[scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Whenever modes come up, it seems to polarise folk on the list. You need to know about modes v why is it worth knowing about this. I had an experience recently with a tune which we were playing for a particular purpose. It was Morrison's (jig) which is Irish in origin but much loved, with a life of its own in Scotland. A double bass player looked at the sheet music and played along with the tune. He then complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune ( I do hope I got this bit right) was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? Philip -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Philip Whittaker wrote: A double bass player...complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune...was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Good to see you again, Philip. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Sometimes even when learnt aurally, problems arise: I played before in a band where the guitar player hadn't a traditional/folk music background but a pop/bossa/blues one and he used to play minor chords to dorian or even mixolydian tunes (we played a jig set, Scarce o'tatties/Slieve Russell/Calliope House, and until we reach the final Dmajor all the chords were minor, well, he actually thought that the set was made of two tunes!) I think that knowledge of modes help, it's not particularly difficult to understand and put in practice (here Jack's tutorial helped me a lot, thanks Jack); I agree with Nigel in that there's no need to know them to play them, the same that there's no need to know that a jig is in 6/8 to play it in good time nor to be able to read music to play a tune, but I also agree with Matt in the idea of one thing complementing the other. I've played many years with almost no theory knowledge, and the fact of learning a little of practical theory maybe didn't make me a better musician, but it helped me to understand some whys and hows of my playing. Cheers, Manuel Waldesco Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
I may have missed some of this thread. The bass player wasn't really wrong. Standard notation practice (not folk musicians notation practice) would be to write an E Dorian tune with the E minor/G major key signature of one sharp (F#) and then sharp the individual Cs in the tune. It needs to be explained to a classical musician that in traditional music it's a common practice to use a key signature that represents the mode, in this case dorian. The folk notation practice is not standard. We do it because it's useful for our purposes. - Original Message From: Nigel Gatherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously) Date: 07/17/03 09:30 Philip Whittaker wrote: A double bass player...complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune...was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Good to see you again, Philip. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Norwegain reels
I've been recentlylistening to an album by Norwegian fiddler, trump player and whistler Anon Egeland. He plays traditional music from the Agder region in Southern Norway. Alongside the usual repertoire of Norwegian dance tunes (halling, hambo, polka...) there are two 'rilen'. This is the first time I've found a traditional reel in a Scandinavian context (in fact, first time outside the British Isles and America). Does anybody know more about this subject? Anon Egeland just mention that one characteristic of the Adger reelsis the asymmetrical structure. I just wonder that we have here an example of Scottish influence on a Norwegian tradition... Anyway, here it is the tune in ABC: X:2T:FjellrilenR:reelD:Anon Egeland, 'Anon'Z:Manuel WaldescoO:NorwayA:AgderM:4/4L:1/8K:Aef|:a2A2A2ce|a2A2A2Bc|d2dddfed|c2ee ecee|fdff fagf||e^dee fe=dc|BAGA eBAG|1A2A2 A2ef:|2A2A2 A4||:E2cccBcd|efdefde2|E2cccBcd|efdefdee|e^dee f=dBG|A2A2A4:||
[scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Dan Mozell wrote: I may have missed some of this thread. The bass player wasn't really wrong. Standard notation practice (not folk musicians notation practice) would be to write an E Dorian tune with the E minor/G major key signature of one sharp (F#) and then sharp the individual Cs in the tune. It needs to be explained to a classical musician that in traditional music it's a common practice to use a key signature that represents the mode, in this case dorian. The folk notation practice is not standard. We do it because it's useful for our purposes. I wasn't saying anybody is wrong. I propose that by trying to notate traditional music you're trying to make a round peg fit a square hole. Notation is an approximation of a tune, and imposing notation rules on a form which is essentially aural doesn't mean that written notation rules apply to that tune. It may help a