Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

That will only work if programs adhere to UX guidelines.

15.11.2018 13:30 tarihinde Dick yazdı:
> i think the chance ereactos has is to develop accessibility as part of
> the os instead of depending on a screenreader. when reactos does all
> accessibillity stuff itself it can make things accessibel that are not
> accessibel with screenreaders because the accessibility is built into
> the os itself, like graphics are sent to the gpu text should be sent
> to the braille display, maybe it should be built like a monochrome
> mode, everything should still work but the used screen is not capable
> of anny graphics so just the text should be sent to it. 

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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

i think the chance ereactos has is to develop accessibility as part of the 
os instead of depending on a screenreader. when reactos does all 
accessibillity stuff itself it can make things accessibel that are not 
accessibel with screenreaders because the accessibility is built into the 
os itself, like graphics are sent to the gpu text should be sent to the 
braille display, maybe it should be built like a monochrome mode, 
everything should still work but the used screen is not capable of anny 
graphics so just the text should be sent to it.


On Thu, 15 Nov 2018, Stefan L. wrote:


Hi,
you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out current
focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff should be the same
task and use exactly the same OS functions as in Windows. Thus, develop
screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing / extending windows' gui
libraries - but that would be a completely separate project, not part of
ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on Windows, put effort into fixing
bugs / missing features in ReactOS to get it working.
Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.

Just my personal opinion.

Best regards,
basisbit

Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney 
geschrieben:
  Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY
  serial
  (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However,
  unlike
  userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has
  the
  desired end result.

  Yours, faithfully
  Erkin Alp


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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Stefan, I know the aim of ReactOS. However, Windows XP setup lacks
accessibility and this is a new functionality to ReactOS. Hence no
compatibility issues. In addition, you cannot use ReactOS setup to
install Windows XP nor vice versa.

15.11.2018 13:05 tarihinde Stefan L. yazdı:
> Hi,
>
> you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out
> current focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff
> should be the same task and use exactly the same OS functions as in
> Windows. Thus, develop screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing
> / extending windows' gui libraries - but that would be a completely
> separate project, not part of ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on
> Windows, put effort into fixing bugs / missing features in ReactOS to
> get it working.
>
> Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.
>
> Just my personal opinion.
>
> Best regards,
> basisbit
>
> Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney
> mailto:erkinalp9...@gmail.com>> geschrieben:
>
> Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial
> (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike
> userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the
> desired end result.
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>
>
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Stefan L.]

Hi,

you might want to take a look at the goal of ReactOS again. Out current
focus should target that goal. Writing screenreader stuff should be the
same task and use exactly the same OS functions as in Windows. Thus,
develop screen readers for Windows (possibly replacing / extending windows'
gui libraries - but that would be a completely separate project, not part
of ReactOS. Once that screenreader works on Windows, put effort into fixing
bugs / missing features in ReactOS to get it working.

Any other solution will not be worth the time and effort you put into it.

Just my personal opinion.

Best regards,
basisbit

Am Do., 15. Nov. 2018, 10:21 hat Erkin Alp Güney 
geschrieben:

> Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial
> (means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike
> userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the
> desired end result.
>
> Yours, faithfully
> Erkin Alp
>
>
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Windows NT console API is based on Matrix TUI concept, not TTY serial
(means you get to handle line buffering yourself). However, unlike
userspace, we can modify setup however we like as long as it has the
desired end result.

Yours, faithfully
Erkin Alp


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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

why not just run brltty driver in the boot process? when installer is 
textmode the only thing would be it has to be able to detect the 
usb/serial braille display



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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

You unset the lower line of a 8-bit matrix and you get 6-bit display.
This is simple bit masking and will not require complex driver operations.

15.11.2018 09:59 tarihinde M. Ziggyesque yazdı:
> I'm not saying it isn't possible to support the hardware, just I have
> not seen any pre-boot environment that the installer might need to
> communicate with attempt to provide this support, so it is also
> available to whatever gets installed, after reboot. The installer may
> be fine using only 6-dot combinations, but I'd consider it likely some
> varieties of applications will assume all 8 dots may be input or
> output over the single channels most compilers support.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *Erkin Alp Güney
> *Date: *Thu, Nov 15, 2018 1:04 AM
> *To: *ros-dev@reactos.org;
> *Cc: *
> *Subject:*Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for
> the blind
>
> Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either
> USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two
> different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor
> situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are
> independent output channels, which just happen to share contents.
> Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers
> are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and
> mathematical notations.
>
>
>
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[M. Ziggyesque]

I'm not saying it isn't possible to support the hardware, just I have not seen 
any pre-boot environment that the installer might need to communicate with 
attempt to provide this support, so it is also available to whatever gets 
installed, after reboot. The installer may be fine using only 6-dot 
combinations, but I'd consider it likely some varieties of applications will 
assume all 8 dots may be input or output over the single channels most 
compilers support.

