110-feet?...woohoo...I don't think I've ever seen anything like this.
I'm glad I asked before I stuck my foot in my mouth.
I'll have to agree with Todd and change my answer to No, put the 1st
level of rack sprinklers at 10-foot as shown in the figure.
The storage arrangement is an extreme...and
Ron,
Let's play devils advocate and go back to the question that I asked in
my first response.
If your total storage arrangement is 35-feet high, do you design for
the total height of 35-feet or only
30-feet high since the lower 5-feet is dead space?
I don't understand your note regarding your
Is this an ASRS system, narrow aisles, automated picker?
What are the cartons? Cardboard, 5-sided plastic, etc?
Typically in these hi-rise rack systems the bottom tier is inaccessible to the
picker so there is no regular storage of commodities, BUT that doesn't mean
there is not other
I don't know if I've seen all of this thread, I just got back today. The
first thing that strikes me is that storage is 110 feet, and I'm assuming
there are ceiling sprinklers that are even higher. So, not to throw another
kink in your operation, but how will stratification of heat work in this
We blow out at full line open, usually that means 50 to 75 Psi back
pressure. When we fill or reset the valve, we use radio's with the valve
just cracked at the compressor. Fill usually takes about 2 minutes. We leave
the air couplings on the drum drips, but not the insp. Test. Then we're
pretty
Sorry, hit the ENTER --- button too soon
Is this an ASRS system, narrow aisles, automated picker?
What are the cartons? Cardboard, 5-sided plastic, combustible,
non-combustible, encapsulated, etc?
Typically in these hi-rise rack systems the bottom tier is inaccessible to the
Ceiling sprinkler may or may not operate depending on where the fire starts.
That's why you have the in-racks and face sprinklers in the racks. The
sprinklers closest to ignition should respond and control the fire so those
above don't have to.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
Why would anyone want to install a sidewall head exposed in the middle of a
room?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
It's all they had left on the truck?
More likely at NIH, the last 20' of the room is wall to wall duct above the
ceiling.
glc
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Low clearance areas (ie. garage entrance ramp). A sidewall (or extended
coverage sidewall at that) would keep your pipe out of the no hang zone
where uprights (or extended coverage uprights) won't permit.
Inaccessible areas. Rather than paying for scaffolding to get you over
furniture/storage,
Monday has struck again. They way I was reading it was there would ONLY be
one level of in-racks. Oops.
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Guess all that would be just peachy if the mfgr listing stated that it's head
was listed for such applications. I've often wished for an OH or even EH
listed sidewall for similar reasons. But apparently the mfgrs. don't intend
for them to be used for more than LH occupancies in most cases.
I am skeptical about the idea of a bottom level space being unused
in a storage warehouse. At some point, someone will figure out how to
use it and then it will be a mess. Stick with the 10 ft above the
floor, I would.
At 09:51 AM 1/5/2009, you wrote:
Ron,
My answer is maybe yes...but I'd
Anyone want to take a shot at this?
Figure 17.3.4.1.3(d) indicates the first level of sprinklers to be 10
ft. approximately from the floor and is shown above the second cube in
the elevation view.
If there is a 5 ft. dead space (empty with no storage or other
equipment) from the floor to the
Rick,
Once the storage is over 25 ft. the height really doesn't matter. The
roof density is determined by the distance from top level or in-racks to
the top of storage and the in-rack requirement is from Figures
17.3.1.2(a) to 17.3.1.2(f) based on a level of sprinklers about every 10
ft. or two
I agree, the codes do not permit installation of sidewalls without a
backwall/soffit/beam in any other situation. However, this is something I
have often wondered myself. Granted, all closed sprinklers actuated by
thermal elements require to be in proximity to a ceiling. The thermal
elements in
I'm not a PE nor do I play one on TV. But I've seen James' fire videos, so
I'm ahead of most plumbing designers:)
Caveats aside, I think activation depends on heat banking down from the
ceiling, and in order to get a head to throw 24' it has to go off- and
that's a long way for heat to go without
Many OH as well as LH HSW heads and even OH Dry HSW heads are available.
Reliable has MBEC-14 for those metal frame and purlin buildings, in addition
to their other listings for HSW. The availability of the heads is not in
question here, it's the installation, and without the wall/soffit behind
Activation is most likely not the issue but pattern of discharge. At the wall
there is no real need for discharge in more than one direction as opposed to a
pendent or upright in the middle of a room where you're seeking a 360 degree
field of discharge.
Same deal for the sidewall under the
We all know that nothing ever falls out and that stuff never collects
in empty spaces under things, does it?
At 11:42 AM 1/5/2009, you wrote:
If you room for another foot, I'll toss out a thought
We have a high level of assurance that stuff will not be located on
the floor (that pesky
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I think the earlier response is the issue. There is no room to get over to the
area to be protected, hence
spray the area with the sidewall. I've wanted to do it on several occasions,
but just didn't seem right.
There are pendant heads protecting the area behind the sidewall. so the
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Say you have a room that is 24 feet wide. The first 12 feet is covered with
a pendent 6 feet feom the left wall. What is the problem with having a
sidewall at the centre of the room facing towards the right wall to cover
that part of the room. I know NFPA codes doesn't allow it. But I'd like to
Wall behind the SW doesn't play a part in the spray pattern.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
The only exception to not having a wall, soffit, or beam behind them
is when installed UNDER roll-up doors ( as allowed by 8.4.2 (3)
Roland
On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Dale Wingard wrote:
Duane,
NFPA 13(2007) 8.7.4.1.2 addresses the location of vertical and
horizontal sidewalls in
No one gets shot on this forum (I hope), all opinions are appreciated.
