Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Domingo Alvarez Duarte]

Hello James !

Definitely you've made a very good point !

Thumbs up !

Cheers !

On 16/3/20 17:37, James K. Lowden wrote:

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:22:46 -0400
Richard Hipp  wrote:


4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

While I have no illusions of altering the online trajectory of this ML,
I'd like to point out that email addresses foster community.

Studies and experience both show that the incidental availability of
email addresses invites the formation of new relationships through
off-list communication. Speaking for myself, that opportunity has
manifested several new connections and even professional
opportunities.

I value those relationships.  I'm sorry this forum will cease to be a
place where new ones will develop.

--jkl
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[James K. Lowden]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:22:46 -0400
Richard Hipp  wrote:

> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

While I have no illusions of altering the online trajectory of this ML,
I'd like to point out that email addresses foster community.

Studies and experience both show that the incidental availability of
email addresses invites the formation of new relationships through
off-list communication. Speaking for myself, that opportunity has
manifested several new connections and even professional
opportunities.  

I value those relationships.  I'm sorry this forum will cease to be a
place where new ones will develop.  

--jkl
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Jens Alfke]

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:54 AM, no...@null.net wrote:
> 
> By chance or by design most emails to this list, like yours above, came
> wrapped at a length suitable for text-based readers. Yet every message
> I've received from the forum is a shocking cut-words-in-half affair in
> my terminal.

There’s a long-established email line-break-encoding convention called 
“format-flowed” you can thank for that. It allows the encoded text to be broken 
into 72-column lines while still noting where the actual line breaks are.

This way those newfangled mail clients with the astonishing ability to reflow 
text to the user’s desired width — some even use futuristic “proportional 
fonts” that were recently invented in the 1400s — can work their crazy magic, 
while the typical user reading on a VT100 or Teletype is not inconvenienced.

Seriously, RFC822 email is chock full of little affordances and edge cases like 
this. It’s not the sort of thing one blithely wades into. That’s part of the 
reason I gave for leaving forum software implementation to the experts, or at 
least to those who’ve had years to fix these kinds of mistakes.

—Jens
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[nomad]

On Fri Mar 13, 2020 at 11:22:46AM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh  wrote:
> > [On a mailing nlist] I can
> > filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> > forward them to a friend, 
> 
> You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
> can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many

By chance or by design most emails to this list, like yours above, came
wrapped at a length suitable for text-based readers. Yet every message
I've received from the forum is a shocking cut-words-in-half affair in
my terminal.  There have been several other topics raised already on
the forum about the email format. Your statements above and below imply
that the only thing list users will miss is composing, but that is a
clearly premature position to take.

> things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
> example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
> the entire history with one command:
> ..
> Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
> you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
> You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
> any way you want.

Not something I've ever needed or would want to dedicate disk space
towards. Web-indexable contents enables search engines do a better job
of categorizing and linking than I could do, and don't want to spend
the time doing. What is the typical use case here?

> use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
> this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
> they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
> and hence results in a better experience for the readers.

Posting too early is not something I can say I've noticed many people
doing.

> There are other important features that the forum provides that
> mailinglists typically do not:
> 
> 1.  You can format your postings using Markdown

Useful to those who prefer to read messages in a browser, I guess. Not
much of an advantage to those who prefer to read text. My client
doesn't seem to mangle EXPLAIN output like yours does.

> 2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
> displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various
> email clients.

I don't quite understand this one.

> 3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.

Fair enough.

> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

That is a mailing list configuration item, not a core difference
between a list and a forum.

> 5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
> than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
> process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
> press "Submit".

Fair enough, if having an open mailing list comes with too many other
costs.

> 6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious
> content.

Ok.

> The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
> was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
> EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
> readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
> would have been much easier to read and understand.
> 
> I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
> regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
> come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
> for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.

It is your project and your time spent managing the list (for which I
and many others are grateful) so your choice to make. I do however
think your approach was a little too fast and somewhat dismissive of
the concerns of subscribers and the cost to the community.

