Re: Mail list support?

[btell...@apache.org]

Hello Marc.

I use IntelliJ community edition as an IDE. Maven support turns out to
be very handly.

Benoit

On 12/08/2021 23:45, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
> Thanks Benoit, Garry for your responses and sorry for the delay in responding 
> myself. I will be happy to take a look at the mail list code (existing and 
> developing) as my time permits, and sharing and working with you on it. It 
> has been awhile since I last developed some of my own mailets and matchers so 
> I will need to get back up to speed. 
>
> Before I embark on such an adventure, can you tell me if Apache James is set 
> up to work in the Eclipse IDE? I much prefer working with an IDE rather than 
> using stand-alone tools. If not, does anyone have Emacs set up to meet the 
> coding standards and requirements for Apache James? If so I could use any 
> jump start config files needed to work in either of these environments?
>
>Thanks, Marc
>
>
> On 8/7/21 11:50 PM, btell...@apache.org wrote:
>> Hello Marc,
>>
>> There is a lot to say, but we would, I guess, gladly accept mailing list
>> lie contributions on the master development branch in a separated module.
>>
>> I personally would enjoy providing professional support implementing
>> such a feature if needed.
>>
>> Mailing list support is however out of scope for the current version -
>> no ETA should be expected out of it.
>>
>> James is also a flexible email platform: everyone can develop their own
>> mailet/matchers and implement mailing lists without it ever needing to
>> land on the mainstream James project.
>>
>> That being said, I have doubts about the
>> one-mail-server-to-rule-them-all approach IMO have some limits. Mailing
>> list are well handled by mature software (eg: mailman) easy to use in
>> combination with any email server, including James. I hardly see the
>> need to include yet-another complex feature in the scope of Apache
>> James, but that is my own opinion (however I agree documentation / links
>> to tutorials on that set up could be handy - contribution welcome there
>> too). I would rather invest on our strength as a project, and rely on
>> tier software to complement our weaknesses. Mailing list but also spam
>> detection, and why not mail exchange (MX) are IMO good examples of where
>> James benefits from being coupled with other systems. (If you have a
>> hammer, maybe you should not use it on screws.)
>>
>> Note that we have some feature covering some of the very basics:
>> Recipient Rewrite Table allows some kind of group alias but client
>> subscription / resignation, header setup are not taken into account by
>> this approach. Also concerning archiving PonyMail hosted by the ASF
>> allows to do so.
>>
>> On 08/08/2021 09:29, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
>>> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or
>>> two I come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are
>>> supported yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in
>>> the latest version of Apache James. And every year or two I am
>>> disappointed that the documentation for mailets and matchers has not
>>> changed and it appears that only a couple of experimental matchers are
>>> supplied as part of the standard set of mailets. Not having support
>>> for mail lists is a show stopper for me/us and for a number of other
>>> reasons I would like to upgrade our servers to the current version of
>>> James, but can't.
>>>
>>> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
>>> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James
>>> and invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there
>>> undocumented support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems
>>> weird that only a couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder
>>> still that the James team is apparently not using it's own current
>>> server to support it's own mail list for this list - 
>>> server-user@james.apache.org!
>> We are volunteers, and rely on the ASF INFRA team for all project
>> resource management: website, code base, build, JIRA, and yes mails.
>>
>> It's handy, and the INFRA people does an amazing job at managing all of
>> this! I admit that it is tempting to rely on them rather than setting up
>> our own custom stuff...
>>
>> Use your own dogfood - I know - that's what I do as part of my job in my
>> company, but I personally would lack time to support James adoption
>> within the ASF.
>>
>> Note: there had been previous discussion on backing the ASF mail stack
>> with James servers. I can't recall why this didn't happen - that was
>> before I on-boarded the project.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Benoit
>>>     Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!    Marc C
>>> -- 
>>>
>>> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>>>
>>> *_   _   .   .   .       .   .   .   _   _       .   _   _   _   _   .
>>>       .   .   .           _   .   .       .           .   _   _      
>>> .   _       _   _   .   .   .       .   _   _   .       _   .   .   

