[scots-l] Burrolling, as we posh fowk call it
Birlin This subject has provoked the biggest thread I've seen on Scots-L, so it's obviously extremely important. Of course I'm completely eaten up with jealousy because I'm not a fiddler. I don't even know whether I birl - how can you tell? [1]. I shouldn't think it's physically possible on the mandolin, but what about the whistle? I expect my proportion would be 1:1:27 (something to ask at your next session: "Hi there, what's your proportion in a birl?"). Talking of Scott Skinner, someone asked me for his tune "Scott Skinner's Rockin' Step", and asked what its real name was. I replied: . "Surprisingly enough it WAS called exactly that when he published it in his Harp and Claymore collection in 1903. The term is almost certainly a dancing reference, although in 18th century Scotland a "Rocking" was the Lowland equivalent of the Highland "ceilidh". It's a great tune and, like you, it was Richard Thompson who introduced it to me. It works well on mandolin, but I can't imagine it being played better than on an electric guitar! "I suspect that Thompson owned a book called 'The Scottish Violinist' - a sort of "Best of Scott Skinner" - which is still available, I believe. it contains about 150 of Skinner's tunes (selected from his 600 or so compositions), including the ones Richard Thompson played - also "Dargai" which is on another record, isn't it?" X:231 T:Scott Skinner' Rockin' Step C:James Scott Skinner B:Harp Claymore, 1903 (via The Scottish Violinist) Z:Nigel Gatherer M:4/4 L:1/8 K:D e|ce A/A/e ceAe|ce A/A/e A/A/e ae|\ ce A/A/e c/e/e A/e/e|G,/B/B g/B/B d2 d:|] f|eaca A/A/A a2|A/A/A a2 f2 ea|\ eaca A/A/A g2|G,/B/B g/B/B d2 df| eaca A/A/A a2|A/A/A a2 f2 e/f/g|\ a/f/a g/e/g f/d/f e/c/e|G,/B/B g/B/B d2 d|] . [1] A few years back I designed a cassette cover for a group called The Birlin' Ensemble, which I thought was a great name for a dance band. Only they were an a capella singing group. very good they were, too. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Burrolling, as we posh fowk call it
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Birlin This subject has provoked the biggest thread I've seen on Scots-L, so it's obviously extremely important. Of course I'm completely eaten up with jealousy because I'm not a fiddler. I don't even know whether I birl - how can you tell? [1]. I shouldn't think it's physically possible on the mandolin, but what about the whistle? I expect my proportion would be 1:1:27 (something to ask at your next session: "Hi there, what's your proportion in a birl?"). I personally never have called them "birls", always "cuts". I've heard cuttings on the mando before. It can be done! :-) Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Burrolling
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally never have called them "birls", always "cuts". I've heard cuttings on the mando before. It can be done! :-) I am unsure, still, about the subtle differences between birls and triplets as translated to fingerstyle or plectrum instruments. Tony McManus uses very rapid double and triple notes to imitate a fiddle technique, the triplet usually really forming a four-note rapid fire sequence with note immediately after it. He has called this a 'birl' and a 'triplet' at different times and so have reviewers, but never a 'cut' which I assume to be more like a broken note than a series of notes. I don't seriously attempt Tony's single note, single string rapid triplets and tend to use two strings or even two different notes, but the middle one 'damped' so heavily it just makes a percussive click; you get the feel of a short rush of notes, but actually you're getting a load of finger noise on the guitar which appears to give the note a triplet form. Plectrum technique on the mandolin seems much cleaner, while the 'birl' as I understand in local (Border) fiddling is a rather dirty sound, a sort of scrunch in the note. At least that's what I can hear on recordings I've made. I've found it easiest to get a similar kind of sound on guitar by using a combination of two or three strings, sequentially pulling off or hammering on very close to the timing of a rapid three-finger arpeggiated chord (1/32nd note timing - bit like a flamenco strum). Finger and nail noise seem quite important. I'm absolutely sure the result is NOT a 'birl' or 'cut' but it sounds appropriate and is identifiably 'Scottish'. I tried talking this whole subject through with John Renbourn, and he was unconcerned by the problem. He just said it was not necessary to think in terms of ornaments used for the fiddle (etc) if playing guitar, and that he would work out ornaments and techniques which were native to the guitar and fitted the tunes, rather than trying to sound like another instrument's manner. I was hoping for useful pointers but he didn't have any. The best result I've been able to manage is in a recording of a guitar piece I've written called 'The Bell Pool'. If anyone is interested I can let them have a URL for a recording and email a TIFF or GIF of the score, which does not attempt to include the actual technique used as I have not the faintest idea how to write it down. I am happy that the tune is reasonable 'in tradition' but I can't see how any fiddler, or anyone using any isntrument apart from a guitar, could play it. It would be as difficult for a fiddler to imitate my 'ornament' is it is for me to imitate a birl. Despite this we all continue to try to play music intended for one instrument on different boxes! David Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Skinner