I would estimate that more around half of the value of this mailing
list come from discussion of topics outside of SQLite, and from several
key individuals willing to share their advanced knowledge and ideas.
That we will likely lose some of them, and/or the spontaneous
discussions that the mix of beginner and advanced, is a shame, and
could have been avoided.

-- 
Mark Lawrence
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Petite Abeille]

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 23:09, Michael Falconer  
> wrote:
> 
> So I'll take the opportunity now to thank (too many to single out) the many 
> contributors to this list who have made it unique, and well...just a nice 
> place to be.

So long, and thanks for all the fish :)

Will miss this place. Good bye and good luck to all. Take care.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Michael Falconer]

Ahthe inevitable becomes reality. I knew when this stuff surfaced a few
years back that it was not going to go away, and this outcome was just a
matter of time. Not a great a great shock as a life in programming has seen
so much change. I don't need to Fossil, because I am one. Also a bit of a
lurker who has enjoyed lurking here for years because of the excellent
standard of technical replies and the interesting banter that evolves from
differing technical opinions. So I'll take the opportunity now to thank
(too many to single out) the many contributors to this list who have made
it unique, and well...just a nice place to be.

So while you are all off playing with your interface, javascript forum
thingy's I guess I'll have to find somewhere else to go. You'll notice I
did not mention any specific technical objections and that's because
sometimes (even in I.T.) it's just not about the tech! Can't help feeling
that someone just shot my dog!



On Sat, 14 Mar 2020 at 07:01, Jim Dodgen  wrote:

> Another lurker here ...
> I have always preferred mailing lists and found forums to be too fat.  That
> said, I like the fossil forum.  It was referred to bring a "enginerish"
> style which is fine given the audience
> Kudos for its speed and light weight,  No fluff just data.
>
> Jim "Jed" Dodgen
> j...@dodgen.us
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:24 PM Simon Slavin 
> wrote:
>
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz  wrote:
> >
> > > Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list
> > and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)
> >
> > I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent
> > email spam.
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> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> >
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>


-- 
Regards,
 Michael.j.Falconer.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Jim Dodgen]

Another lurker here ...
I have always preferred mailing lists and found forums to be too fat.  That
said, I like the fossil forum.  It was referred to bring a "enginerish"
style which is fine given the audience
Kudos for its speed and light weight,  No fluff just data.

Jim "Jed" Dodgen
j...@dodgen.us


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:24 PM Simon Slavin  wrote:

> On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz  wrote:
>
> > Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list
> and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)
>
> I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent
> email spam.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Simon Slavin]

On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz  wrote:

> Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and 
> vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)

I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent email 
spam.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[P Kishor]

In a way it already does… not to the mailing list but to the email address of 
everyone registered on the forum. The key thing you can’t do is post via email. 

My personal view is there never be a solution that will please everyone. But it 
is Richard’s software and Richard’s game, and we have to take his word that the 
web-based forum is better and give it a chance. That way we can focus on 
solving SQLite-related problems instead of web/email/forum related problems.

Fwiw, I like the new forum because of the few key differences already mentioned 
by Richard – editing, formatting, threading (and don’t like a few things – 
readability, styling – but these can be tweaked). I know many don’t like it, 
but that is how it is. I hope we can give the new forum a chance.

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Thomas Kurz  wrote:
> 
> Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and 
> vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)

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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Thomas Kurz]

Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and vice 
versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)


- Original Message - 
From: Richard Hipp 
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database 
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020, 21:17:59
Subject: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

https://sqlite.org/forum
https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
forum will eventually replace this mailing list.

The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
second link above for more information.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Huỳnh Trần Khanh]

> I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to 
> mail, even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of 
> the forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment 
> on the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new 
> message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like 
> email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well 
> make sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the 
> exact opposite with forum posts.

Couldn't agree more. I am a teenager who has to go to school and
attend classes regularly, and some of the days I am very, very busy.
The natural quoting style ubiquitous in emails means that I can
quickly scan through the message without missing much context. At the
end of the day I need to be productive.