Re: Mail list support?

[Garry Hurley]

As for ‘set up’ to work in eclipse, I can tell you that if there is not an
eclipse project in the source tree, you can easily import the files into
it. As for custom mailers and marchers, you can do whatever you like as far
as an IDE as long as you check in and commit only what you need to check in
(I. E. Your mailet and marcher code and any ‘helper’ or test classes).

On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 12:46 PM Marc Chamberlin
 wrote:

> Thanks Benoit, Garry for your responses and sorry for the delay in responding 
> myself. I will be happy to take a look at the mail list code (existing and 
> developing) as my time permits, and sharing and working with you on it. It 
> has been awhile since I last developed some of my own mailets and matchers so 
> I will need to get back up to speed.
>
> Before I embark on such an adventure, can you tell me if Apache James is set 
> up to work in the Eclipse IDE? I much prefer working with an IDE rather than 
> using stand-alone tools. If not, does anyone have Emacs set up to meet the 
> coding standards and requirements for Apache James? If so I could use any 
> jump start config files needed to work in either of these environments?
>
>Thanks, Marc
>
>
>
> On 8/7/21 11:50 PM, btell...@apache.org wrote:
>
> Hello Marc,
>
> There is a lot to say, but we would, I guess, gladly accept mailing list
> lie contributions on the master development branch in a separated module.
>
> I personally would enjoy providing professional support implementing
> such a feature if needed.
>
> Mailing list support is however out of scope for the current version -
> no ETA should be expected out of it.
>
> James is also a flexible email platform: everyone can develop their own
> mailet/matchers and implement mailing lists without it ever needing to
> land on the mainstream James project.
>
> That being said, I have doubts about the
> one-mail-server-to-rule-them-all approach IMO have some limits. Mailing
> list are well handled by mature software (eg: mailman) easy to use in
> combination with any email server, including James. I hardly see the
> need to include yet-another complex feature in the scope of Apache
> James, but that is my own opinion (however I agree documentation / links
> to tutorials on that set up could be handy - contribution welcome there
> too). I would rather invest on our strength as a project, and rely on
> tier software to complement our weaknesses. Mailing list but also spam
> detection, and why not mail exchange (MX) are IMO good examples of where
> James benefits from being coupled with other systems. (If you have a
> hammer, maybe you should not use it on screws.)
>
> Note that we have some feature covering some of the very basics:
> Recipient Rewrite Table allows some kind of group alias but client
> subscription / resignation, header setup are not taken into account by
> this approach. Also concerning archiving PonyMail hosted by the ASF
> allows to do so.
>
> On 08/08/2021 09:29, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
>
> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or
> two I come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are
> supported yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in
> the latest version of Apache James. And every year or two I am
> disappointed that the documentation for mailets and matchers has not
> changed and it appears that only a couple of experimental matchers are
> supplied as part of the standard set of mailets. Not having support
> for mail lists is a show stopper for me/us and for a number of other
> reasons I would like to upgrade our servers to the current version of
> James, but can't.
>
> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James
> and invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there
> undocumented support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems
> weird that only a couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder
> still that the James team is apparently not using it's own current
> server to support it's own mail list for this list - 
> server-user@james.apache.org!
>
> We are volunteers, and rely on the ASF INFRA team for all project
> resource management: website, code base, build, JIRA, and yes mails.
>
> It's handy, and the INFRA people does an amazing job at managing all of
> this! I admit that it is tempting to rely on them rather than setting up
> our own custom stuff...
>
> Use your own dogfood - I know - that's what I do as part of my job in my
> company, but I personally would lack time to support James adoption
> within the ASF.
>
> Note: there had been previous discussion on backing the ASF mail stack
> with James servers. I can't recall why this didn't happen - that was
> before I on-boarded the project.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Benoit
>
> Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!Marc C
> --
>
> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>
> *_   _   .   .   .   .   .   . 

