[Simh] CHAC SDS 930

[Mark Emmer]

Does anyone know what became of the last known operating SDS 930 that CHAC 
rescued from the Table Mountain site north of Boulder, CO, in 1996?  I've read 
of the rescue in the CHAC newsletter, where they trucked it to California for 
storage, but their website has gone away. They carted off a vast amount of 
material along with the machine.

Thanks,
Mark Emmer

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote:

On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:



On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole > wrote:


    I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it
    might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11
    or Vaxen.

The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the 
mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.


As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, 
there were readers.


And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be 
hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially 
supported or not I don't know, though.


There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never 
supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.


  Johnny



See my previous note.


Came to yours later...

The punches you mention do exist, as do others (Not particularly common 
or popular):


  * PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH


Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11 Peripherals 
handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only CM11, CR11 and CD11. 
All three are card reader only.


Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a bunch 
of places to search, so I might just have missed it.



Card readers were sold and supported on all systems thru VAX.


Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the VAX.

Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I think Stan R., though it 
wasn't supported.  DECtape controllers are odd devices - the TD10 is 
reasonably smart, but the others put realtime constraints on the drivers 
that could be hard to meet.  Anyhow, by the time the VAX came out, TU58 
and Floppies were cheaper and denser media.


I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-)


There was also an unsupported DECtape driver for TOPS-20.


KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10?

  Johnny

--
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pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-02-13 18:34, Timothe Litt wrote:

The 10/20 MPB and GALAXY batch systems supported the model of preparing
jobs on cards - and feeding them in a continuous stream.  Some university
environments used that into the 80s.  Being DEC, the "JCL" was trivially 
simple;

nothing like the IBM nightmares of complexity.


The batch system under RSX is the same. It can take jobs on punched 
cards, which has its own queue(s).
A few years ago someone was trying to play around with this, and found 
some bugs. Clearly noone had been using this in a long time, or else had 
been using it in a very limited, legacy way.


  Johnny

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote:



On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole > wrote:


I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it
might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11
or Vaxen.

The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill 
or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.


As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, 
there were readers.


And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be 
hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially supported 
or not I don't know, though.


There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never supported 
on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05.


  Johnny

--
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Re: [Simh] CP-V or CP-6?

[Daniel O'Reilly]

I ran CPV and CPVI both on a Xerox Sigma 7 in college.  For their time, 
pretty good OSs.


On 2/13/2020 10:01 AM, Zane Healy wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, the Multics software that available the only thing 
available for the DPS-8 family.  I for one would love to be able to run GCOS-8 
again, but I don’t see that ever happening.

Have you seen the Wikipedia page on CP-6?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_CP-6

Zane





On Feb 12, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Tom Perrine  wrote:

Recent mention of the SDS 940 and XDS reminded me of a system that I only used 
for a year or so, but which was pretty fascinating to me:  CP-V and the 
Honeywell follow-on CP-6.

Does anyone else remember these, or have ideas on where I might look for OS 
media for them?

I *think* that the CP-V was running on the SDS HW and that CP-6 ran on either 
Level 6 or more likely the DPS 8 series.  I remember lots of PL 6 programming 
(man, I really miss PL 6).

Regards,
Tom

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[Simh] RK formatting - closed

[Bob Supnik]

The simulator is doing the right thing. Here's the core of the 
formatting routine:


6$: MOV #-1,RKWC(R2)    ;SET WORD COUNT TO 1
    MOV #RKDATA,RKBA(R2)    ;SET BUFFER ADDRESS
    MOV #WRTFMT+GO,RKCS(R2) ;ISSUE WRITE FORMAT
7$: BIT #CTLRDY,RKCS(R2)    ;DONE?
    BEQ 7$  ;NO-WAIT
    BIT #ERR,RKCS(R2)   ;REACHED ERROR CONDITION YET?
    BEQ 6$  ;NO. REPEAT 'TILL ERROR CONDITION
    ADD #14533,R1   ;COMPUTE LAST VALID ADDRESS ON DISK
    CMP R1,RKDA(R2) ;ARE WE THERE?
    BHI 9$  ;NO. ERROR
    MOV #CTLRST+GO,RKCS(R2) ;CLEAR CONTROLLER
8$: BIT #CTLRDY,RKCS(R2)    ;DONE?
    BEQ 8$  ;NO-WAIT
    BIT #ERR,RKCS(R2)   ;ERROR?
    BNE 9$  ;YES, BUT ERROR
    CLC ;NO ERRORS.
    BR  11$ ;GO TO RETURN