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:15 PM Jay Kreibich  wrote:
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> >
> > On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh  wrote:
> >> [On a mailing nlist] I can
> >> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> >> forward them to a friend, 
> >
> > You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> > is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> > list,
>
> I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to 
> mail, even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of 
> the forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment 
> on the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new 
> message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like 
> email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well 
> make sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the 
> exact opposite with forum posts.
>
> I’m not saying the forum isn’t better for the team, simply that they’re not 
> equal.  And at the end of the day, forums must be engaged in actively (I need 
> to go visit it), while email is passive (it comes to me in a media I scan 
> regularly).  For someone that is largely a lurker these days, it was easy to 
> just watch messages go by and jump in if needed, having most of the context 
> of the conversation.  With a forum, the email notifications are much less 
> useful (and less likely to trigger the “Oh, I know that..” response), and I’m 
> never going to go visit the forum just to see what’s up.
>
> This might be better for the community, but it largely means I’m out of the 
> community.  I’m not sure that’s a particular loss for me, or the community, 
> as I’ve not been very active for a decade or so.
>
>   -j
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Richard Hipp]

On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
> Should I write to you directly, or to the Fossil forum?

Either one (or both) will be fine.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Philip Bennefall]

I am happy to do that, but I can't promise any kind of timeline as it 
will have to be in my free time only. Can't really sign well, though, as 
I am totally blind. But I guess we'll cross that bridge if I come up 
with a working audio captcha solution.


I'll have a look at the Fossil captcha code this evening and write back 
if I have questions. Should I write to you directly, or to the Fossil forum?


Thanks!

Philip


On 3/13/2020 5:16 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall  wrote:

I submitted
a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil,

I don't recall that thread.  But if you want to submit code that
generates an audio file of some kind that speaks the text of a Fossil
Captcha, that would be great.  I will build it into the system,
assuming it works, does not have onerous external dependencies, and
you can get me a signed CLA.



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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Richard Hipp]

On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
> I submitted
> a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil,

I don't recall that thread.  But if you want to submit code that
generates an audio file of some kind that speaks the text of a Fossil
Captcha, that would be great.  I will build it into the system,
assuming it works, does not have onerous external dependencies, and
you can get me a signed CLA.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Jay Kreibich]

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh  wrote:
>> [On a mailing nlist] I can
>> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
>> forward them to a friend, 
> 
> You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> list,

I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to mail, 
even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of the 
forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment on 
the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new 
message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like 
email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well make 
sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the exact 
opposite with forum posts.

I’m not saying the forum isn’t better for the team, simply that they’re not 
equal.  And at the end of the day, forums must be engaged in actively (I need 
to go visit it), while email is passive (it comes to me in a media I scan 
regularly).  For someone that is largely a lurker these days, it was easy to 
just watch messages go by and jump in if needed, having most of the context of 
the conversation.  With a forum, the email notifications are much less useful 
(and less likely to trigger the “Oh, I know that..” response), and I’m never 
going to go visit the forum just to see what’s up.

This might be better for the community, but it largely means I’m out of the 
community.  I’m not sure that’s a particular loss for me, or the community, as 
I’ve not been very active for a decade or so.

  -j


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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Philip Bennefall]

If you are comfortable doing that for any blind users who stop by, then 
of course that would be a quick fix. But it feels like taking a step 
backwards, from being able to subscribe without assistance to having to 
contact the author of whatever Fossil forum this applies to. I submitted 
a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil, 
but cannot locate the exact post. I did not receive much response at the 
time, but am wondering if this would be of interest?


Thanks!

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
On 3/13/2020 4:53 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall  wrote:

Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the
forum for visually impaired users?

The solution is for you to send me a private email asking for me to
create your account for you, as doing that is way, way easier than
trying to engineer an audible captcha.



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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Richard Hipp]

On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall  wrote:
> Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the
> forum for visually impaired users?

