Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Srini RamaKrishnan]

Assuming knowledge is gathered and presented without an implicit bias
or agenda, which is nearly impossible, the choice of the starting
point on most things in life can radically alter the knowledge.

For example, a logger or poacher will possess a very different
knowledge of a forest from a tribal native; even if the tools used to
acquire their knowledge are the same five senses.

Science, logic and academia present very useful view points, I have no
quarrel with them, but they are not the only point of view, and in my
experience aren't yet the most useful for inquiring into subtle things
with life, like the ways of the spirit or faith which are often full
of paradoxes and non-dual expression.

Like many jokes this one vastly exaggerates the situation, but there
was a drunk who lost his keys in a dark alley; he was later found
looking for it on the main street where there was light. Some times to
get at the truth we need to get on our hands and knees and grope
around and put in a lot more effort than we wish.

I am definitely not helping with your immediate quest with all this
neck beard talk, but I am not sure I'd do a better job than Google or
Amazon in finding your book. This is a more productive discussion in
my world view :)

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Thaths]

My quest is definitely for a book written in an idiom and language I
understand. I am looking for a book that makes its arguments using
contemporary academic tools. In this idiom, words like 'logic', 'history'
and 'academic's are not slights. Which is why John Stratton Hawley's book
sounded promising.

Since I sent my previous email in this thread, I looked more into Hawley's
book (reading snippets in Google Books) and, while it has an interesting
theory to propose, it doesn't quite address the I question I originally
asked.

A friend of mine who is an Indian historian and an academic has pointed me
at some promising academics. I will update this thread when I read a little
on what they have to say.

Thaths

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:58 PM Srini RamaKrishnan  wrote:

> Historians and academicians of religion can occasionally be guilty of
> approaching an intuitive and lived experience largely beyond the grasp of
> the intellect with the cold stare of logic and ambition. They are like a
> computer generated Mondrian, or a film set of Auschwitz, they don't carry
> the life spirit no matter how accurate they get.
>
> This reminds me of a joke, there is an ambitious novice monk somewhere who
> is so fast he finishes an hour's meditation in fifteen minutes.
>
>
> On Jun 22, 2017 10:18 AM, "Sriram Karra"  wrote:
>
> I would love to hear your views on the book once you have read it. I am
> basically alarmed / amused by the blurbs on amazon.com (partly reproduced
> below) which go against everything we as practicing Hindus have learned.
>
> *"Challenging this canonical narrative, John Stratton Hawley clarifies the
> historical and political contingencies that gave birth to the concept of
> the bhakti movement. Starting with the Mughals and their Kachvaha allies,
> North Indian groups looked to the Hindu South as a resource that would give
> religious and linguistic depth to their own collective history. Only in the
> early twentieth century did the idea of a bhakti “movement” crystallize―in
> the intellectual circle surrounding Rabindranath Tagore in Bengal." *
>
> (Emphasis added)
>
> Perhaps the author is defining the "Bhakti Movement" (or at a minimum the
> word "crystallize" in that context) in a very specific way ...
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Thaths  wrote:
>
> > This book seems to be the one I am looking for:
> >
> > A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
> >  by John Stratton Hawley.
> >
> > Thaths
> >
> > On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 3:52 PM Thaths  wrote:
> >
> > > I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual
> spread
> > > of the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand
> > of
> > > Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and
> > cultural
> > > conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.
> > >
> > > Have you come across such a book?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thaths
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Srini RamaKrishnan]

Historians and academicians of religion can occasionally be guilty of
approaching an intuitive and lived experience largely beyond the grasp of
the intellect with the cold stare of logic and ambition. They are like a
computer generated Mondrian, or a film set of Auschwitz, they don't carry
the life spirit no matter how accurate they get.

This reminds me of a joke, there is an ambitious novice monk somewhere who
is so fast he finishes an hour's meditation in fifteen minutes.