-- Original message--
From: Erkin Alp Güney
Date: Thu, Nov 15, 2018 1:04 AM
To: ros-dev@reactos.org;
Cc:
Subject:Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either
USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two
different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor
situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are
independent output channels, which just happen to share contents.
Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers
are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and
mathematical notations.



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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

Braille will not be output by GPU, it will be output by CPU onto either
USB or serial Braille bumper. Two different output channels may use two
different codepages. If they were somewhat dependent as in multi-monitor
situation, you would need to drive both via GPU. However they are
independent output channels, which just happen to share contents.
Commonly used Braille is a six dot encoding and most letters and numbers
are encoded by this encoding. Eight dot encoding is used for music and
mathematical notations.



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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[M. Ziggyesque]

The console itself is still a graphical user mode app; it or a DOS box simply 
uses a DefConsoleProc (sic) instead of DefWindowProc behind the scenes to 
manage the GUI aspects and system menu, and may use an OEM code page instead of 
an ANSI one in full screen mode. Windows may eventually be able to boot to a 
native mode full screen console instead of explorer, but that is real low on 
the priorities list, afaik.

The primary bar to using braille in the installer, that I see, is that it 
requires at least two code pages to represent various text and line delimeters 
and the 8 dots of graphics defined for it, or G0, G1 and G2 charmaps for 
systems that support ISO-2022, and the installer is only designed to use one 
code page, that maps to one defined GL and GR charmaps as inputs, for ANSI code 
pages. This is because no video card or terminal I'm aware of currently 
supports multi-byte encodings at power up / boot time as a hardware limitation, 
not software; at most a BIOS may use additional graphics for chars that index 
into the C0 and C1 charmaps on output, like with VGA/VESA's support for CP437.

The assumption has been boot time applications like installers would limit 
themselves to ISO-646 variants like ASCII, to make writing BIOS ROMs easier. 
People needing special peripherals like braille bump printers or bump scanners 
would have these supported once a sighted person configured their system for 
them.



-- Original message--
From: Erkin Alp Güney
Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2018 12:49 PM
To: ros-dev@reactos.org;
Cc:
Subject:Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

You can if you implement a Win32 to console translator. Nothing is
impossible.

14.11.2018 20:13 tarihinde Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo yazdı:
> This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)
>

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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Magnus Johnsson]

Interesting! So I was *completely* wrong ;).

How would *you* go about making the installer accessible?

Den ons 14 nov. 2018 kl 19:10 skrev Erkin Alp Güney :

> WINE's accessibility stuff is handled by underlying desktop's UI kit,
> not by WINE itself.
>
> 14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
> > Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
> >
> > Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to
> > understand, with people still working on kernel things, making
> > applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
> >
> > Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be
> > handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem
> > with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that
> > the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
> >
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick mailto:d...@deds.nl>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos
> > accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while
> > building
> > the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
> >
> >
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

WINE's accessibility stuff is handled by underlying desktop's UI kit,
not by WINE itself.

14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
> Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
>
> Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to
> understand, with people still working on kernel things, making
> applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
>
> Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be
> handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem
> with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that
> the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick mailto:d...@deds.nl> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos
> accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while
> building
> the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
>
>
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

why not? i am not a programmer myself, but maybe there is a 
workaround(emulating graphics mode but not displaying them for example), 
maybe things that are not possible in microsoft windows can be made 
possible in the windows-environment reactos creates


On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo wrote:


This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)

El mié., 14 nov. 2018 17:36, Dick  escribió:
  of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can
  be ran
  headless without graphics.

  On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:

  >> the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out
  what
  >> developers had done to make an app accessible. for example,
  when a
  >> screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same
  version will
  >> probably run into problems when running version 60, the
  screen reader
  >> needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the
  app.
  >> Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be
  helpfull
  >> is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into
  the os
  >> to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics
  for
  >> example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os
  updated
  >> apps will have much less influence because the os itself is
  doing the
  >> tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a
  much
  >> harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to
  include such
  >> features in an os that is still in heavy development.
  >
  > Some software will not work that way because they supply UI
  not text,
  > just images. That kind of software will not work with
  screenreaders nor
  > hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.
  >
  >
  >
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

You can if you implement a Win32 to console translator. Nothing is
impossible.