9$: $ERROR  #$SERR2,F   ;'?DEVICE ERROR'    ;MG1
10$:    SEC ;INDICATE ERROR
11$:    RTS PC  ;RETURN

And here's the simulator coming out of the loop:

.format rk0:
RK0:/FORMAT-Are you sure? Y

Breakpoint, PC: 012736 (ADD #14533,R1)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012742 (CMP R1,12(R2))
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012746 (BHI 13002)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012750 (MOV #1,4(R2))
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012756 (BIT #200,4(R2))
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012764 (BEQ 12756)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012766 (BIT #10,4(R2))
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012774 (BNE 13002)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 012776 (CLC)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 013000 (BR 13020)
sim> s

Step expired, PC: 013020 (RTS PC)
sim> c
?FORMAT-I-Formatting complete

As you can see, the code resets the controller, sees no errors, and 
continues onward.


I regard the issue as resolved. The simulator is handling formatting 
correctly, and RT11 is generating an appropriate informational message 
at the end.


/Bob

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Re: [Simh] Various

[John Dundas]

Did DEC actually sell that many? In my years of working around DEC gear
starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one
on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.



I used cards primarily with IBM, Univac, and CDC gear, but did use a 
mark-sense reader with a PDP-8.  Edusystem-30.  Same size as punch cards 
but 40 mark-sense columns.


John


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[Simh] RT11 sources needed

[Bob Supnik]

Okay. If I'm going to trace this RK11 FORMAT bug and RL02 init bug, I 
need sources (with comments) for some version of RT11 that supports 
those devices, like V5.3 or later. Both are probably in DUP, but I'd 
need to trace driver code too.


Over the years, I've managed to stockpile sources for various PDP11 
operating systems, but never RT11.


/Bob
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Re: [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[Timothe Litt]

In the TOPS-10 world, ANF-10 RJE stations could have card readers and
printers.  The TOPS-10/20 DN200 also.

But most "RJE" station software on the DEC side made the foreign
mainframe look like a batch queue, and you would submit a file to that
queue.  The software (typically DEC 2780/3780 emulation for
{TOPS-10,TOPS-20, VMS, ...}) would send the file to the mainframe from
an imaginary card reader; results similarly to an imaginary printer
(ending up in a .log or other file).  I suppose "virtual" would be the
modern word for "imaginary", but it comes to the same thing :-)

On the KL based systems, the software was a combination of PDP-11 front
end code (a dedicated DN20) and code running on the KL.  The KS used a
KDP, though there was also a "DN22" remote station.

I don't know exactly what UNIX did - wasn't in that world much then. 
But I wouldn't be surprised if the strategy was similar - user prepares
a file, software does the code conversions to/from EBCDIC, and the usual
lies told (er, device emulation performed) in both directions...  That
would certainly have led to the emulation work you recall - especially
given the fluid definitions of character sets at the time.  I don't
recall the same efforts to offload development to UNIX as to the DEC
proprietary systems - IIRC, compilers for legacy languages (COBOL, RPG,
PL/I) came to UNIX rather later, and with less rich/performant
implementations. 

In my experience, physical card equipment, as previously noted, was
either a legacy/migration requirement, or simply a bureaucratic legacy
"requirement".  The DEC value proposition was that cards were expensive,
awkward, slow, and painful to create, modify/debug with.  Interactive TS
solved those problems; the emulations were a medium of exchange between
the legacy/enterprise systems and the more productive DEC systems. 

Readers: quite common.  Punches, much less so.

On 13-Feb-20 13:37, Clem Cole wrote:
> One last reply here, but CCing COFF where this thread really belongs...
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM Timothe Litt  > wrote:
>
> OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card
> equipment was
>
> almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix...
>
> You're probably right about that Tim, but DEC world was mostly
> TOPS/TENEX/ITS and UNIX.  But you would think that since a huge usage
> of UNIX systems were as RJE for IBM gear at AT  In fact, that was
> one of the 'justifications' if PWB.  I'm thinking of the machine rooms
> I saw in MH, WH and IH, much less DEC, Tektronix or my
> universitytime.  It's funny, I do remember a lot of work to emulate
> card images and arguments between the proper character set
> conversions, but  I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or
> punches on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC systems. 
>
> As other people have pointed out, I'm sure they must have been around,
> but my world did not have them.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Eager]

...of so many 'chips'!