On Jun 22, 2017 10:18 AM, "Sriram Karra"  wrote:

I would love to hear your views on the book once you have read it. I am
basically alarmed / amused by the blurbs on amazon.com (partly reproduced
below) which go against everything we as practicing Hindus have learned.

*"Challenging this canonical narrative, John Stratton Hawley clarifies the
historical and political contingencies that gave birth to the concept of
the bhakti movement. Starting with the Mughals and their Kachvaha allies,
North Indian groups looked to the Hindu South as a resource that would give
religious and linguistic depth to their own collective history. Only in the
early twentieth century did the idea of a bhakti “movement” crystallize―in
the intellectual circle surrounding Rabindranath Tagore in Bengal." *

(Emphasis added)

Perhaps the author is defining the "Bhakti Movement" (or at a minimum the
word "crystallize" in that context) in a very specific way ...

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Thaths  wrote:

> This book seems to be the one I am looking for:
>
> A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
>  by John Stratton Hawley.
>
> Thaths
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 3:52 PM Thaths  wrote:
>
> > I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual spread
> > of the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand
> of
> > Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and
> cultural
> > conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.
> >
> > Have you come across such a book?
> >
> >
> > Thaths
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Sriram Karra]

I would love to hear your views on the book once you have read it. I am
basically alarmed / amused by the blurbs on amazon.com (partly reproduced
below) which go against everything we as practicing Hindus have learned.

*"Challenging this canonical narrative, John Stratton Hawley clarifies the
historical and political contingencies that gave birth to the concept of
the bhakti movement. Starting with the Mughals and their Kachvaha allies,
North Indian groups looked to the Hindu South as a resource that would give
religious and linguistic depth to their own collective history. Only in the
early twentieth century did the idea of a bhakti “movement” crystallize―in
the intellectual circle surrounding Rabindranath Tagore in Bengal." *

(Emphasis added)

Perhaps the author is defining the "Bhakti Movement" (or at a minimum the
word "crystallize" in that context) in a very specific way ...

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:13 PM, Thaths  wrote:

> This book seems to be the one I am looking for:
>
> A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
>  by John Stratton Hawley.
>
> Thaths
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 3:52 PM Thaths  wrote:
>
> > I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual spread
> > of the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand
> of
> > Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and
> cultural
> > conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.
> >
> > Have you come across such a book?
> >
> >
> > Thaths
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Srini RamaKrishnan]

Your effusive endorsement speaks to your generous nature.

The Upanishads (literally meaning to sit near the guru and listen) says
this of the challenge of writing about the spirit - "Language takes to its
heels in fright when faced with the prospect of describing the ineffable".

Apropos "Division is violence...", that's a rabbit hole that can keep one
gainfully engaged for years, but it's worth the price of admission in my
experience.

The relative world of man cannot completely dispense with violence, try as
hard as the Jains may to brush their walking path with peacock feathers.
However the absolute world of the spirit has no room for violence.

The spirit is about being, and humans are about doing. If there was any
truth in advertising we'd perhaps be called human doings. It's a fortuitous
name all the same.

Where there are moving parts, as in daily life there has to be wear and
tear, some violence is naturally expected. We can do our best to minimize
it, but in the end as long as there isn't intentional violence, that is
said to be non violence in the relative world.

The spirit exists in stillness. There can be no activity, hence no division
and hence no violence in this realm.

The outer world of the human is always relative,  though the inner life may
be entirely in the absolute.

Wu Wei of Taoism, summa irruthal (சும்மாயிருத்தல்) of Thirumoolar,  and
described variously in many times and places by many wise ones, all speak
to living life as a dry leaf blown by the winds of Samskara as the
Ashtavakra Gita beautifully puts it.

The violence of the relative world does not attain to one who lives in the
absolute any more than destination attains to the dry leaf blown by the
winds.




On Jun 21, 2017 3:18 PM, "Deepa Mohan"  wrote:

How beautifully written, Cheeni. Thank you. I am still pondering over
division and unison as seemingly-irreconcilable concepts, with regard
to taxonomy...You often crystallize my amorphous, hard-to-pen
thoughts.

