Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[David Joyner]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:33 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
>
>
>>> > I deleted it as flame bait.   I'm sick of people using sage-devel as a
>>> > forum to attack others
>>>

I have set Nathann to moderated posting on sage-devel.

IMHO, his last several posts were flame-bait and go in sage-flame not
sage-devel.

>>> I'm sick of it too. But this kind of unilateral actions only fuels the
>>> flame, it does not extinguish it.
>>>
>>> Especially given your position as a CEO of a for profit company, William.
>>> Even though you do not have the power to do the same with Sage as what just
>>> happened with MariaDB, the community is entitled with a legitimate
>>> (unfounded, I believe) fear of SageMath Inc. trying to do something similar
>>> at some point. This kind of unilateral censorship, although well
>>> intentioned, can only spark more of those flames.
>>
>>
>> If people really want flame bait on this list, then I am going to stop
>> reading sage-devel.
>
>
> It's a tough call here, because in a technical sense it was accurate and not
> attacking, so I would be inclined to have handled it via a "This is flame
> bait" response message (and indeed perhaps moving to sage-flame, if that's
> possible).  Even though I think regular readers of this know it was probably
> intended in some manner as an attack, for a first-time reader this might not
> have been clear.  But the lack of context (despite the link provided) is
> definitely problematic.  It would have been nice if someone other than the
> intended victim had been able to deal with the post, though, as it shouldn't
> have been his job. If having more moderators helps with that it's fine.  But
> will there be enough moderators?
>
>
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Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[kcrisman]

> I deleted it as flame bait.   I'm sick of people using sage-devel as a 
>> > forum to attack others
>>
>> I'm sick of it too. But this kind of unilateral actions only fuels the 
>> flame, it does not extinguish it.
>>
>> Especially given your position as a CEO of a for profit company, William. 
>> Even though you do not have the power to do the same with Sage as what just 
>> happened with MariaDB, the community is entitled with a legitimate 
>> (unfounded, I believe) fear of SageMath Inc. trying to do something similar 
>> at some point. This kind of unilateral censorship, although well 
>> intentioned, can only spark more of those flames.
>>
>
> If people really want flame bait on this list, then I am going to stop 
> reading sage-devel.
>

It's a tough call here, because in a technical sense it was accurate and 
not attacking, so I would be inclined to have handled it via a "This is 
flame bait" response message (and indeed perhaps moving to sage-flame, if 
that's possible).  Even though I think regular readers of this know it was 
probably intended in some manner as an attack, for a first-time reader this 
might not have been clear.  But the lack of context (despite the link 
provided) is definitely problematic.  It would have been nice if someone 
other than the intended victim had been able to deal with the post, though, 
as it shouldn't have been his job. If having more moderators helps with 
that it's fine.  But will there be enough moderators?
 

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Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[Erik Bray]

On Aug 25, 2016 10:18, "William Stein"  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2016, Luca De Feo 
wrote:
>>
>> > I deleted it as flame bait.   I'm sick of people using sage-devel as a
>> > forum to attack others
>>
>> I'm sick of it too. But this kind of unilateral actions only fuels the
flame, it does not extinguish it.
>>
>> Especially given your position as a CEO of a for profit company,
William. Even though you do not have the power to do the same with Sage as
what just happened with MariaDB, the community is entitled with a
legitimate (unfounded, I believe) fear of SageMath Inc. trying to do
something similar at some point. This kind of unilateral censorship,
although well intentioned, can only spark more of those flames.
>
>
> If people really want flame bait on this list, then I am going to stop
reading sage-devel.

I'm inclined to agree. I think that characterizations like "unilateral" and
"censorship" are needlessly pejorative in this case. Sometimes swift and
unforgiving action against ill-willed and toxic trolling is justified.
*Especially* given a lack of better moderation standards. That said, while
I think the lack of community standards justifies it, that lack still isn't
excused.