I agree though. Thanks, Al.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:44:38 -0500
Timothe Litt  wrote:

> Thanks.  Me too. 
> 
> Might be a regional dialect - like "Hi" vs. "Hey" or "labor" vs.
> "labour"  Not worth arguing, especially since Al has been the savior
> (saviour) of so many bits :-)
> 
> On 13-Feb-20 14:38, Bob Eager wrote:
> > It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.
> >
> > On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
> > Al Kossow  wrote:
> >
> >>>  "chad bin full"  
> >>
> >> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
> >> saying.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [Simh] [COFF] Of DEC and cards

[Timothe Litt]

On 13-Feb-20 14:57, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > From: Clem Cole
>
> > I just don't remember seeing actual card readers or punches on the
> > PDP-11s
>
> I'm not sure DEC _had_ a card punch for the PDP11's. Readers, yes, the CR11:
>
>   https://gunkies.org/wiki/CR11_Card_Readers
>
> but I don't think they had a punch (although there was one for the PDP-10
> family, the CP10).
>
> I think the CR11 must have been _relatively_ common, based on how many
> readers and CR11 controller cards survive. Maybe not in computer science
> installations, though... :-)
>
>   Noel
Not common, but yes:

CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH

Before anyone asks, there were also:

CP08-(N,P) (CSS) Data Products Speedpuch 120 100 CPM Punch and controller

CP10-(A,B) MD6011 300 CPM CARD PUNCH & Controller (60,50 Hz)

CP15-(A,B) Ditto for the -15

and

CP20-E (The CP10 for orange boxes)

There were a few other part numbers, especially for the 10/20, which
included various mechanical options - e.g. racks for the controllers vs.
just the controller, colors, etc.  What's listed are the main models for
each family.

The CP01-(A,B) "Documation LC15 Model 2 Card Puhcn, 80 Col, 100CPM,
RS322 interfaces, ASCII or Imaged mode 100-9600 BAUD

Not sure what platforms used the CP01...


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Timothe Litt]

Thanks.  Me too. 

Might be a regional dialect - like "Hi" vs. "Hey" or "labor" vs.
"labour"  Not worth arguing, especially since Al has been the savior
(saviour) of so many bits :-)

On 13-Feb-20 14:38, Bob Eager wrote:
> It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.
>
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
> Al Kossow  wrote:
>
>>>  "chad bin full"  
>>
>> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
>> saying.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Eager]

It was 'chad' back in 1971 when I was using punched cards.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800
Al Kossow  wrote:

> >  "chad bin full"  
> 
> 
> "chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on
> saying.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] CP-V or CP-6?

[Ray Jewhurst]

On a side note, could any steer me towards information on installing an OS
on  the SDS?  Links to software and a sample config file would be helpful
and appreciated.

Thanks

Ray

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 1:18 PM Zane Healy  wrote:

> To the best of my knowledge, the Multics software that available the only
> thing available for the DPS-8 family.  I for one would love to be able to
> run GCOS-8 again, but I don’t see that ever happening.
>
> Have you seen the Wikipedia page on CP-6?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_CP-6
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Tom Perrine  wrote:
> >
> > Recent mention of the SDS 940 and XDS reminded me of a system that I
> only used for a year or so, but which was pretty fascinating to me:  CP-V
> and the Honeywell follow-on CP-6.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember these, or have ideas on where I might look for
> OS media for them?
> >
> > I *think* that the CP-V was running on the SDS HW and that CP-6 ran on
> either Level 6 or more likely the DPS 8 series.  I remember lots of PL 6
> programming (man, I really miss PL 6).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tom
> >
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Re: [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[Clem Cole]

One last reply here, but CCing COFF where this thread really belongs...

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM Timothe Litt  wrote:

> OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card equipment was
>
> almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix...
>
You're probably right about that Tim, but DEC world was mostly
TOPS/TENEX/ITS and UNIX.  But you would think that since a huge usage of
UNIX systems were as RJE for IBM gear at AT  In fact, that was one of
the 'justifications' if PWB.  I'm thinking of the machine rooms I saw in
MH, WH and IH, much less DEC, Tektronix or my university time.  It's funny,
I do remember a lot of work to emulate card images and arguments between
the proper character set conversions, but  I just don't remember seeing actual
card readers or punches on the PDP-11s, only on the IBM, Univac and CDC
systems.