To play devils advocate though what would you do if the load height were
10 ft. instead of 5? The top of the first tier would be 15 ft. off the
floor.
I don't agree with the source of ignition would probably be at the
floor
If you room for another foot, I'll toss out a thought
We have a high level of assurance that stuff will not be located on
the floor (that pesky automated equipment has little tolerance for
variances I assume).
Would you not consider that the main issue is having in-racks every
other
1. 110 ft. storage.
2. Every other level as shown in 17.3.4.1.3(d).
3. Class IV and Group A in cartons.
In this case it makes one level of sprinklers difference and in this
building it's a lot of sprinklers.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
21605 N. Central Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85024
P:
Dave P. said Once there's a fire in a building there is another completely
real life hazard in play - the responding emergency personnel. Some may
enter the building and be very close to harm's way and others may respond
and have ancillary functions - traffic control, EMS, crowds etc.
As an 18
You get to roll the hoses.
:)
500 gpm on the first and 250 gpm on each of the other three, totaling
1250 gpm. What do I win?
At 08:53 AM 1/5/2009, you wrote:
1,2,3,4.
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500 gpm on the first and 250 gpm on each of the other three, totaling
1250 gpm. What do I win?
At 08:53 AM 1/5/2009, you wrote:
1,2,3,4.
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For Technical
Ron said (I suspect the savings in mains, hydrants,
fire stations, apparatus and firefighters is way more than a wash in
fully sprinklered, planned communities than the cost of sprinklering
schools).
Were these savings realized? Last I read which was a long time ago there
was very little saved
I usually save Forum postings if I expect to need them in the future. Of
course, I thought I knew the rules on dedicated space for electrical equipment
well enough that I did not need to save the latest round of discussion on this
subject. Now I have the following comment on a submittal:
Don't have a 2002 but how does the wording compare to the 2008?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Careful with that all encompassing statement. For Residential Sidewall I
believe that the BackWall Wetting to reduce Flash-over is still a very
important factor. Additionally I've been told that yes there is a certain
percentage of water that does direct back from the standard HSW heads to the
Try this..
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
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Back-wall wetting would be a result of the discharge pattern, the wall is the
recipient of the discharge not the creator.
And while that may be an issue for residential, it's not for other
non-residential applications.
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
Ron,
My answer is maybe yes...but I'd like to know the full extent of the
storage before I agreed.
1. How high is the total storage? The chart is for over 25-feet high.
2. Where are the 2nd and 3rd levels of rack sprinkler located?
3. What is being stored?
Not that any of these questions make a
1,2,3,4.
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Looking at 155°F EC pendents and uprights, 20x20 are standard response and
18x18 (or less) are quick response. In other words, the sprinkler is either 9'
away or 10' away from the fire.
This leads one to believe that it would be possible to have an exposed HSW
listed for a 10' throw for at
Note for residential sidewalls, the 2007 edition section 8.10.7.1.5.2
permits residential sidewalls to be installed above cabinets up to 12
without pendents below.
Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Support Contractor)
Office of Research Services
National Institutes
All Dandy idea's. Now all you need to do is show that there is enough need
for this to have UL and FM develop a standard test for this installation,
then convince the MFG's that the demand for this installation is great
enough for them to spend 100's of thousands of $ to get the testing and
Hey just get an AHJ to sign off on the concept, then it's all good! ;)
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
Hello Craig,
I have an AHJ that suggested back to back sidewall heads under a low
walkway to get the throw out to each side over the open space between the
walkway and the front of the condo unit. The condos connect to the walkway
via a bridge to the front door. There is dirt below the open space
Looks like the language is identical in the 2008 and 2002 editions. NFPA
70-2002: 110.26(F)(1)
(b) Foreign Systems. The area above the dedicated space required by
110.26(F)(1)(a) shall be permitted to contain foreign systems, provided
protection is installed to avoid damage to the
Thanks, Richard. That link worked and I found all postings just as I recalled.
Dave
David A. de Vries, P.E., CSP
Firetech Engineering Incorporated
2715 Harrison St.
Evanston, IL 60201
Tel: 847-733-0944
Fax: 847-866-6255
--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Richard Lindner rklindner.w...@gmail.com
Charles,
That sounds like a project that I would get
called on. Thanks for handling this one. I would
suggest an open head deluge system and with the
right lighting, you could get rainbows (sprinkler bows?).
Todd
At 05:27 PM 1/5/2009, you wrote:
Hello Craig,
I have an AHJ that suggested
If you think your liability went away when the AHJ signed off on an
unlisted installation, think again.
Even if you had a P.E. write the letter and the AHJ accepted it you're the
installer, and still Liable. Check with your insurance underwriter, they
usually have some very fine lawyer's who can
Well, if the passive people can hire big gun FPE firms to stand up and say one
in six sprinkler systems fail to operate in a fire event, then surely we can
dangle a plastic carrot in front of a developer or two.
Wouldn't it then behove the developer to follow through with holding the
Very good point. It reminds me of gift cards. The stores make a ton of extra
money on these cards being bought but not used. Are they to blame?
Rod DiBona
Rapid Fire
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David, You are correct.
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Electrical Inspector
Borough of Red Bank, NJ
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