The solution is for you to send me a private email asking for me to
create your account for you, as doing that is way, way easier than
trying to engineer an audible captcha.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Philip Bennefall]

Hi Richard,


Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the 
forum for visually impaired users? I brought this up when the forum was 
first released and you kindly created an account manually for me, but it 
doesn't seem as though the problem was actually solved in the system 
itself. I just tried to create an account on the SqLite forum, but could 
not. The absolute majority of captcha systems offer some kind of audio 
version now, which is very important for me and other blind users.



Kind regards,


Philip Bennefall


On 3/13/2020 4:22 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh  wrote:

[On a mailing nlist] I can
filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
forward them to a friend, 

You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many
things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
the entire history with one command:

 fossil clone https://sqlite.org/forum sqlite-forum.fossil

Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
any way you want.

The only thing that you can do with a mailing list that the SQLite
Forum does not allow is to submit new postings via email.  You must
use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
and hence results in a better experience for the readers.

There are other important features that the forum provides that
mailinglists typically do not:

1.  You can format your postings using Markdown

2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various email
clients.

3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.

4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
press "Submit".

6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious content.

The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
would have been much easier to read and understand.

I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.


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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Richard Hipp]

On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh  wrote:
> [On a mailing nlist] I can
> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> forward them to a friend, 

You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many
things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
the entire history with one command:

fossil clone https://sqlite.org/forum sqlite-forum.fossil

Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
any way you want.

The only thing that you can do with a mailing list that the SQLite
Forum does not allow is to submit new postings via email.  You must
use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
and hence results in a better experience for the readers.

There are other important features that the forum provides that
mailinglists typically do not:

1.  You can format your postings using Markdown

2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various email
clients.

3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.

4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
press "Submit".

6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious content.

The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
would have been much easier to read and understand.

I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Huỳnh Trần Khanh]

No. Web-based forums are terrible. I prefer mailing lists. I can
filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
forward them to a friend,  The same experience **can't be
replicated** on a web-based forum. Also the styling is terrible.

At the very least I'd love a feature where I could subscribe to the
forum and interact with the forum in the same way I would with mailing
lists.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 8:14 PM Jose Isaias Cabrera  wrote:
>
>
> x, on Friday, March 13, 2020 09:01 AM, wrote...
> >
> > * I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions
> > to
> > the SQLite community.
> >
> I would say to the SQL world.
>
> josé
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Jose Isaias Cabrera]

x, on Friday, March 13, 2020 09:01 AM, wrote...
>
> * I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions
> to
> the SQLite community.
>
I would say to the SQL world.

josé
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[x]

  *   I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions to
the SQLite community.



Ditto.



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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[dirdi]

Since Fossil was founded and is developed by drh as well, this step was
not that unpredictable.

If you compare the forum to the mailing list the only drawback I can see
is that one is no longer able to contribute via mail:

   | Mailing list | Forum
---+--+-
Web Interface  | Read [0] | Read & Write
Mail Interface | Read & Write | Read

Like BohwaZ already suggested, this could be mitigated by making it
> possible to add the ability in Fossil to handle incoming
> email replies to forum posts?
>
> So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
> to alerts and then replying to notifications.

Of course only mails by registered users should be accepted, to keep
spam low.

Maybe someone wants to open a feature request over at the Fossil SCM
forum for this [1].

my 2 cent

[0] https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/
[1] https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forum
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Mike King]

As an occasional poster I like the idea of a forum as for me it's easier to
dip in and follow threads (after lots of years of using System.Data.Sqlite
I'm reluctantly moving over to using the Microsoft drivers because it
supports EF Core).

For the look and feel, it's plain but it's functional. I'm reminded of the
quote from Deng Xiaoping  "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat;
as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat."

Cheers,

Mike

On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 20:18, Richard Hipp  wrote:

> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
> https://sqlite.org/forum
> https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac
>
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
> forum will eventually replace this mailing list.
>
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
> second link above for more information.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Ling, Andy]

> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the forum 
> will eventually replace this mailing list.

