RE: Excessive air leak rate
We have some items in our specification that may help: · The compressor shall be fitted with an hour meter and number of starts counter. · The air leak rate from the isolated compressor shall not require the compressor to run more than once every 4 hours. The system shall be designed and installed in such a way that the running hours for the compressor do not exceed 2 hours / day and the duty cycle (starts/hour) does not exceed the manufacturer’s recommendations. These were developed by a leading industry engineer here. Nicky Marshall Southern Regional Manager PROTECH DESIGN LIMITED Specialist Fire Protection Consultants Phone: +64 (0)3 579 5577 extn 2 Mobile: +64 (0)21 433 488 Email: ni...@protechdesign.co.nz<mailto:ni...@protechdesign.co.nz> Skype: nicky-marshall Web :www.protechdesign.co.nz Address:105A Alabama Rd, Redwoodtown, Blenheim 7201, NZ Postal: PO Box 4022, Redwood Village, Blenheim 7242, NZ From: AKS-Gmail-IMAP [mailto:aksei...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2016 3:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Excessive air leak rate There you go Mike, your next product, an IOT supervisory air monitor/recorder device. It could be Arduinoed up with a pressure transducer, real time clock, vibration sensor (sense compressor running and track increasing vibration), thumb drive for data storage and wi-fi. There would really be no need for much of any display on the device. Someone’s phone or pad would be where the user would see the data and where the analysis intelligence takes place. What is of interest is trend. In other words change in rate of all things recorded. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO On Dec 2, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Larry Keeping mailto:lkeep...@plcfire.com>> wrote: Hi Mike: I didn’t give a reply before, because I thought it best that the “hands on” guys give you their input rather than my more theoretical ideas. Anyway, since you came up dry with your first query, my answer to the options that you presented is that all of them would be examples of excessive air leakage. Of course it depends on the start / stop pressures, but to my mind if the compressor comes on more than once a day, there is too much leakage. It depends on the type of system too. A low pressure system can’t afford as much leakage as one with a 40 psi pressure and a 5 or 6 to 1 water/air ratio. The reason the requirement changed from the NFPA 25 - 2002 edition text of 10 psi per week to what is in the standard today is because that leak rate (less than 1.5 psi per day) is hard to detect during an inspection. I don’t think the idea is to be totally satisfied with a pressure loss as large as 36 psi per day, but the test is just for something detectable during an annual ITM site visit – 3 psi in 2 hours, which the inspector can measure fairly easily during his time on site, in conjunction with the annual trip test, etc. Anything less would prove difficult to determine. Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: December-02-16 3:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: RE: Excessive air leak rate Since I only received one response, I’ll try this one last time. What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Something else? Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? Feel free to email me off line. Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Excessive air leak rate What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction systems? How many psi per day? An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. That’s pretty tight. NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose. It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That’s a pretty drastic change. Would it help if
Re: Excessive air leak rate
There you go Mike, your next product, an IOT supervisory air monitor/recorder device. It could be Arduinoed up with a pressure transducer, real time clock, vibration sensor (sense compressor running and track increasing vibration), thumb drive for data storage and wi-fi. There would really be no need for much of any display on the device. Someone’s phone or pad would be where the user would see the data and where the analysis intelligence takes place. What is of interest is trend. In other words change in rate of all things recorded. Allan Seidel St. Louis, MO > On Dec 2, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Larry Keeping wrote: > > Hi Mike: > > I didn’t give a reply before, because I thought it best that the “hands on” > guys give you their input rather than my more theoretical ideas. > > Anyway, since you came up dry with your first query, my answer to the options > that you presented is that all of them would be examples of excessive air > leakage. > > Of course it depends on the start / stop pressures, but to my mind if the > compressor comes on more than once a day, there is too much leakage. It > depends on the type of system too. A low pressure system can’t afford as much > leakage as one with a 40 psi pressure and a 5 or 6 to 1 water/air ratio. > > The reason the requirement changed from the NFPA 25 - 2002 edition text of 10 > psi per week to what is in the standard today is because that leak rate (less > than 1.5 psi per day) is hard to detect during an inspection. > > I don’t think the idea is to be totally satisfied with a pressure loss as > large as 36 psi per day, but the test is just for something detectable during > an annual ITM site visit – 3 psi in 2 hours, which the inspector can measure > fairly easily during his time on site, in conjunction with the annual trip > test, etc. Anything less would prove difficult to determine. > > Larry Keeping > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Mike Henke > Sent: December-02-16 3:41 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Excessive air leak rate > > Since I only received one response, I’ll try this one last time. > > What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems > or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? > > How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? > When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? > When the compressor burns out? > When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? > When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? > Something else? > > Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or > approaching the maximum allowable rate? > > Feel free to email me off line. > > > Kind Regards, > > mike > > Mike Henke CET > Sprinkler Product Manager > ___ > > > > Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC > 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 > phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 > > mi...@pottersignal.com <mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | > www.pottersignal.com <http://www.pottersignal.com/> > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org > <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>] On Behalf Of Mike > Henke > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> > Subject: Excessive air leak rate > > What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction > systems? > How many psi per day? > > An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. > That’s pretty tight. > > NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty > loose. > > It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 > psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That’s a pretty drastic change. > > Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or > approaching the maximum allowable rate? > > How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? > When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? > When the compressor burns out? > When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? > When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? > > Kind Regards, > > mike > > Mike Henke CET > Sprinkler Product Manager > ___ > > > > Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC > 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042
RE: Excessive air leak rate