As other people have pointed out, I'm sure they must have been around, but
my world did not have them.
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Re: [Simh] Card Readers on PDP-11's

[Timothe Litt]

Yes, and until ~ the 1442, the IBM readers used a row of metal brushes
to read the cards (they'd go through the holes and contact a metal plate
on the bottom).  All the early IBM gear was mechanically interesting - I
suppose from their origins.  Springs, brushes, cams, levers, solenoids,
microswitches, belts and motors!  A mechanical engineering degree was
probably more helpful than an EE (or later CS)...

The 1442 (ish) introduced optical (incandescent lamp + photocell)
readers; Documation also was optical.  IIRC, it also had a taller path,
so was more tolerant of warpage/curled edges.  Toward the end, the light
source became LEDs. 

Anything that avoided contact with the cards helped reliability.  The
challenge for the designers was to have tolerances large enough to avoid
jams, but small enough to prevent picking more than one card, or
allowing skew in transit.

The off-line card sorters and reproducing punches (with the wired
plugboards, often used with mark-sense) were also mechanical marvels -
or monsters - depending on which side of the Field Engineers' toolbox
you stood.

On 13-Feb-20 13:00, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>> On Feb 13, 2020, at 12:17 PM, Robert Thomas  wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> The Documation card reader was fairly reliable and didn't chew up as many 
>> cards as the IBM reader.
> I can believe that.  The IBM card readers and punches I've seen (on a 360/44) 
> had a pick mechanism that moves a metal block with a small step in it, sized 
> to match the nominal thickness of the card.  This was supposed to catch the 
> far edge of the card and *push* it into the throat of the feed mechanism.  If 
> there was anything slightly wrong, it would accordeon-fold the card instead.
>
> The Documation readers had vacuum operated pick mechanisms that acted on the 
> leading edge of the card.
>
>   paul
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 1:09 PM, Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:
> 
> Paul Koning wrote:
>> At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used
>> for teaching assembly language programming.
> 
> I hope it wasn't the same they attached to Arpanet.

No, the ARPAnet one was a Unix system in the advanced computer center, the 
building that was originally built to house Illiac-IV.  The one I'm talking 
about was standalone, a DOS system in the computer science building.

It was pretty weird in that it ran a PDP-11 simulator (on the PDP-11) so 
students could write something approximating bare-metal software but get some 
debugging help if things go wrong.

They moved that course to CDC, and I helped write the analogous thing for our 
Cyber (a Cyber emulator on Cyber).

paul


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Re: [Simh] Various

[Lars Brinkhoff]

Paul Koning wrote:
> At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used
> for teaching assembly language programming.

I hope it wasn't the same they attached to Arpanet.

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Paul Koning]

> On Feb 13, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Clem Cole  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:
> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
> 
> Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs on 
> Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here as 
> I'm kinda curious and will ask it.
> 
> Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear 
> starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a 
> PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on 
> a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.

At U of Illinois, the computer science department had a PDP-11 used for 
teaching assembly language programming.  It had a CR11 which was the input 
device for student programs.

Note that these are just readers.  DEC did not sell a card punch for the PDP-11.

> I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s and 
> CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and 29 
> keypunch (and a couple of great stories too). 

CDC had its own card readers and punches, and those were also sold to some 
other manufacturers.  For example, the EL-X8 reader and punch are the CDC 415 
and 405.  On those machines paper tape was more common, but some installations 
did have punched card I/O.

One interesting aspect of the 405 is that it punches a row at a time.  Usually 
the program interface is with data in columns, so the controller had to do an 
80x12 matrix transpose.  Occasionally the job would be left to software (the X8 
did this).

paul

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Re: [Simh] Of DEC and cards

[Timothe Litt]

I don't have numbers, but I do have experience. 

I ran into quite a few card readers on DEC gear - fewer (but some) punches.

8s, 11s, 10s, 20s, and VAX - they were gone by alpha.

The card readers were most often specified for migrations - people who had a
business process, or even just software to move from a card environment.
Perhaps a 360/70, or 1130.  Remember that even into the early 80s, phone
bills came with an "IBM" card that went back with your check; Mass driver's
licenses were created with punch cards...

I sometimes thought that a card reader should have been bundled with the
COBOL and RPG compilers...There were some RFQs where it was clear that
you had to have a card reader just to check a box - you'd go to the site
years
later and see layers of undisturbed dust on the dust cover :-)

Then there were the people who used DEC gear to write (and especially debug)
jobs that would run on the more expensive mainframes.