Toby wrote: I believe Skinner probably would have been fine with that. I highly doubt Skinner was writing tunes with Highlanders in mind. By the time he started writing tunes, the Highlands has already been cleared, and the people who would appreciate the sort of driving strathspeys you need for step dancing were already moved to North America, Australia, or dead.. There were still some folks left behind :) Skinner certainly made the most of a 'highlander' image in some of his stage outfits. Another point though- Skinner was closer to the north-east tradition where a different style of strathspey emerged. As a 'listening' tune, it was often slower, and the tempo varied, typically it slows right down on beginning each part, then accelerates towards the end. It would drive a dancer crazy. As it's more technically difficult (funny keys, your flying spiccato etc) it was picked up by the more classically trained folks who dominated broadcasting until the more recent folk revival. Hence the impression that Scottish music was 'dominated' by this stuff. Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Burrolling, as we posh fowk call it
Nigel wrote: This subject has provoked the biggest thread I've seen on Scots-L, so it's obviously extremely important. Of course I'm completely eaten up with jealousy because I'm not a fiddler. I don't even know whether I birl - how can you tell? [1]. I shouldn't think it's physically possible on the mandolin, but what about the whistle? I expect my proportion would be 1:1:27 (something to ask at your next session: "Hi there, what's your proportion in a birl?"). As Toby said, the equivalent on mandolin would be yir triplet- as typified by the Shetland-style banjo- comes out like machine-gun fire. Or listen to Jim Sutherland on the cittern (Easy Club recordings). On the whistle, it's much more common to hear rolls or other fingerings used instead, but there is a more Scotch style if you listen to recordings of Jimmy Greenan or Alex Green, who used tonguing to get that birl effect. Recently there's Brian Finnegan from the north of Ireland who seems influenced by that flute band thing, and does amazing things with whistles and high pitched flutes (recorded with his own band, Upstairs in a Tent, Flook). He is an outstanding musician and composer. Nigel, you seem a bit confused by the whole subject of birls. Maybe you could head west of your semi-highland fastness, to Glesgae and visit the Birl Collection, where there are examples from all over the world. Derek Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Rocking Step
Talking of Scott Skinner, someone asked me for his tune "Scott Skinner's Rockin' Step"... The term is almost certainly a dancing reference, although in 18th century Scotland a "Rocking" was the Lowland equivalent of the Highland "ceilidh". That's interesting. I had always just assumed that the title referred to the Rocking Step of the Highland Fling. - Kate D. -- Kate Dunlay David Greenberg Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada http://www.total.net/~dungreen Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] TORONTO-AREA SONG NIGHT
Gabh òran/Abair amhráin!/ Give a Song! Cumann/Comann na Maoile Dé hAoine/Di-hAoine 23 Feabhra/Gearran Friday, Feb. 23, 7:30 p.m. Emerald Isle Seniors Society 824 Danforth Avenue in TORONTO East of Pape Subway Station an informal evening of Irish and Scottish Gaelic songs, stories and comhrá/còmhradh. Come and learn a new song with us, and share in the rich Gaelic tradition shared by Scotland and Ireland. For information call Deborah 416-703-1890 OR [EMAIL PROTECTED] or Séamas 905-476-3040 / 416-567-8304 _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Ian's enquiry (was: [scots-l] Official scots-l site)
At 23:43 -0500 15/2/01, Ian Adkins wrote: A'm sorrie tae hear tha Erica, whit were ye daen drinkin pesticides? A howp yer better soon sae ye kin get back oot intae th sunshine amang th gum trees. Whit's th prognosis gin ye dinna mind me spierin o it? Hello Ian, I've been ill for 15 years, and my doctor says very few people with this sort of problem ever really get over it, but there's a good chance I'll get some sort of life back as long as I stay right away from toxic substances, because my system can't detoxify them as others' can. This is really hard to do in this day and age where these substances are everywhere, but it's better than being ill in bed. I'll get back to my fiddle eventually, I'm sure of it. best, Erica Mackenzie Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Birlin' ( continued )
Toby Rider wrote: I think his stratshpeys had too many different notes and not enough repetition to be good step dance strathspeys. :-) The very same qualities that make them good tunes to listen to, make them not as powerful for step dancing. I believe Skinner probably would have been fine with that. I highly doubt Skinner was writing tunes with Highlanders in mind. By the time he started writing tunes, the Highlands has already been cleared, and the people who would appreciate the sort of driving strathspeys you need for step dancing were already moved to North America, Australia, or dead.. I certainly am far removed from the depth of history in this field compared to those who have been carrying this discussion and I had no idea how far this discussion would go when I originally asked for information on the ornament but I have been reading certain articles concerning J. Scott and his fiddle dance. Here are a few quotes concerning his relation to dance fiddle. ... "It was nothing unusual for Peter" ( Peter being his brother ) "and me to trudge eight or ten weary miles on a slushy wet night in order to fulfill a barn engagement". And he describes a typical dance of the 1850s, held in