notation-literate musician to think of a tune as being in E minor with a sharpened C, but that doesn't mean that that's an accurate description of what the tune is. Again, it may help fiddlers to think of the pipe scale as an scale of A with a flattened G, but that is not actually what the pipe scale is. I'm not saying you /shouldn't/ notate traditional music, and I'm certainly not saying that knowledge of modes or musical theory is a bad thing. My point of view is only that it's not at all /necessary/ to have that knowledge to play traditional music. Jim Dawson, I believe, is talking about improvisation which is a whole different colour of horse, and not a subject which immediately comes to mind in a discussion of Scottish music. I remember in my green youth getting very excited about my first exposure to pibroch; I asked my older friend how much improvisation was involved. I was surprised when he said None at all! I had thought that the piper was supplied with the ground, and each subsequent variation was his own interpretation. Course I was listening to a lot of Bird and Miles at the time. (How's that for show boating, Jim?). -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
A double bass player looked at the sheet music and played along with the tune. He then complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune ( I do hope I got this bit right) was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? Didn't the bass player notice that the chords (or the bass notes of them anyway) weren't exactly what you'd expect for a true minor tune? No fair complaining about only half the story. - Kate D. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Oswald
I am listening right now to a sonata by Oswald, The Virgin's Bower which will be on the forthcoming Ferintosh CD (David Greenberg, fiddle - Abby Newton, cello - Kim Robertson, harp). It's the most baroque art music of anything on there, but there is other crossover between trad and baroque on the CD. - Kate D. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Even Gaelic isn't safe!
Toby Rider said: Can you believe it? http://www.tonguetied.us/archives/000643.php Oh, I believe it. Have you seen any textbooks recently? Everything has been sanitized. I keep imagine little workers bees in blue coveralls buzzing around the basement of the Ministry of Truth rewriting six-month-old newspaper articles to better suit the current party line. What's more boggling is that Americans are, as a whole, growing more conservative and reactionary even as speech and publications are being corrected for racial/gender/sexual sensitivities. Dare I say -- and I remind you, this is coming from a nominal leftist -- that liberals are actually causing their political marginalization? I'm fairly pink in the center but listening to some of this crap almost turns me off on liberalism. I've always interprested racism, sexism and bigotry in general as the institutionalized ignorance of the lower economic classes producing a xenophobia exploited by the ruling economic classes for personal gain -- e.g., politicians, businessmen, lawyers, some clergy. The inherent evil of anything WASP-ish does not enter into my evaluation of bigotry. I want to tell all these so-called liberals to look at the dynamics of power trusts and the buying of influence, and you'll see how the middle-class has been pitted against the lower classes, and poor whites against poor blacks. Lay the blame where it belongs -- on upper-class power-mongers and -brokers -- and maybe you'll stop alienating rank-and-file voters against progressive politics. Okay, that's my rant. Flame me off-list, please! -- Dr. Ian J. L. Adkins Staff Officer for Communications Services District Nine ER, Division Three U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Jim Dawson, I believe, is talking about improvisation which is a whole different colour of horse, and not a subject which immediately comes to mind in a discussion of Scottish music. I remember in my green youth getting very excited about my first exposure to pibroch; I asked my older friend how much improvisation was involved. I was surprised when he said None at all! I had thought that the piper was supplied with the ground, and each subsequent variation was his own interpretation. Course I was listening to a lot of Bird and Miles at the time. (How's that for show boating, Jim?). Which is too bad, because improvisation is a cool thing. All of those blues solos are built around improvisation on altered pentatonic scales.. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Jim Dawson, I believe, is talking about improvisation which is a whole different colour of horse, and not a subject which immediately comes to mind in a discussion of Scottish music. I remember in my green youth getting very excited about my first exposure to pibroch; I asked my older friend how much improvisation was involved. I was surprised when he said None at all! This might be true amongst...dare I say it...the more senior traditional musicians amongst us, but in my humble opinion that is changing rapidly where younger musicians are concerned. Take Shooglenifty, Peatbog Fairies, Afro Celt Sound System, Sandy Brechin...for example, they are playing Scottish (or at least traditional orientated) music and twisting it out of the fixed ideal of what Scottish music was. Improvisation, I feel, is important to doing that successfully. Just as Blues and later Rock was formed from the variation of African influences in Gumbo square New Orleans, our own Scottish music is evolving into something more modern..and it is keeping it alive among younger audiences. On the subject of Pibroch, I had a spell at Perth College studying Traditional music and was involved various projects with Alan MacDonald who was tutoring the pipes. I had a great interest in piproch (though not my primary instrument) and was actively encouraged by Alan to improvise over it, and.sacrilege at it's utmost.mix modern dance rhythms over it. It sounded superb. He in fact wrote a thesis on the subject of pibroch and his conclusion was that modern pibroch, to which you refer was actually a fabrication of what real pibroch was. The original was much more loose and free to the players imagination. If I can obtain a copy of this I will let you know. Of course this all ties in with the late Seamus McNeil who was as strict as they come where pibroch was concerned, and publicly slated Gordon Duncan for his take on the tradition. Hence the title of Gordon's album Just for Seamus.I have heard it said this was in defiant response to his heckling. So it may not go down well with the sticklers of tradition but it will keep Scottish music alive for the future, and in my 'relative' youth am all for it. Toby Rider wrote: Is it so narrow minded to wish that these folks could get recognized for their talents hard work?? Is that so sad? NO, but that is not what you said. Anyway point taken and matter closed, perhaps I was a little harsh in my judgement. Jim Dawson. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Jim Dawson wrote: This might be true amongst...dare I say it...the more senior traditional musicians amongst us, but in my humble opinion that is changing rapidly where younger musicians are concerned. Take Shooglenifty, Peatbog Fairies, Afro Celt Sound System, Sandy Brechin...for example, they are playing Scottish (or at least traditional orientated) music and twisting it out of the fixed ideal of what Scottish music was. Improvisation, I feel, is important to doing that successfully. You know, I used to be against improv as far as traditional music went. However I started having to learn to improvise on the fly for solos when I started branching out into playing other forms of music.. I got some exposure as to how it can strengthen a musical genre.. Now I think it's a good thing.. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Modal Tunes (but seriously)
I had an experience recently with a tune which we were playing for a particular purpose. It was Morrison's (jig) which is Irish in origin but much loved, with a life of its own in Scotland. A double bass player looked at the sheet music and played along with the tune. He then complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune (I do hope I got this bit right) was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? God made bass players to plunk not think. Here's something he can plunk; I tried to come up with a bass line/ countermelody. (Almost everybody would do the same thing in the first part, I think; the second is less obvious). X:1 T:Morrison's Jig M:6/8 L:1/8 Q:3/8=124 % the following two lines are BarFly-isms V:1 midi program 1 11 V:2 bass middle=d transpose -24 midi program 1 33 K:E Dorian [V:1] E2E BAB|E2B AFD|EDE BAB|dcB AFD|E2E BAB|EBE AFD|G3 FGA|dAG FED:| [V:2] e6 |e3 d3 |e6 |G3 D3 |e6 |e3 d3 |e3 d3 |G3 D3 :| % [V:1] B2e fee|aee fed|Bee fee|fag fed|Bee fee|aee fee|gfe d2A|BAG FED | [V:2] e3 B3 |A3 B2G|G3 B3 |d3 B3 |e3 B3 |A3 B2E|E3 F3 |G3 A3 | % [V:1] Bee fee|aee fed|Bee fee|faf def|g2f g2e|def g2d|edc d2A|BAG FED|] [V:2] e3 B3 |A3 B2G|G3 B3 |d3 A3 |d3 B3 |A3 B2D|G3 F3 |E3 D3 |] It doesn't use any C's at all. The tune is nearly hexatonic (you would hardly notice if that c were made natural or avoided by lengthening the previous d) and the countermelody is completely so. Challenge him to come up with something similar featuring a C natural that doesn't sound wrong. (Well actually God also made Mingus, who could undoubtedly think, but Mingus knew what the dorian mode was). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. off-list mail to j-c rather than scots-l at this site, please Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