The compilers (FORTRAN, COBOL, RPG) all had strict card image modes as well
as looser "interactive" modes.  Not just standard conformance, but to deal
the the card sequence fields at the right end.

The CR10A would read 1000 cards/min (833 at 50 Hz) - and was noisy enough
to be heard over the fans/AC of a 10 in a machine room.  It was rather
finicky;
the Documations were more reliable.  Most models on the 11s were slower,
but IIRC there was a 1,200 CPM model. 

The CP10 did a whopping 200 CPM - or 365 if only the first 16? columns were
punched.  Punching was always slower - and mechanically more challenging.

The 10/20 MPB and GALAXY batch systems supported the model of preparing
jobs on cards - and feeding them in a continuous stream.  Some university
environments used that into the 80s.  Being DEC, the "JCL" was trivially
simple;
nothing like the IBM nightmares of complexity. 

OTOH, and probably more consistent with your experience, card equipment was
almost unheard of when the DEC HW ran Unix...

On 13-Feb-20 11:38, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  > wrote:
>
> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
>
> Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of
> belongs on Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion
> started here as I'm kinda curious and will ask it.
>
> Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC
> gear starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only
> once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I
> ever saw one on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.
>
> I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the
> Univac 1100s and CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442,
> much less a 26 and 29 keypunch (and a couple of great stories too). 
>
> That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or
> either the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old
> cassette tape units DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
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[Simh] Card Readers on PDP-11's

[Robert Thomas]

Coming from an IBM 1130 to a PDP-11/20 we had 12kb of core memory, dual RK03's, 
replaced with RK05's, paper tape reader, paper tape punch, card reader, 
teletype, printer and plotter.  At the time we were running DOS.  We had 
several IBM 029 card punches.  There were no online terminals.

We used to have fewer problems with PDP-11/20 than the IBM 1130.  There was a 
hardware problem with the IBM printer that would cause the IBM 1130 to destroy 
the contents of the disk.  One of my tasks was to every Friday evening rebuilt 
all of the disks that were "damaged" by the printer.

The Documation card reader was fairly reliable and didn't chew up as many cards 
as the IBM reader.

Sincerely,
Robert F. Thomas



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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: Various

[Brian]

On 2/13/20 11:48 AM, Hittner, David T [US] (MS) wrote:
> My college, DePauw University (Greencastle, IN, USA), had a DEC card
> reader attached to their PDP-11/45 running RSTS/E, and later connected
> it to their new VAX 11/782(!) running VMS.
> 
> They made all intro students in 1979 learn to use the card punch
> machines and submit programming jobs on cards, until they finally got
> rid of the card punch/readers in favor of interactive terminals in
> 1980-81.
> 

University College of Wales (Aberystwyth) in 1978. Those doing the
'Algol for Scientists' course had to BUY coding pads. You wrote your
programs, longhand, on these, and then tore off the pages and
submitted them to the typists in the coding room. A few hours later
(on a good day!) a deck of cards would appear in your pigeon hole. You
took this to the so-called 'cafeteria', a small room with a card
reader and a line printer, and could queue up to submit your job (with
a 45 second runtime limit) to the twin ICL 4130s (the card reader did
seem quite reliable though!) Find the errors, correct the card(s), go
round the loop again. When everything compiled correctly, submit the
card deck into the queue for batch processing (i.e. a longer run
time). If you were really unlucky, your compile time exceeded the 45
seconds cafeteria time.

Eventually we were let loose on the terminals, which at least saved on
the coding sheets. Chemistry had a single teletype for the entire
department, on a good day it would run at 1200 baud, on a bad day you
had to call the computer department on the main campus and ask for a
300 baud connection instead.

Youth of today, etc, etc...

Brian.

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Re: [Simh] CP-V or CP-6?

[Zane Healy]

To the best of my knowledge, the Multics software that available the only thing 
available for the DPS-8 family.  I for one would love to be able to run GCOS-8 
again, but I don’t see that ever happening. 