Re: Mail list support?

[Marc Chamberlin]

Thanks Benoit, Garry for your responses and sorry for the delay in responding 
myself. I will be happy to take a look at the mail list code (existing and 
developing) as my time permits, and sharing and working with you on it. It has 
been awhile since I last developed some of my own mailets and matchers so I 
will need to get back up to speed. 

Before I embark on such an adventure, can you tell me if Apache James is set up 
to work in the Eclipse IDE? I much prefer working with an IDE rather than using 
stand-alone tools. If not, does anyone have Emacs set up to meet the coding 
standards and requirements for Apache James? If so I could use any jump start 
config files needed to work in either of these environments?

   Thanks, Marc


On 8/7/21 11:50 PM, btell...@apache.org wrote:
> Hello Marc,
>
> There is a lot to say, but we would, I guess, gladly accept mailing list
> lie contributions on the master development branch in a separated module.
>
> I personally would enjoy providing professional support implementing
> such a feature if needed.
>
> Mailing list support is however out of scope for the current version -
> no ETA should be expected out of it.
>
> James is also a flexible email platform: everyone can develop their own
> mailet/matchers and implement mailing lists without it ever needing to
> land on the mainstream James project.
>
> That being said, I have doubts about the
> one-mail-server-to-rule-them-all approach IMO have some limits. Mailing
> list are well handled by mature software (eg: mailman) easy to use in
> combination with any email server, including James. I hardly see the
> need to include yet-another complex feature in the scope of Apache
> James, but that is my own opinion (however I agree documentation / links
> to tutorials on that set up could be handy - contribution welcome there
> too). I would rather invest on our strength as a project, and rely on
> tier software to complement our weaknesses. Mailing list but also spam
> detection, and why not mail exchange (MX) are IMO good examples of where
> James benefits from being coupled with other systems. (If you have a
> hammer, maybe you should not use it on screws.)
>
> Note that we have some feature covering some of the very basics:
> Recipient Rewrite Table allows some kind of group alias but client
> subscription / resignation, header setup are not taken into account by
> this approach. Also concerning archiving PonyMail hosted by the ASF
> allows to do so.
>
> On 08/08/2021 09:29, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
>> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or
>> two I come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are
>> supported yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in
>> the latest version of Apache James. And every year or two I am
>> disappointed that the documentation for mailets and matchers has not
>> changed and it appears that only a couple of experimental matchers are
>> supplied as part of the standard set of mailets. Not having support
>> for mail lists is a show stopper for me/us and for a number of other
>> reasons I would like to upgrade our servers to the current version of
>> James, but can't.
>>
>> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
>> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James
>> and invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there
>> undocumented support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems
>> weird that only a couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder
>> still that the James team is apparently not using it's own current
>> server to support it's own mail list for this list - 
>> server-user@james.apache.org!
> We are volunteers, and rely on the ASF INFRA team for all project
> resource management: website, code base, build, JIRA, and yes mails.
>
> It's handy, and the INFRA people does an amazing job at managing all of
> this! I admit that it is tempting to rely on them rather than setting up
> our own custom stuff...
>
> Use your own dogfood - I know - that's what I do as part of my job in my
> company, but I personally would lack time to support James adoption
> within the ASF.
>
> Note: there had been previous discussion on backing the ASF mail stack
> with James servers. I can't recall why this didn't happen - that was
> before I on-boarded the project.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Benoit
>>     Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!    Marc C
>> -- 
>>
>> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>>
>> *_   _   .   .   .       .   .   .   _   _       .   _   _   _   _   .
>>       .   .   .           _   .   .       .           .   _   _      
>> .   _       _   _   .   .   .       .   _   _   .       _   .   .   _
>>       .   _   _           _   _       .   _       .   _   .       _  
>> .   _   . *
>>
>> Computers: the final frontier.
>> These are the voyages of the user Marc.
>> His mission: to explore strange new hardware.
>> To seek out new software and new 

Re: Mail list support?