a building with an earthen floor, lit by tallow dips mounted on wall brackets and the 'orchestra' consisting of fiddle, cello and flute. " "He studied under a dancing master, William Scott, and thereafter adopted 'Scott' as his own middle name. While dancing, as much as fiddle playing, would be his livelihood for years to come, was it really in homage to his instructor that he changed his name? " " With almost a year's tuition in dancing from Wm. Scott, "Professor" of Elocution, Stoneywood, J. Scott Skinner now held dancing classes in the district as far out as Alford. He actually beat the renowned John M'Neill of Edinburgh in a sword-dance competition in Ireland in 1862 and the following year played The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell and The Marquis of Tullybardine at a grand strathspey and reel competition in Inverness, thereby gaining the first prize and ousting perhaps the best players in Joseph Lowe's Edinburgh Band. When he subsequently extended his field of activities to the Ballater district his reputation soon reached the ears of the Queen, who requested him to teach the tenantry at Balmoral callisthenics and dancing. In 1868 he claimed to have 125 pupils there." "1868, aged twenty five, he was working as a dance teacher to the tenantry at the palace of Balmoral. He established, with both dance and violin teaching, a practice apparently successful enough to allow him, around 1870, to marry fellow-dancer Jane Stuart." Pete Cooper Article MT007 .. As I understand from these quotes and other readings concerning Skinners fiddle and dancing, he must have been highly versed in both and to have been taught by by a professional dancer such as Wm. Scott and to have been requested by the Queen to teach dancing at the Balmoral callisthenics and dancing. "He actually beat the renowned John M'Neill of Edinburgh in a sword-dance competition in Ireland in 1862 and the following year played The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell and The Marquis of Tullybardine at a grand strathspey and reel competition in Inverness." Is the sword-dance traditional highland? I always thought it to be. I also understand that his dancing and some of his fiddle tunes must have been at times - of a more professional style rather than that of the highlanders tradition as Toby mentioned. Perhaps his earlier years reflected a more traditional style as the above quotes reflect on his and his brothers experience trudging "eight or ten weary miles on a slushy wet night in order to fulfill a barn engagement". " And he describes a typical dance of the 1850s, held in a building with an earthen floor, lit by tallow dips mounted on wall brackets and the 'orchestra' consisting of fiddle, cello and flute. " This sounds to me to be a deep, visceral association to the folk traditions of Scottish music. All in all..( and again, with my limited historical knowledge - but wanting to know more ) it seems to me that Skinner must have had a deep appreciation for both the folk dance fiddle tunes as well as the more highly articulated "violin" music and the developing mixture of the two we know now as "traditional" Scottish repertoire and penned tunes that could be considered mixtures of his life experiences. I trust that as his career developed that he certainly knew more about what was considered in vogue in both folk and classical music for his society in his era and taught dancing played his fiddle wrote tunes accordingly. Albeit...highland music, in particular, wasn't mentioned in
[scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
I need some help. After spending many hours in the library and countless more searching the internet, I've decided to ask my friends for help. I have finished writing a book of "familiar melodies" for beginning players of the clarsach. I have one tune that is giving me trouble, and I am just about ready to cut it from the book, but I really don't want to. That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) The ancestor of this song is "The Unfortunate Rake". I have been trying to find a citation for that song, and for the melody. My research indicates that it was published as a broadside in London in 1790, but I can't find any copy of that. Does anyone know an early printing of this melody? Early words, that pre-date the American ones? Any ideas or leads will be VERY welcome. I want to go to press so I can get this project off my desk, and move on to the next one! Thank you, even if all you can do for me is read this far! --Cynthia Cathcart Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] The Unfortunate Rake
That tune is known in America as "the Streets of Laredo". Someone here claims copyright to those words and the familiar melody (also used for the Bard of Armagh) and that someone will not allow me permission to use it if I sell the book outside of the U.S., which as a book for the CLARSACH I most certainly want to do! (All the other tunes in the book are public domain.) Cynthia - I'm really really surprised that someone actually claims this song.. And that the claim would deter you. I seem to recall that I first came across the tune and words for the Streets of Laredo" in an old John/Allan Lomax book and it had to have been collected some time before that. I didn't think there'd be any tunes in those collections that would be copyrightable. After all, they were pirated by the Lomaxes. :-) I'll have to go dig in my books in storage to find what I'm remembering. Maybe there's even a reference to the Unfortunate Rake. I'll look tomorrow. John -- 90 Trefethen Ave Peaks Island, ME 04108 Tel 207-766-5797 Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