Have you seen the Wikipedia page on CP-6?  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_CP-6

Zane




> On Feb 12, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Tom Perrine  wrote:
> 
> Recent mention of the SDS 940 and XDS reminded me of a system that I only 
> used for a year or so, but which was pretty fascinating to me:  CP-V and the 
> Honeywell follow-on CP-6.
> 
> Does anyone else remember these, or have ideas on where I might look for OS 
> media for them?
> 
> I *think* that the CP-V was running on the SDS HW and that CP-6 ran on either 
> Level 6 or more likely the DPS 8 series.  I remember lots of PL 6 programming 
> (man, I really miss PL 6).
> 
> Regards,
> Tom
> 
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Jonathan Welch]

Our VAX 11/780 had a card reader in the very early 1980s for reading in the
names and details of incoming freshmen so their accounts could be set up.

It usually required a few runs to obtain an uncorrupted read of the card
deck.

The IBM system that generated the cards was on the other side of a wall but
no attempt to have the two systems communicate with each other was ever
made.

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, 11:40 AM Clem Cole  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:
>
>> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
>>
> Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs
> on Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here
> as I'm kinda curious and will ask it.
>
> Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear
> starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
> PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one
> on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.
>
> I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s
> and CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and
> 29 keypunch (and a couple of great stories too).
>
> That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or
> either the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old
> cassette tape units DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
> ___
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Re: [Simh] EXT :Re: Various

[Hittner, David T [US] (MS)]

My college, DePauw University (Greencastle, IN, USA), had a DEC card reader 
attached to their PDP-11/45 running RSTS/E, and later connected it to their new 
VAX 11/782(!) running VMS.
They made all intro students in 1979 learn to use the card punch machines and 
submit programming jobs on cards, until they finally got rid of the card 
punch/readers in favor of interactive terminals in 1980-81.

David

From: Simh  On Behalf Of Clem Cole
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 11:39 AM
To: Timothe Litt 
Cc: SIMH 
Subject: EXT :Re: [Simh] Various



On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt 
mailto:l...@ieee.org>> wrote:

Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs on 
Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here as I'm 
kinda curious and will ask it.

Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear 
starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a 
PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a 
PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.

I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s and 
CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and 29 
keypunch (and a couple of great stories too).

That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or either 
the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old cassette tape units 
DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Clem Cole]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole  wrote:

> I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it might
> have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.
>
The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill or
the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them.
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Clem Cole]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 10:50 AM Timothe Litt  wrote:

> Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY
>
Mark - sorry to go a little direct (simh) topic here [this sort of belongs
on Warren's COFF mailing list), but since the Card discussion started here
as I'm kinda curious and will ask it.

Did DEC actually sell that many?   In my years of working around DEC gear
starting in the late 1960s, I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a
PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10.   I don't think I ever saw one
on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen.

I certainly saw and used them on IBM 1401/360 systems, the Univac 1100s and
CDC's.  I have not so fond memories of the IBM 1442, much less a 26 and 29
keypunch (and a couple of great stories too).

That said, when I think of DEC gear, my memories are of paper tape or
either the original DEC-Tape units or a couple of cases the old
cassette tape units DEC had on some of the laboratory PDP 11/05s.
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Re: [Simh] Subject: Re: something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?

[Henk Gooijen]

Johnny wrote:

>> My current implementation turns on the FAULT lamp for several reasons.
>>
>> - for the RK11 errors (so I need to check and somewhat improve that),
>>although the errors are not likely to occur in SIMH, unless you are
>>programming access to the registers directly and make a mistake ...
>
>But I think it be a mistake to source the error lamp from that.

That is true, but with the "blinkenlight fun" in mind, I guess it is nice
to *see* that you made a mistake in the code   Anyway, you only have to
modify pdp11_rk.c to get what you want.

>> - if the drive (or software!) sets the drive to "read-only" (thus the
>>   WT-PROT lamp goes on), and you do some write action, for example, try
>>   to delete a file, the FAULT lamp goes on.
>
>That sounds just plain wrong. That is not a fault at all. That just fails.
>You get an error in the software, but the drive does not indicate anything.

Again, you are correct. The software reports the error.
I will remove the FAULT lamp turning on for this case.

>>   Toggling the WT-PROT switch or (RT11 command) .SET RK0 LOCKED will
>>   turn on the WT-PROT lamp. Toggling again or .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE will
>>   turn off the WT-PROT lamp.
>
> From software you cannot remove the write protect. That can only be
>done through the physical switch.
>The software can only turn on write protect. It's not a toggle.

Yeah, I can understand that way of working. I guess, I am mixing up
SIMH behavior and OS (say, RT11) behavior. In SIMH you *can* turn off
WT-PROT with .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE.