Hi Mike: I didn't give a reply before, because I thought it best that the "hands on" guys give you their input rather than my more theoretical ideas. Anyway, since you came up dry with your first query, my answer to the options that you presented is that all of them would be examples of excessive air leakage. Of course it depends on the start / stop pressures, but to my mind if the compressor comes on more than once a day, there is too much leakage. It depends on the type of system too. A low pressure system can't afford as much leakage as one with a 40 psi pressure and a 5 or 6 to 1 water/air ratio. The reason the requirement changed from the NFPA 25 - 2002 edition text of 10 psi per week to what is in the standard today is because that leak rate (less than 1.5 psi per day) is hard to detect during an inspection. I don't think the idea is to be totally satisfied with a pressure loss as large as 36 psi per day, but the test is just for something detectable during an annual ITM site visit - 3 psi in 2 hours, which the inspector can measure fairly easily during his time on site, in conjunction with the annual trip test, etc. Anything less would prove difficult to determine. Larry Keeping From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: December-02-16 3:41 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Excessive air leak rate Since I only received one response, I'll try this one last time. What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Something else? Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? Feel free to email me off line. Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ [http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Subject: Excessive air leak rate What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction systems? How many psi per day? An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. That's pretty tight. NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose. It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That's a pretty drastic change. Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ [http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Excessive air leak rate
I must be the only person working today. Did I miss a holiday? 25-2014 13.4.4.2.9 . Page 436 of NFPA 25-2014 Handbook (1) Air at 40 PSI for 2 hours, 3 PSI loss or less is OK (2) Normal air pressure, with air source off for 4 hours. If low pressure alarm goes off within the 4 hours period, the leaks shall be fixed. From: Mike Henke Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:40 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Excessive air leak rate Since I only received one response, I’ll try this one last time. What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Something else? Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? Feel free to email me off line. Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com | www.pottersignal.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Excessive air leak rate What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction systems? How many psi per day? An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. That’s pretty tight. NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose. It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That’s a pretty drastic change. Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com | www.pottersignal.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Re: Excessive air leak rate
What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? in my experience a compressor should not even run every day...once every few days to a week on a typical system. More than that is not acceptable. How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? All of the items below sometimes.. When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Something else? false trips Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? if it were in combination with the low air alarm yesif it requires more hardware, trim etc, only in some instances. Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Mike Henke wrote: > Since I only received one response, I’ll try this one last time. > > > > What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction > systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? > > > > How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? > > When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? > > When the compressor burns out? > > When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? > > When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? > > Something else? > > > > Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or > approaching the maximum allowable rate? > > > > Feel free to email me off line. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > mike > > > > *Mike Henke CET* > > Sprinkler Product Manager > > ___ > > > > [image: http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] > > > > Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC > > 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 > > phone: 800-325-3936 <(800)%20325-3936> | direct: 314-595-6740 > <(314)%20595-6740> > > > > mi...@pottersignal.com | www.pottersignal.com > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > org] *On Behalf Of *Mike Henke > *Sent:* Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM > *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > *Subject:* Excessive air leak rate > > > > What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or > preaction systems? > > How many psi per day? > > > > An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 > hours. That’s pretty tight. > > > > NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty > loose. > > > > It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is > 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That’s a pretty drastic change. > > > > Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or > approaching the maximum allowable rate? > > > > How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? > > When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? > > When the compressor burns out? > > When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? > > When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > mike > > > > *Mike Henke CET* > > Sprinkler Product Manager > > ___ > > > > [image: http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] > > > > Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC > > 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 > > phone: 800-325-3936 <(800)%20325-3936> | direct: 314-595-6740 > <(314)%20595-6740> > > > > mi...@pottersignal.com | www.pottersignal.com > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Excessive air leak rate
Since I only received one response, I'll try this one last time. What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Something else? Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? Feel free to email me off line. Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ [http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Excessive air leak rate What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction systems? How many psi per day? An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. That's pretty tight. NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose. It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That's a pretty drastic change. Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ [http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Excessive air leak rate
What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction systems? How many psi per day? An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. That's pretty tight. NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose. It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi per day, to 36 psi per day. That's a pretty drastic change. Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or approaching the maximum allowable rate? How do you know that you have an excessive air leak? When someone complains about the compressor running all the time? When the compressor burns out? When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test? When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals? Kind Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager ___ [http://www.pottersignal.com/signatures/graphics/logo.jpg] Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC 1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042 phone: 800-325-3936 | direct: 314-595-6740 mi...@pottersignal.com<mailto:mi...@pottersignal.com> | www.pottersignal.com<http://www.pottersignal.com/> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