Only, I am not sure I agree with "division is violence"let me
think about that.

Deepa.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan 
wrote:
> On Jun 21, 2017 12:13 PM, "Thaths"  wrote:
>
> This book seems to be the one I am looking for:
>
> A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
>  by John Stratton Hawley.
>
>
> I'm glad you found a book to your looking.
>
> Judging by the Amazon "product description", I suspect this is the kind of
> book I was trying to not recommend. Religion pertains to men, and
> spirituality to the spirit. No doubt the Bhakti movement can be dubbed a
> twentieth century religion as this book does, and located within the
> egotistical world of man, his politics, aspirations and ambitions, but the
> spiritual foundations of Bhakti harken back to the beginning of time. This
> is why I led with a recommendation for the book, The Spiritual heritage of
> India. It charts the course of the same essential idea being moulded and
> remoulded to fit the times.
>
> The Rig Veda famously affirms the idea of unity with "ekam sad vipra
> bahudha vadanti agnim yamam matariswanam ahuh" (meaning Truth is one, but
> the learned refer to it in different names like agni, yama, matariswan).
>
> The idea even back then was as old as time itself, not merely because the
> Vedas as a disparate set of ideas that has existed for a few thousand
years
> already.
>
> Shamanic and animistic values had called for unity with nature and all
> things since time began.
>
> This is how it has always been. Yoga literally and ideologically means
> unity. Unity lies at the heart of any spiritual tradition.
>
> Division is violence and the way of the spirit is non violence.
>
> Whenever one sincerely enquires into the way of the spirit, the same
> original ideas come forth, almost as if they are born in a space in the
> knowing before the intellect. These ideas sound radically different when
> translated through the individual intellect, but they are really the same.
>
> The mystics like to say, "Listen to the space between the words, for there
> is the truth."

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Deepa Mohan]

How beautifully written, Cheeni. Thank you. I am still pondering over
division and unison as seemingly-irreconcilable concepts, with regard
to taxonomy...You often crystallize my amorphous, hard-to-pen
thoughts.

Only, I am not sure I agree with "division is violence"let me
think about that.

Deepa.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan  wrote:
> On Jun 21, 2017 12:13 PM, "Thaths"  wrote:
>
> This book seems to be the one I am looking for:
>
> A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
>  by John Stratton Hawley.
>
>
> I'm glad you found a book to your looking.
>
> Judging by the Amazon "product description", I suspect this is the kind of
> book I was trying to not recommend. Religion pertains to men, and
> spirituality to the spirit. No doubt the Bhakti movement can be dubbed a
> twentieth century religion as this book does, and located within the
> egotistical world of man, his politics, aspirations and ambitions, but the
> spiritual foundations of Bhakti harken back to the beginning of time. This
> is why I led with a recommendation for the book, The Spiritual heritage of
> India. It charts the course of the same essential idea being moulded and
> remoulded to fit the times.
>
> The Rig Veda famously affirms the idea of unity with "ekam sad vipra
> bahudha vadanti agnim yamam matariswanam ahuh" (meaning Truth is one, but
> the learned refer to it in different names like agni, yama, matariswan).
>
> The idea even back then was as old as time itself, not merely because the
> Vedas as a disparate set of ideas that has existed for a few thousand years
> already.
>
> Shamanic and animistic values had called for unity with nature and all
> things since time began.
>
> This is how it has always been. Yoga literally and ideologically means
> unity. Unity lies at the heart of any spiritual tradition.
>
> Division is violence and the way of the spirit is non violence.
>
> Whenever one sincerely enquires into the way of the spirit, the same
> original ideas come forth, almost as if they are born in a space in the
> knowing before the intellect. These ideas sound radically different when
> translated through the individual intellect, but they are really the same.
>
> The mystics like to say, "Listen to the space between the words, for there
> is the truth."

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Srini RamaKrishnan]

On Jun 21, 2017 12:13 PM, "Thaths"  wrote:

This book seems to be the one I am looking for:

A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
 by John Stratton Hawley.