>> Any long lived community on the net has moderators, be they elected or
co-opted. No one moderator takes this kind of decisions alone. Can we try,
once again, to start a process to become a well behaved community? There is
no shortage of very good examples of well behaved, long lived, FOSS
communities. Think Debian, think Software carpentry, ...

Here I agree with Luca. I think this is desperately needed this community.
I've been wanting very much to bring it up for a while but as I know from
personal experience it takes a lot of work and I'm already spread too thin.
Also being rather new to this community I don't feel comfortable taking the
lead on such a discussion. But I think it does need to happen. (Just not
starting in this thread of course).

Best,
Erik

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Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[William Stein]

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016, Luca De Feo 
wrote:

> > I deleted it as flame bait.   I'm sick of people using sage-devel as a
> > forum to attack others
>
> I'm sick of it too. But this kind of unilateral actions only fuels the
> flame, it does not extinguish it.
>
> Especially given your position as a CEO of a for profit company, William.
> Even though you do not have the power to do the same with Sage as what just
> happened with MariaDB, the community is entitled with a legitimate
> (unfounded, I believe) fear of SageMath Inc. trying to do something similar
> at some point. This kind of unilateral censorship, although well
> intentioned, can only spark more of those flames.
>

If people really want flame bait on this list, then I am going to stop
reading sage-devel.

  - William


>
> Any long lived community on the net has moderators, be they elected or
> co-opted. No one moderator takes this kind of decisions alone. Can we try,
> once again, to start a process to become a well behaved community? There is
> no shortage of very good examples of well behaved, long lived, FOSS
> communities. Think Debian, think Software carpentry, ...
>
> Luca
>
>





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-- 
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Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[William Stein]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Vincent Delecroix
<20100.delecr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The mail of Nathann posted on 24 Aug. 2016 [1], [2] cross posted on
> sage-support and sage-devel did not reach sage-devel. My answer to him did
> not reach sage-devel either.
>
> It was clearly not spam. Possibly considered as flame (but the thread was
> not moved to sage-flame). I would be happy to know what happend... And

I deleted it as flame bait.   I'm sick of people using sage-devel as a
forum to attack others.

William

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Re: [sage-devel] mailing list administration

[Johan S . H . Rosenkilde]

The mails seems to have been correctly sent out to subscribers (of
sage-devel). At least a few of us here at SD75 got it. I can't explain
why it's not showing up on the google groups web site.

Best,
Johan

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[sage-devel] mailing list administration

[Vincent Delecroix]

Hello,

The mail of Nathann posted on 24 Aug. 2016 [1], [2] cross posted on 
sage-support and sage-devel did not reach sage-devel. My answer to him 
did not reach sage-devel either.


It was clearly not spam. Possibly considered as flame (but the thread 
was not moved to sage-flame). I would be happy to know what happend... 
And it would be better to take this kind of hard decision with a minimum 
of common agreement (unless google had a bug in its mailing-list 
software ;-).


Best,
Vincent

[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-support/Sn_yMvyfmNg
[2] (dead link) 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sage-devel/uMKrfulyAzw



from Nathann:

Quote from William Stein, CEO of SageMath Inc (private for-profit
Delaware company) [1]

So there is no confusion, my top priority right now is to **make a lot
of money** by building a profitable company on open source software
(Latex, Linux, Sage, Octave, R, etc.)

(full post)
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sage-devel/B3WnJr6S1bw/JQ_jvOITBAAJ

This post being entirely factual, I shouldn't be held responsible for
its content.

Nathann

[1] 
http://www.edgarcompany.sec.gov/servlet/CompanyDBSearch?page=detailed=0001634867_back=23


from me:

Hi Nathann,

But you are responsible for hiding the rest of the message...

- William's strategy is: making money with SageMath Inc and use this 
money to continue (i.e. after having started Sage) building an open 
source ecosystem for mathematical computations.


- Not every Sage developer thinks that SageMath Inc is a good way for 
improving SageMath.


Argued e-mails are much more fruitful than "factual" ones hiding calumnies.

Cheers,
Vincent


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