>> - according to RK11/RK05 documentation, toggling the WT-PROT or the
>>   LOAD/RUN switch (to RUN) will turn off the FAULT lamp.
>
>I can't believe that playing with the write protect switch would have
>any affect on the fault lamp. I think only the load/run switch would do
>that.

It says so. See RK05 disk drive user's manual, EK-RK05-OP-001, page 1-6:
"(FAULT) Goes off when the WT PROT switch is pressed, or when the drive
is recycled through a RUN/LOAD sequence.
But maybe that is a copy/paste error on behalf of the writer 

Greetz,
Henk

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Re: [Simh] Various

[Al Kossow]

>  "chad bin full"


"chips" not "chad" no matter what the Y2000 revisionists insist on saying.



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Re: [Simh] Various

[Toby Thain]

On 2020-02-13 9:49 AM, Mark Emmer wrote:
> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O instructions
> RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

I was aware of the "pie" verb describing typesetters dropping made up
type... TIL it survived into the punch card era.

--Toby


> 
> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the read
> gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring the size
> of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
> 
> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken in
> getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed the
> task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference Manual.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That would
> be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is on my To
> Do list.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> Get BlueMail for Android 
> On Feb 13, 2020, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik  > wrote:
> 
> 1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 
> in 3.10.
> 
> My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.
> 
> 2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
> 
> a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
> b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
> 
> Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader
> these days.
> 
> My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
> It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
> gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
> passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out,
> past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
> fifteen feet out on the floor...
> 
> The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
> only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
> was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
> using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
> service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
> that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
> 
> In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
> on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
> offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.
> 
> /Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simh mailing list
> Simh@trailing-edge.com
> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
> 
> 
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Timothe Litt]

Among others, DEC OEM'd Documation card readers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se0F1bLfFKY

And old friend - the 1442 reader/punch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w62NC1R6WLs

And with the covers open

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfRxpmiScPA

I didn't find audio of the punch - which was quite noisy (and slow).

Note the dual output trays - program selectable.  Often one used for
accepted data, the other for rejects.

Operators interested in throughput (or lunch) would, contrary to
instructions, try to load and unload while the reader/punch was
running.  This could produce entertaining results.  (Jams - and avian
cards...)

So could the first time an operator encountered the "chad bin full"
error condition...


On 13-Feb-20 10:27, Richard Cornwell wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
>> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O
>> instructions RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).
>   I considered adding these to my card simulation. I could also add
>   the feature that it will once in a while overwrite the currently
>   reading card with random junk.
>
>   sim_card, basically give you translation from the various formats
>   into a punched image of the card. Or it takes a punched image of a
>   card and translates it to ASCII or other formats. It can also
>   auto detect most common card deck format. Currently supported formats
>   are ASCII, CBN, Binary, card, EBCDIC. Also if it can't translate a
>   card to ASCII it will generate an ~raw card with octal values.
>  
>> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the
>> read gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring
>> the size of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
>>
>> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken
>> in getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed
>> the task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference
>> Manual.
>Let me know if you have any questions or need things added. sim_card
>is currently used by all of my simulators. You might need to tweak
>the translation tables, if so let me know.
>
>> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That
>> would be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is
>> on my To Do list.
>I am sure we could get some clips.
>
> Rich
>  
>>
>> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik 
>> wrote:
>>> 1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
>>> RL02 
>>> in 3.10.
>>>
>>> My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to
>>> work.
>>>
>>> 2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
>>>
>>> a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
>>> b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
>>>
>>> Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
>>> reader
>>> these days.
>>>
>>> My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
>>> 1965.
>>> It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader
>>> would gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two
>>> or three passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to
>>> spit cards out,
>>> past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten
>>> or fifteen feet out on the floor...
>>>
>>> The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
>>> only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of
>>> programs was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards
>>> per minute using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the
>>> end. DEC field service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the
>>> damned thing so that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
>>>
>>> In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The
>>> reader/punch on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and
>>> the 407 (used for offline printing of punched card output) could
>>> read almost anything.
>>>
>>> /Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Richard Cornwell]

Hi Mark,

> Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O
> instructions RCC (Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

  I considered adding these to my card simulation. I could also add
  the feature that it will once in a while overwrite the currently
  reading card with random junk.

  sim_card, basically give you translation from the various formats
  into a punched image of the card. Or it takes a punched image of a
  card and translates it to ASCII or other formats. It can also
  auto detect most common card deck format. Currently supported formats
  are ASCII, CBN, Binary, card, EBCDIC. Also if it can't translate a
  card to ASCII it will generate an ~raw card with octal values.
 