I'm glad you found a book to your looking.

Judging by the Amazon "product description", I suspect this is the kind of
book I was trying to not recommend. Religion pertains to men, and
spirituality to the spirit. No doubt the Bhakti movement can be dubbed a
twentieth century religion as this book does, and located within the
egotistical world of man, his politics, aspirations and ambitions, but the
spiritual foundations of Bhakti harken back to the beginning of time. This
is why I led with a recommendation for the book, The Spiritual heritage of
India. It charts the course of the same essential idea being moulded and
remoulded to fit the times.

The Rig Veda famously affirms the idea of unity with "ekam sad vipra
bahudha vadanti agnim yamam matariswanam ahuh" (meaning Truth is one, but
the learned refer to it in different names like agni, yama, matariswan).

The idea even back then was as old as time itself, not merely because the
Vedas as a disparate set of ideas that has existed for a few thousand years
already.

Shamanic and animistic values had called for unity with nature and all
things since time began.

This is how it has always been. Yoga literally and ideologically means
unity. Unity lies at the heart of any spiritual tradition.

Division is violence and the way of the spirit is non violence.

Whenever one sincerely enquires into the way of the spirit, the same
original ideas come forth, almost as if they are born in a space in the
knowing before the intellect. These ideas sound radically different when
translated through the individual intellect, but they are really the same.

The mystics like to say, "Listen to the space between the words, for there
is the truth."

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Thaths]

This book seems to be the one I am looking for:

A Storm of Songs: India and the Idea of the Bhakti Movement
 by John Stratton Hawley.

Thaths

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 3:52 PM Thaths  wrote:

> I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual spread
> of the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand of
> Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and cultural
> conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.
>
> Have you come across such a book?
>
>
> Thaths
>
>
>

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Suresh Ramasubramanian]

Speaking of that – the Chennai Ramakrishna Math has a large number of Swami 
Ramakrishna and Vivekananda’s works but transcribed into word or something of 
the sort, and not in a Unicode font either.  So trying to turn them into HTML 
or make them into something cross platform is resulting in a ton of errors and 
they’re even thinking of having volunteers transcribe the lot again.

Someone who knows what he or she is doing in this area and wants to help out 
please let me know, I’ll put you in touch with the appropriate person at the 
Math.


On 31/05/17, 2:32 PM, "silklist on behalf of Srini RamaKrishnan" 
 wrote:

https://istore.chennaimath.org/product/spiritual-heritage-of-india/

The spiritual heritage of India by Swami Prabhavananda; I highly recommend
this, as well as dipping as needed into the voluminous  works of Swami
Vivekananda.

Re: [silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Srini RamaKrishnan]

Caveat: I'm consciously omitting books by professional historians that
spend more time on the transactional human exchanges than the idea of
Bhakti.



https://istore.chennaimath.org/product/spiritual-heritage-of-india/

The spiritual heritage of India by Swami Prabhavananda; I highly recommend
this, as well as dipping as needed into the voluminous  works of Swami
Vivekananda.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/tantra/sas/index.htm

Shakti and Shâkta
by Arthur Avalon (Sir John Woodroffe)


https://mahaperiyavaa.blog/2012/09/03/deivathin_kural_full_pd/

Deivathin Kural in Tamil (the English translation isn't very good)

Some other collections for you:

https://istore.chennaimath.org/category/english-books/philosophy/bhakti/

https://istore.chennaimath.org/category/english-books/religion/hinduism/

On May 31, 2017 11:22 AM, "Thaths"  wrote:

> I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual spread of
> the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand of
> Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and cultural
> conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.
>
> Have you come across such a book?
>
> Thaths
>

[silk] Books about the Bhakti movement?

[Thaths]

I am looking for a book that explores the origins of, and gradual spread of
the Bhakti movement in India. Not  interested in one specific strand of
Bhakti. More interested in understanding the economic, social and cultural
conditions that led to the rise of these movements across India.

Have you come across such a book?

Thaths