14.11.2018 20:13 tarihinde Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo yazdı:
> This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)
>

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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Javier Agustìn Fernàndez Arroyo]

This is not Linux, Windows software can NOT run with no graphics ;)

El mié., 14 nov. 2018 17:36, Dick  escribió:

> of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can be ran
> headless without graphics.
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:
>
> >> the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what
> >> developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a
> >> screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will
> >> probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader
> >> needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app.
> >> Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull
> >> is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os
> >> to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for
> >> example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated
> >> apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the
> >> tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much
> >> harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such
> >> features in an os that is still in heavy development.
> >
> > Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text,
> > just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor
> > hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

of course, you are right. but like in linux, much software can be ran 
headless without graphics.


On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Erkin Alp Güney wrote:


the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what
developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a
screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will
probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader
needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app.
Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull
is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os
to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for
example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated
apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the
tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much
harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such
features in an os that is still in heavy development. 


Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text,
just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor
hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.



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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

> the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what
> developers had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a
> screenreader give access to firefox version 40 that same version will
> probably run into problems when running version 60, the screen reader
> needs to be updated and adjusted to the changes made in the app.
> Reactos is an os built from the ground. what i think would be helpfull
> is to do it the other way this time: built functionality into the os
> to display just text on braille displays instead of graphics for
> example. when the accessibility is fully built into the os updated
> apps will have much less influence because the os itself is doing the
> tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think it is a much
> harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to include such
> features in an os that is still in heavy development. 

Some software will not work that way because they supply UI not text,
just images. That kind of software will not work with screenreaders nor
hi-contrast unless it is explicitly programmed for.



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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

Hi magnus,
unfortunately this is not how screenreaders work. screenreaders rely on 
accessibility libraries built into the operating system. running a windows 
screenreader in linux will not work, you need to use orc(the linux 
screenreader).
fortunately some realy helpfull packages are already ported to 
windows(brltty to use braille displays and espeak to give speech output). 
but these applications are just part of the proces. for example  when 
running brltty in graphic mode it will just show lines filled with the ? 
symbol.
the main problem of screenreaders is they have to find out what developers 
had done to make an app accessible. for example, when a screenreader give 
access to firefox version 40 that same version will probably run into 
problems when running version 60, the screen reader needs to be updated 
and adjusted to the changes made in the app. Reactos is an os built from 
the ground. what i think would be helpfull is to do it the other way this 
time: built functionality into the os to display just text on braille 
displays instead of graphics for example. when the accessibility is fully 
built into the os updated apps will have much less influence because the 
os itself is doing the tasks needed to make everythign accessible. I think 
it is a much harder job to build this into a fully finished os than to 
include such features in an os that is still in heavy development.



On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, Magnus Johnsson wrote:


Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:

Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to
understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications
actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by
WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not
working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault
doesn't pop up with wine under linux.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick http://www.reactos.org/mailman/listinfo/ros-dev





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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Erkin Alp Güney]

The installer itself needs to be accessible enough. WINE does not use a
Windows style installer by itself.

14.11.2018 17:51 tarihinde Magnus Johnsson yazdı:
> Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:
>
> Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to
> understand, with people still working on kernel things, making
> applications actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...
>
> Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be
> handled by WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem
> with not working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that
> the same fault doesn't pop up with wine under linux.
>
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick mailto:d...@deds.nl> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos
> accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while
> building
> the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
>
>
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Re: [ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Magnus Johnsson]

Jumping in here with a quick reply as a *lurker*, not a developer:

Don't think anyone would mind if you supplied patches :). You have to
understand, with people still working on kernel things, making applications
actually work, stop crashing, hardware support...

Most that would interface with screenreaders would *probably* be handled by
WINE anyway. Is there something specific you have a problem with not
working? If so, do file a bug report! But first check that the same fault
doesn't pop up with wine under linux.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 15:39 Dick  Hi,
> I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos
> accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building
> the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.
>
>
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[ros-dev] no replies about making reactos accessible for the blind

[Dick]

Hi,
I did not receive anny replies about my question to make reactos 
accessible for the blind. I would really suggest to do that while building 
the os, instead of doign it when the whole system is fully built.



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