Having just had a go at subscribing, I screwed up and mistyped my email address.
Is there any way for me to change it?

Regards

Andy Ling


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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Kees Nuyt]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:09:38 +, you wrote:

>On 13 Mar 2020, at 09:35, Peter da Silva  wrote:
>
>> What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
>> I can barely keep up with it.
>
> As a lurker I can say that this mailing list suits just
> fine. Another forum means another username/password I have
> to manage. 

I'm mostly a lurker myself. I lurk many mailing lists, all
require a username/password. One more doesn't matter much.
My experience with the fossil-forum is positive, it has not
changed my reading habits. I just subscribed to its email
notifications, and I get everything threaded in the same way
as a mailing list.

> On a list, the contributions come in date order
> which is easier to manage than, rather than as with a forum,
> having them grouped by thread. In fact, with this list,
> there's no management at all required. An advantage of
> writing one's own email client is extra added features which
> are just right for me: I can limit the size of a mailbox to
> a certain number of mails. For the sqlite list, it's 10k
> mails. More than that and the oldest get moved to the Trash
> automatically.
> It's all I need.

With a subscription to email notifications of the sqlite-forum
you can lurk in just the same way as the sqlite-users mailing list.
Threaded or in date order, whatever your email client supports.
Just try it, your worries will vanish soon.

-- 
Regards,
Kees Nuyt
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Dominique Devienne]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:05 AM Keith Medcalf  wrote:

> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my
> life.  Good luck with it.
>

I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions to
the SQLite community.

Things will inevitably move over to the Forum I'm afraid, but I'd
rather you registered to the forum
(one time setup, with email notifications) and replied on the (deprecated)
ML, rather than having
none your usual insightful answers because you decided to stay exclusively
on the ML (or worse,
if you completely gave up on both). FWIW. --DD

PS: I kinda recall the prospect of switching to a forum wasn't exactly well
received last time it
  was discussed on this ML, and especially so from "heavyweights" of this
ML, it's thus disappointing
  Richard forced that switch on us.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Tim Streater]

On 13 Mar 2020, at 09:35, Peter da Silva  wrote:

> What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
> I can barely keep up with it.

As a lurker I can say that this mailing list suits just fine. Another forum 
means another username/password I have to manage. On a list, the contributions 
come in date order which is easier to manage than, rather than as with a forum, 
having them grouped by thread. In fact, with this list, there's no management 
at all required. An advantage of writing one's own email client is extra added 
features which are just right for me: I can limit the size of a mailbox to a 
certain number of mails. For the sqlite list, it's 10k mails. More than that 
and the oldest get moved to the Trash automatically.

It's all I need.


-- 
Cheers  --  Tim
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Peter da Silva]

What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
I can barely keep up with it.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Rowan Worth]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 08:15, Jens Alfke  wrote:

> In a messaging system, the user interface is critically important.


Agree absolutely!

I don't think it matters much whether the SQLite forum can render a page in
> "about 0.003s" as it says in the footer.


But I take issue with this -- I find latency is a critical part of a user
interface, and the vast majority of websites and mobile apps I encounter
just get worse and worse in this area. Granted most of that is probably not
rendering time, but I find it incredibly frustrating having to wait for
billions of cycles for the UI to get ready to accept my input.

What's important is usability — following discussions, finding new content,
> reading it, and composing messages.



The forum, from my brief experience today, is really awkward.
>

I can't figure out what you're actually objecting to, because the
information currently on the forum seems be arranged sensibly and fit the
criteria of being easy to read and follow.

Finding content is impossible to assess at present, although the search
functionality seems broken -- which I posted about and the composition
process was painless.

-Rowan
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[ingo]

Can we clone (push, pull, sync) the forum fossil?

Ingo

On 12-3-2020 21:17, Richard Hipp wrote:

The Forum is powered by Fossil.