[btell...@apache.org]

Hello Marc,

There is a lot to say, but we would, I guess, gladly accept mailing list
lie contributions on the master development branch in a separated module.

I personally would enjoy providing professional support implementing
such a feature if needed.

Mailing list support is however out of scope for the current version -
no ETA should be expected out of it.

James is also a flexible email platform: everyone can develop their own
mailet/matchers and implement mailing lists without it ever needing to
land on the mainstream James project.

That being said, I have doubts about the
one-mail-server-to-rule-them-all approach IMO have some limits. Mailing
list are well handled by mature software (eg: mailman) easy to use in
combination with any email server, including James. I hardly see the
need to include yet-another complex feature in the scope of Apache
James, but that is my own opinion (however I agree documentation / links
to tutorials on that set up could be handy - contribution welcome there
too). I would rather invest on our strength as a project, and rely on
tier software to complement our weaknesses. Mailing list but also spam
detection, and why not mail exchange (MX) are IMO good examples of where
James benefits from being coupled with other systems. (If you have a
hammer, maybe you should not use it on screws.)

Note that we have some feature covering some of the very basics:
Recipient Rewrite Table allows some kind of group alias but client
subscription / resignation, header setup are not taken into account by
this approach. Also concerning archiving PonyMail hosted by the ASF
allows to do so.

On 08/08/2021 09:29, Marc Chamberlin wrote:
> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or
> two I come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are
> supported yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in
> the latest version of Apache James. And every year or two I am
> disappointed that the documentation for mailets and matchers has not
> changed and it appears that only a couple of experimental matchers are
> supplied as part of the standard set of mailets. Not having support
> for mail lists is a show stopper for me/us and for a number of other
> reasons I would like to upgrade our servers to the current version of
> James, but can't.
>
> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James
> and invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there
> undocumented support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems
> weird that only a couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder
> still that the James team is apparently not using it's own current
> server to support it's own mail list for this list - 
> server-user@james.apache.org!

We are volunteers, and rely on the ASF INFRA team for all project
resource management: website, code base, build, JIRA, and yes mails.

It's handy, and the INFRA people does an amazing job at managing all of
this! I admit that it is tempting to rely on them rather than setting up
our own custom stuff...

Use your own dogfood - I know - that's what I do as part of my job in my
company, but I personally would lack time to support James adoption
within the ASF.

Note: there had been previous discussion on backing the ASF mail stack
with James servers. I can't recall why this didn't happen - that was
before I on-boarded the project.

Cheers,

Benoit
>
>     Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!    Marc C
> -- 
>
> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>
> *_   _   .   .   .       .   .   .   _   _       .   _   _   _   _   .
>       .   .   .           _   .   .       .           .   _   _      
> .   _       _   _   .   .   .       .   _   _   .       _   .   .   _
>       .   _   _           _   _       .   _       .   _   .       _  
> .   _   . *
>
> Computers: the final frontier.
> These are the voyages of the user Marc.
> His mission: to explore strange new hardware.
> To seek out new software and new applications.
> To boldly go where no Marc has gone before!
>
> (/This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is
> attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this
> email indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My
> public key, which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also,
> can be found at -
> https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=m...@marcchamberlin.com or just ask
> me for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't
> understand all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this
> explanation and ignore the signature key attached to this email (it
> will look like gibberish if you open it) and/or ask me to explain it
> further if you like./)

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: server-user-unsubscr...@james.apache.org
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Re: Mail list support?

