Re: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Standard notation practice (not folk musicians notation practice) would be to write an E Dorian tune with the E minor/G major key signature of one sharp (F#) and then sharp the individual Cs in the tune. It needs to be explained to a classical musician that in traditional music it's a common practice to use a key signature that represents the mode, in this case dorian. The folk notation practice is not standard. We do it because it's useful for our purposes. The distinction you're describing only applies to classical music from a very short period, roughly 1750-1880. Up to Bach's time the usual practice was to write minor-key music in a dorian key signature and use accidentals on the sixth. (Probably a holdover from liturgical practice, where aeolian wasn't a recognized mode). Since the folk practice has been applied continuously in English and Scottish music since Ravenscroft's time, anybody who doesn't get it has some catching up to do. I think the first publisher of Scottish tunes to use minor as a catchall term also including dorian was Surenne, around 1840. The Gows use a different terminology, like in E with the flat 3d. - no comment on what the sixth might be. This looks odd to a modern reader but is actually more sensible. The point of printing it in the score was presumably so the fiddler could communicate it to a cello player vamping an accompaniment with nothing on paper, like Philip's bassist... - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. off-list mail to j-c rather than scots-l at this site, please Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
The distinction you're describing only applies to classical music from a very short period, roughly 1750-1880. What about 1880 to 2003? http://www.danmozell.com Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Philip Whittaker wrote: A double bass player...complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune...was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Good to see you again, Philip. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Sometimes even when learnt aurally, problems arise: I played before in a band where the guitar player hadn't a traditional/folk music background but a pop/bossa/blues one and he used to play minor chords to dorian or even mixolydian tunes (we played a jig set, Scarce o'tatties/Slieve Russell/Calliope House, and until we reach the final Dmajor all the chords were minor, well, he actually thought that the set was made of two tunes!) I think that knowledge of modes help, it's not particularly difficult to understand and put in practice (here Jack's tutorial helped me a lot, thanks Jack); I agree with Nigel in that there's no need to know them to play them, the same that there's no need to know that a jig is in 6/8 to play it in good time nor to be able to read music to play a tune, but I also agree with Matt in the idea of one thing complementing the other. I've played many years with almost no theory knowledge, and the fact of learning a little of practical theory maybe didn't make me a better musician, but it helped me to understand some whys and hows of my playing. Cheers, Manuel Waldesco Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
I may have missed some of this thread. The bass player wasn't really wrong. Standard notation practice (not folk musicians notation practice) would be to write an E Dorian tune with the E minor/G major key signature of one sharp (F#) and then sharp the individual Cs in the tune. It needs to be explained to a classical musician that in traditional music it's a common practice to use a key signature that represents the mode, in this case dorian. The folk notation practice is not standard. We do it because it's useful for our purposes. - Original Message From: Nigel Gatherer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously) Date: 07/17/03 09:30 Philip Whittaker wrote: A double bass player...complained that it was in two sharps but was in E minor. My explanation that it was a dorian not an aeolian tune...was greeted with some derision. OK, if modes do not mean anything to you how do you explain this one? That's a case where a music education was a hindrance rather than an advantage. Had the bassist learned the tune aurally it would not have occurred to him to question whether it was in a minor key or dorian; it should just have sounded right. If it didn't, the further education he'd need would be with his ears rather than his intellect. In my opinion. Good to see you again, Philip. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Jim Dawson wrote: ...I do not see any real information regarding modes coming out in this discussion, plenty of show boating about how much music history they know and nothing about how to use modes in real life music. In my humble opinion, you do not need to know anything about modes in order to use them in real life music. All of us used modes, irregular rhythms, gap scales, polyrhythms, micro tones and syncopation before we were five years old. It's interesting to analyse music but _not_ knowing why we play certain things in certain ways doesn't _prevent_ us from making music. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Toby Rider wrote: ...Obviously there are some genuine talents sandwiched between the Christina Aguilera [Snip] I thought her last single was good. The one where she has a terrible wind problem in a phone booth. And in another recent song (Dirty) she wore a lovely kilt, although I couldn't tell which tartan it was. And it was fairly obvious that she isn't a true Scotsman, if you know what I mean. The absolutely wonderful thing about music is that there's room for all kinds. A heartening thing is that many people of all ages are discovering that the best music of all is the music you participate in, whether you're a musician, a dancer, a singer or a foot-tapper. We are the world, we are the children Let's have a virtual session. I suggest we start off with Highland Whisky/Gillie Callum/The Perth Hunt/John McNeil/Trip to Windsor What'll we play next? Toby? Jack? Jim? -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Modal Tunes (but seriously)
Nigel Gatherer wrote: Toby Rider wrote: ...Obviously there are some genuine talents sandwiched between the Christina Aguilera [Snip] I thought her last single was good. The one where she has a terrible wind problem in a phone booth. And in another recent song (Dirty) she wore a lovely kilt, although I couldn't tell which tartan it was. And it was fairly obvious that she isn't a true Scotsman, if you know what I mean. LOL.. Leave it to Nigel to bring humor to the situation :-) Let's have a virtual session. I suggest we start off with Highland Whisky/Gillie Callum/The Perth Hunt/John McNeil/Trip to Windsor What'll we play next? Toby? Jack? Jim? How about The Braes of Mar/Jenny Dang The Weaver/Molly Rankin's/Catchin' Rabbits. A few tunes in D. What's next? Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
