
>> but his information is very interesting.
> 
> I suspect they will have to use the "Chinese Wall" method, like Compaq
> did to clone the original IBM BIOS:
> 
> Make a specification based upon what the leaked code does.
> 
> Have people who have never seen the leaked code write a separate
> implementation based entirely on the specification.
> 
> That will be legal, at least in the US.
> 
> It's time-consuming and requires people.

A significant portion of the specification what the firmware should do
already exists:

http://www.etsi.org/technologies-clusters/technologies/mobile/gsm
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/gsm/gsm_protocol_stack.htm

Of course someone has to buy them.

And it exists inside of GSM protocol testers like:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rohde-Schwarz-CMD55-54-57-59-GSM-DCS-PCS-900-1800-1900-RADIO-COM-Tester-/172076878961?hash=item281094cc71

Maybe TI can be accessed to get the data sheets and programming manuals
of the Calypso - even under NDA.

Then, the whole leaked source code would not be required.



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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Am 28.10.2016 um 13:33 schrieb Paul van der Vlis :
> 
> Op 28-10-16 om 12:29 schreef Bob Ham:
>> On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 11:45 +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote:
>> 
>>> Those people
>>> have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs
>> 
>> Unfortuantely, that firmware isn't legal to use in most jurisdictions.
>> The source code came from a leak and carries a proprietary license.  The
>> people distributing it are violating copyright law.
> 
> You are right. But phones with Replicant are using a modem with closed
> source firmware. Both is "bad".

Why? FSF treats encapsulated firmware in some UART or USB connected modem
to be "hardware".

> 
> It's really difficult to create FOSS GSM firmware without examples,

Why? There are GSM protocol testers, there are text books. There is Osmocomm.
So a unit test driven software development process seems possible without
any knowledge about leaked source codes.

> Michaela is bringing us examples. What Snowden did is very illigal too,
> but his information is very interesting.

Of course it is "interesting" to look into the source codes. Like it is
"interesting" to listen to your private communication...

So why should one be "good" (if you are looking into someone else's source
codes) and the other is "bad" (if someone else, like NSA, is looking
into your communication)?

Anyways, there are even two aspects of "legal" in this case.

One is about the source code license and openness.

The other is that the frequency bands are not assigned for general purpose,
but only available to devices which pass a big set of rules. This process
is called certification. You just have to go through the certification
process and then it is no longer illegal to use it. You do not need this
if you operate in a lab and with a dummy load.

In both cases it is just a matter of efforts and money to contact the
right people and offer to pay for properly licensed source codes or write
your own from scratch (there is enough public information available how
the GSM protocols work). And then go officially through the certification
process. If you pay you will not be rejected just because you are a small
project. You will be rejected if the device does not conform to the
certification requirements.

So this is completely different to Snowden's case. He has published information
that we should know about in a democracy, but where there was no possibility
to make it legal by enough money or efforts. Hence I think it is a different
category that leaked source codes.

Contrary to that, with GSM modems it is just that we (the public community)
do not collect enough money to fund the legal path - which exists.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Paul van der Vlis]

Op 28-10-16 om 12:29 schreef Bob Ham:
> On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 11:45 +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote:
> 
>>  Those people
>>  have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs
> 
> Unfortuantely, that firmware isn't legal to use in most jurisdictions.
> The source code came from a leak and carries a proprietary license.  The
> people distributing it are violating copyright law.

You are right. But phones with Replicant are using a modem with closed
source firmware. Both is "bad".

It's really difficult to create FOSS GSM firmware without examples,
Michaela is bringing us examples. What Snowden did is very illigal too,
but his information is very interesting.

With regards,
Paul van der Vlis.


-- 
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https://www.vandervlis.nl/

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Re: [Replicant] OT: Open source GSM board

[Bob Ham]

On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 11:45 +0200, Paul van der Vlis wrote:

>  Those people
>  have working GSM firmware what compiles using GCC, without blobs

Unfortuantely, that firmware isn't legal to use in most jurisdictions.
The source code came from a leak and carries a proprietary license.  The
people distributing it are violating copyright law.

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