[Garry Hurley]

By ‘mail lists’, I assume you mean that by addressing mail to
server-user@james.Apache.org, you would effectively send that message to
everyone who subscribes to that mailing list. As an out of the box
solution, you’re right that such a list is not explicitly implemented, but
you do have an option. You could probably use the experimental matchers
with little issue. The main reason they are marked as ‘experimental’ is
that nobody has bothered to thoroughly test them yet, as that is a
seldom-used functionality. If you try them out and run into issues, report
them and they can be fixed, but there is a backlog of issues that need
work, and unused features are lower priority than more commonly used ones -
we may not like it, but it is a simple fact of life (ever hear the
expression “The squeaky wheel gets the grease?”). I will be happy to look
at this with you if the other devs are too busy.

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:29 PM Marc Chamberlin
 wrote:

> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or two I
> come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are supported
> yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in the latest
> version of Apache James. And every year or two I am disappointed that the
> documentation for mailets and matchers has not changed and it appears that
> only a couple of experimental matchers are supplied as part of the standard
> set of mailets. Not having support for mail lists is a show stopper for
> me/us and for a number of other reasons I would like to upgrade our servers
> to the current version of James, but can't.
>
> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James and
> invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there undocumented
> support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems weird that only a
> couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder still that the James team
> is apparently not using it's own current server to support it's own mail
> list for this list -  server-user@james.apache.org!
>
> Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!Marc C
> --
>
> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>
> *_   _   .   .   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _   _   _   _   .
>   .   .   .   _   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _
>   _   _   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _   .   .   _   .   _   _
>   _   _   .   _   .   _   .   _   .   _   . *
>
> Computers: the final frontier.
> These are the voyages of the user Marc.
> His mission: to explore strange new hardware.
> To seek out new software and new applications.
> To boldly go where no Marc has gone before!
>
> (*This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is
> attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email
> indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key,
> which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at -
> https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=m...@marcchamberlin.com
>  or just ask me
> for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand
> all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore
> the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if
> you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like.*)
>

Re: Mail list support?

[Garry Hurley]

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:29 PM Marc Chamberlin
 wrote:

> Hello - I am still limping along with James 2.3.2 and every year or two I
> come back to the Apache James website to see if mail lists are supported
> yet with the appropriate mailets and matchers necessary, in the latest
> version of Apache James. And every year or two I am disappointed that the
> documentation for mailets and matchers has not changed and it appears that
> only a couple of experimental matchers are supplied as part of the standard
> set of mailets. Not having support for mail lists is a show stopper for
> me/us and for a number of other reasons I would like to upgrade our servers
> to the current version of James, but can't.
>
> My questions are, is mail lists feature ever going to be supported by
> James, if so what is the expected ETA, or should I give up on James and
> invest my time and energy in some other mail server? Is there undocumented
> support for mail lists that I don't know about? It seems weird that only a
> couple of matchers are supplied and even weirder still that the James team
> is apparently not using it's own current server to support it's own mail
> list for this list -  server-user@james.apache.org!
>
> Thanks in advance for thoughts and suggestions!Marc C
> --
>
> *"The Truth is out there" - Spooky*
>
> *_   _   .   .   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _   _   _   _   .
>   .   .   .   _   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _
>   _   _   .   .   .   .   _   _   .   _   .   .   _   .   _   _
>   _   _   .   _   .   _   .   _   .   _   . *
>
> Computers: the final frontier.
> These are the voyages of the user Marc.
> His mission: to explore strange new hardware.
> To seek out new software and new applications.
> To boldly go where no Marc has gone before!
>
> (*This email is digitally signed and the electronic signature is
> attached. If you know how, you can use my public key to prove this email
> indeed came from me and has not been modified in transit. My public key,
> which can be used for sending encrypted email to me also, can be found at -
> https://keys.openpgp.org/search?q=m...@marcchamberlin.com
>  or just ask me
> for it and I will send it to you as an attachment. If you don't understand
> all this geek speak, no worries, just ignore this explanation and ignore
> the signature key attached to this email (it will look like gibberish if
> you open it) and/or ask me to explain it further if you like.*)
>