> I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the
> read gate that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring
> the size of a progrram in boxes, not bytes.
> 
> I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken
> in getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed
> the task by then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference
> Manual.

   Let me know if you have any questions or need things added. sim_card
   is currently used by all of my simulators. You might need to tweak
   the translation tables, if so let me know.

> I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That
> would be a nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is
> on my To Do list.

   I am sure we could get some clips.

Rich
 
> 
> 
> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​
> 
> On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik 
> wrote:
> >1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
> >RL02 
> >in 3.10.
> >
> >My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to
> >work.
> >
> >2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
> >
> >a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
> >b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
> >
> >Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
> >reader
> >these days.
> >
> >My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
> >1965.
> >It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader
> >would gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two
> >or three passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to
> >spit cards out,
> >past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten
> >or fifteen feet out on the floor...
> >
> >The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
> >only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of
> >programs was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards
> >per minute using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the
> >end. DEC field service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the
> >damned thing so that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
> >
> >In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The
> >reader/punch on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and
> >the 407 (used for offline printing of punched card output) could
> >read almost anything.
> >
> >/Bob
> >
> >
> >___
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> >http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh  
> 



-- 
==
Richard Cornwell
r...@sky-visions.com
http://sky-visions.com
LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-cornwell-991076107
==
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Mark Emmer]

Any good simulation would have to include the semi-real I/O instructions RCC 
(Read and Chew Card) and DPD (Drop and Pie Deck).

I'm with you about never again struggling to remove a card from the read gate 
that had been converted to a mini-accordion or measuring the size of a progrram 
in boxes, not bytes.

I'm traveling for several weeks, but when back home I will assist Ken in 
getting an SDS driver for the reader/punch if he hasn't completed the task by 
then.  All needed documentation is in the 940 Reference Manual.

I wonder if anyone has sound recordings of a reader/punch?  That would be a 
nice addition to a blinkenlights implementation, which is on my To Do list.

Mark



⁣Get BlueMail for Android ​

On Feb 13, 2020, 6:51 AM, at 6:51 AM, Bob Supnik  wrote:
>1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an
>RL02
>in 3.10.
>
>My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.
>
>2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because
>
>a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
>b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand
>
>Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card
>reader
>these days.
>
>My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in
>1965.
>It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
>gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
>passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards
>out,
>past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
>fifteen feet out on the floor...
>
>The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
>only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
>was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
>using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
>service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
>that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.
>
>In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
>on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
>offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.
>
>/Bob
>
>
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Re: [Simh] Various

[Bob Supnik]

1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 
in 3.10.


My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work.

2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because

a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when)
b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand

Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader
these days.

My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965.
It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would
gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three
passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out,
past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or
fifteen feet out on the floor...

The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The
only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs
was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute
using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field
service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so
that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck.

In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch
on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for
offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything.

/Bob


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Re: [Simh] Subject: Re: something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?

[Johnny Billquist]

Hi.

On 2020-02-12 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote:

Thanks for responses, I learned a few things!


[...]

Always fun to learn more things... :-)


My current implementation turns on the FAULT lamp for several reasons.

- for the RK11 errors (so I need to check and somewhat improve that),
   although the errors are not likely to occur in SIMH, unless you are
   programming access to the registers directly and make a mistake ...


But I think it be a mistake to source the error lamp from that.


- if the drive (or software!) sets the drive to "read-only" (thus the
   WT-PROT lamp goes on), and you do some write action, for example, try
   to delete a file, the FAULT lamp goes on.


That sounds just plain wrong. That is not a fault at all. That just 
fails. You get an error in the software, but the drive does not indicate 
anything.



   Toggling the WT-PROT switch or (RT11 command) .SET RK0 LOCKED will
   turn on the WT-PROT lamp. Toggling again or .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE will
   turn off the WT-PROT lamp.


From software you cannot remove the write protect. That can only be 
done through the physical switch.

The software can only turn on write protect. It's not a toggle.


- according to RK11/RK05 documentation, toggling the WT-PROT or the
   LOAD/RUN switch (to RUN) will turn off the FAULT lamp.


I can't believe that playing with the write protect switch would have 
any affect on the fault lamp. I think only the load/run switch would do 
that.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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