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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Wout Mertens]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:15 AM Jens Alfke  wrote:
>
> > On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> >
> > I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
> Oh crap.
>
> > The Forum is powered by Fossil.
>
> I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I strongly 
> disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something like 
> Discourse.

Normally I would say the same, but it's insane how much faster the
Fossil Forum is than Discourse.

I'd say this is a great showcase of SQLite's prowess, and while the
interface is decidedly engineerish, it's very usable. I look forward
to seeing it in action!
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Wout Mertens]

The nice thing about web browsers, you can apply your own styling.
There's extensions that help with that, like StyleBot.

Wout.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:05 AM Keith Medcalf  wrote:
>
>
> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  
> Good luck with it.
>
>
> --
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
> lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: sqlite-users  On
> >Behalf Of Richard Hipp
> >Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2020 15:29
> >To: SQLite mailing list 
> >Subject: Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is
> >deprecated
> >
> >On 3/12/20, no...@null.net  wrote:
> >> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> >> anti-spam features are present.
> >
> >I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
> >the Forum.  :-)
> >
> >--
> >D. Richard Hipp
> >d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Stephen Chrzanowski]

I've read a bunch of the posts here, and quite honestly, I'm kind of
looking forward to having Fossil send me notes that messages have been
added, then, if I want to reply, I just log into the site and do the
reply.  I'm not 100% sure about the anon sending to Fossil, if that's a
thing I thought I read somewhere, but at least my email address doesn't end
up in a public forum and find myself signed up to a dating site.  .. well..
at least until the mailing list is shut down.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 4:18 PM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
> https://sqlite.org/forum
> https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac
>
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
> forum will eventually replace this mailing list.
>
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
> second link above for more information.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Warren Young]

On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:15 PM, Jens Alfke  wrote:
> 
> I strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something 
> like Discourse.

Unlike SQLite proper, the Fossil project accepts outside contributions without 
a whole lot of gatekeeping.  I myself have made a few improvements to Fossil, 
including to its forum feature.

> What's important is usability — following discussions

The stock CSS for Fossil forums color threads with new posts differently.  
There’s message threading, and there’s email alerts on top of that so you can 
continue to use your preferred MUA to follow threads.

What more do you need?

> finding new content

Fossil’s built-in message searching capabilities are likely as good as those in 
your mail reader or in a mailing list manager.

And if you identify a lack, the person responsible for adding features to FTS5 
is also the person you’re upset at for this change, so maybe he’ll be receptive 
to your wishes for improvement.

> reading it

…which you can continue to do in your mail reader.

> and composing messages.

What features do you need here?  Most email messages are short, so while a 
browser’s textarea control isn’t super powerful, it’s usually sufficient.

Between that and the power of Fossil flavored Markdown, I rarely find myself 
needing more power.  And I say that as one who’s been using Fossil forums since 
their inception.

> There's a reason many people cling to mailing lists as their preferred 
> messaging system: email clients have evolved for nearly 50 years to be good 
> messaging clients.

I’d say it’s more because email is a lingua franca for online communication, 
one of the few truly federated mechanisms, beholden to no single corporation 
for its existence.

And Fossil forums embraces email quite well on the outbound side.

If you think you can solve the inbound side as well, Fossil has the beginnings 
of an SMTP server in it already.  I think it’s a massive project, which 
explains why it’s unfinished, but it’s there for someone interested.

> In a nutshell: by building a forum you're moving way outside your core 
> competency. It would be wiser to outsource this to a product that's been 
> built for this purpose by people who are really good at it.

This isn’t brand new functionality.  It’s been baking for most of two years.  
(The feature's approximate birthday is 2018-06-14.)

> Personally, I don't have SQLite questions all that often. I hang out in the 
> mailing list because it's easy to follow it in my email client and it's 
> convenient to post and reply. 

…which you can still do with the new SQLite forum.

> The forum, from my brief experience today, is really awkward.

From my ~2 years of experience, it isn’t all that awkward.  It’s not whizzy, 
but it is functional and useful.

It’s worth noting that Fossil's forum feature also builds on several much older 
pieces of tech.  At a low level, Fossil forums are just specialized 
applications of the pre-existing wiki code!  Some of the stuff that underpins 
the forum feature goes back to its very roots.

This isn’t something drh just hacked up last weekend.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[J. King]

On March 12, 2020 8:15:15 p.m. EDT, Jens Alfke  wrote:
>
>
>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
>> 
>> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing
>list:
>
>Oh crap.
>
>> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  
>
>I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I
>strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than
>something like Discourse.

I will never be able to understand how anyone could hold up Discourse as 
superior to, well, anything. It's slow, it has poor UI feedback, and it 
surprises me continually. 

So far the SQLite forum seems fine enough to me (though I would have definitely 
preferred the mailing list continue), and definitely better than Discourse. 

To each their own, though!

-- 
J. King
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[J. King]

On March 12, 2020 8:06:47 p.m. EDT, Petite Abeille  
wrote:

>
>Also, would it be possible to actually mark such emails to include
>proper List Header Fields, e.g.:

I had the same thought, but would that really be appropriate? Unless you could 
post to it like a list, anyway. 
-- 
J. King
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Jens Alfke]

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

Oh crap.

> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  

I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I strongly 
disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something like Discourse.

In a messaging system, the user interface is critically important. I don't 
think it matters much whether the SQLite forum can render a page in "about 
0.003s" as it says in the footer. What's important is usability — following 
discussions, finding new content, reading it, and composing messages.

There's a reason many people cling to mailing lists as their preferred 
messaging system: email clients have evolved for nearly 50 years to be good 
messaging clients. If you like mail apps there are really good ones like Apple 
Mail and Outlook, if you like using a website then Gmail etc. are pretty good, 
and if you're a CLI guy there are great terminal-based ones.

It's very easy to slap together some HTML tables and textareas and have a 
functional forum GUI. It will suck, though. The kind of things that make 
web-based forums work well are difficult to do, and in my experience there are 
few implementations that really work well — the only ones that come to mind are 
Discourse, Google Groups, and groups.io .

In a nutshell: by building a forum you're moving way outside your core 
competency. It would be wiser to outsource this to a product that's been built 
for this purpose by people who are really good at it.

Personally, I don't have SQLite questions all that often. I hang out in the 
mailing list because it's easy to follow it in my email client and it's 
convenient to post and reply. The forum, from my brief experience today, is 
really awkward. I may not be showing up there very often.

—Jens
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Petite Abeille]

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 01:04, Keith Medcalf  wrote:
> 
> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  
> Good luck with it.

If only this was confine to the esthetics. But yes, horrible sums it up.

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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Petite Abeille]

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 00:54, BohwaZ  wrote:
> 
> So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
> to alerts and then replying to notifications.

Also, would it be possible to actually mark such emails to include proper List 
Header Fields, e.g.:

   List-Id: List Header Mailing List 
   List-Help: 
   List-Unsubscribe: 
   List-Subscribe: 
   List-Post: 
   List-Owner:  (Contact Person for Help)
   List-Archive: 


https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5983 

Anyway, tried the forum 'notification'. Very subpar, much like the entire 
'forum' experience. Unsubscribed. To each their own I guess. 
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Keith Medcalf]

Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  
Good luck with it.


-- 
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

>-Original Message-
>From: sqlite-users  On
>Behalf Of Richard Hipp
>Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2020 15:29
>To: SQLite mailing list 
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is
>deprecated
>
>On 3/12/20, no...@null.net  wrote:
>> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
>> anti-spam features are present.
>
>I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
>the Forum.  :-)
>
>--
>D. Richard Hipp
>d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[BohwaZ]

Kia ora,

Like with the Fossil list I did subscribe and switch to the forum, but
wouldn't it be possible to add the ability in Fossil to handle incoming
email replies to forum posts?

So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
to alerts and then replying to notifications.

It would be a perfect solution for my use of Fossil as well.

Would that feature would be accepted in Fossil if someone (probably not
me, I lack the time right now sorry) would submit a patch?

Cheers.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Domingo Alvarez Duarte]

Hello Richard !

I like the concept of fossil including the forum functionality !

With that said we are in a database forum and most of us know that one 
common problem/task with databases is migration, there is any 
plan/attempt to migrate the actual mailing list to the new fossil forum ?


That would be a good way to see how the fossil forum would perform with 
some non trivial amount of data and would be an example that can attract 
more users/conversions from other forum platforms.


Cheers !

On 12/3/20 21:17, Richard Hipp wrote:

I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

 https://sqlite.org/forum
 https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
forum will eventually replace this mailing list.

The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
second link above for more information.


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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Petite Abeille]

> On Mar 12, 2020, at 21:17, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> a replacement for this mailing list:

Tragic. Oh well. Anyhow, thanks for SQLite itself :)

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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Warren Young]

On Mar 12, 2020, at 2:59 PM, no...@null.net wrote:
> 
> I would like to add my resistance "vote."

If experience on the Fossil mailing list is any guide, this mailing list will 
be a ghost town soon.  There have been just a few threads on the mailing list 
in the years since we started the forum, despite all the complaints leading up 
to the move.

Meanwhile, the forum is just as busy as the old mailing list was, maybe more so.

This SQLite mailing list has a higher posting rate than the Fossil Forum, but 
it probably also a greater percentage of “just plain users” than for Fossil, so 
I see no reason for the pattern not to repeat.

> For experienced vim/emacs/$EDITOR users, Email composition via web
> browser is one of the most debilitating experiences that can be
> imposed.

There is probably an $EDITOR key binding for your browser.

Alternately, you can compose in your preferred editor and copy-paste the result 
into the web page.

Realize that Fossil forums allow email subscription of posted messages, so from 
a pure reading standpoint, it’s not much different than with Mailman.

Based on my archives, you post to this list about once every 3 weeks on 
average.  I dearly hope that you have no problems greater than a slight 
inconvenience at that frequency.

> I also fear the loss of reading quality
> in my email client as Markdown-isms or html content take hold.

Fossil forums use Markdown by default, and experience on the Fossil Forum shows 
that most people either post in plain text or with minimal Markdown syntax.

Markdown syntax in forum posts is generally not much different than what you’d 
find in regular plain text email messages, such as *emphasis* and some way of 
posting URLs.

Keep in mind that Markdown is basically a formalization of existing text 
communication practices going back decades.  It is not a wholly new syntax.

Fossil's forum feature does *not* allow arbitrary HTML.

Both Markdown and Fossil Wiki syntaxes allow some minimal HTML, but you usually 
only see that used when the main markup syntax doesn’t allow a thing to be 
done.  And that rarely.

> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> anti-spam features are present.

It’s in the docs:

  https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/antibot.wiki

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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Richard Hipp]

On 3/12/20, no...@null.net  wrote:
> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> anti-spam features are present.

I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
the Forum.  :-)

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[nomad]

On Thu Mar 12, 2020 at 04:17:59PM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
> 
> https://sqlite.org/forum
> https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

I know this topic has already been discussed deeply on this list, but I
would like to add my resistance "vote."

For experienced vim/emacs/$EDITOR users, Email composition via web
browser is one of the most debilitating experiences that can be
imposed.  I have kept well away from Gmail-like platforms for this
reason. In the other direction I also fear the loss of reading quality
in my email client as Markdown-isms or html content take hold.

On a purely technical note, although I haven't looked at the web
interface in detail, I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
anti-spam features are present. It seems rather easy to Preview and
Submit as anonymous.

-- 
Mark Lawrence
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Scott Robison]

They can subscribe to the forum too. :)

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 2:40 PM Simon Slavin  wrote:

> Well, that'll annoy the nabble people.  And I can live with that.
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Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

[Simon Slavin]

Well, that'll annoy the nabble people.  And I can live with that.
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