Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Hi Martin,

Martin Guy  writes:

> On-topic again, the current banner on sugarlabs.org is "Sugar Labs
> contributes to and helps maintain the award-winning Sugar Learning
> Platform" which I'm 100% in line with, maybe with "and promoting the
> adoption/diffusion/use of".

Yes, that's certainly what Sugar Labs is about and it's good that a
community is maintaining Sugar.

But I somehow sense that Sugar Labs could be more by becoming a "place
to learn beyond" Sugar itself, welcoming initiatives like Music Blocks
and other free software that follows some core design principles and a
share philosophy about how FOSS could help in the educational field.

At least, I don't see any other community in the world with such a
potential.

To draw a fragile (and somewhat risky) analogy, Sugar Labs could be to
Sugar what Mozilla is to Firefox: the Mother Ship of a large community
sharing a distinct set of values.  Part of this community works on a
great software, Firefox, but others work on other tools and all "make
the web a better place" by producing free software and by pushing for
open standard as much as possible.

I hope that clarifies the "switch" I'm suggesting here :)

-- 
 Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Thanks Walter for your thorough answer!

I'm well, thanks, and I hope no one here suffers too much from the
Covid-19 crisis.

Walter Bender  writes:

> I am still an Emacs user. Would be completely lost without it.

Same here ;)

> I think that for the most part James has already answered these
> questions, so I will jump right into my personal reflections below.

Yes, I've got all my questions answered by James (thanks again), so
maybe the initial idea of a "State of Sugar" is not a good idea.

> I remain passionate about Sugar, but we missed some important
> opportunities over the years that would have led to mass adoption
> rather than niche use. For example, being forestalled in working with
> Nokia -- they were trying to position us as an alternative to Android.
> In large part OLPC kept Sugar Labs at arms length from their
> deployments -- hence we had very little direct contact with our end
> users -- with some exceptions, e.g., Paraguay Educa -- which is still
> active. Our involvement has been maintenance, which I think confirms
> the analysis of James. (I remain convinced that Sugar would be a great
> environment for the platforms like RPi, especially if we
> develop/support some activities that more directly support the Maker
> community.)

Yes, these are missed opportunities in terms of outreach for Sugar.

When Sugar was standing on giants' shoulders (OLPC), outreach was not
the first big issue. And when this giant retired, perhaps it was like
a natural move to look for other "giants" (Nokia, Raspberry, etc.)?

> That said, even though it is a bit long in tooth, I think Sugar is
> still an important expression of many ideas that have yet to find
> their way into the mainstream and can and should be used as a way to
> promote these ideas -- whether or not they are ultimately realized in
> Sugar deployments. The Journal/portfolio, the collaboration model, our
> approach to FOSS -- providing scaffolding to exercise one's freedoms,
> and more.

I agree, and that's the reason why I have been a strong supporter of
Sugarizer since the beginning.  It was not just because I know Lionel
and I knew he would do a wonderful job at developing it (always easy
to say this in retrospect), it is also because I thought it would be
good to have a more generic incarnation of these powerful ideas that
Sugar was promoting in education.

> And some of the Sugar activities are still quite viable and are seeing
> a new life -- either rewritten for Sugarizer or repackaged in Flatpak,
> where they are then available on any GNU/Linux desktop.
>
> Several topics James did not mention:
>
> The bulk of my personal contributions over the past 5-6 years have
> been to Music Blocks, one of the most active Sugar Labs repos. I focus
> there in part because I wanted to have my efforts reach a wider
> audience -- anyone with access to a browser can use it. (Like
> Sugaroizer, it is also available in the Google Play Store, and in
> Flatpak. Ironically, it does not work inside Sugar itself at the
> moment.) But there are several other reasons. Since "you cannot think
> about thinking without thinking about thinking about something", I
> wanted to work on a "microworld" that was about something and I had
> long wanted to scratch a particular itch: music. I seized the
> opportunity when I met Devin Ullibari and it has been a vehicle for
> lots of personal learning. As a stand-alone activity Music Blocks is
> getting a lot of traction -- including wide-spread adoption in Japan
> and Peru. And we have 100+ contributors -- new ones popping up all the
> time. But Devin and I also have another agenda. We think that Music
> Blocks could provide a vehicle for musicians to expand their
> repertoires into programming and hence expand their job prospects --
> most musicians moonlight and why not moonlight teaching music through
> the lens of computation? We've also been developing a body of
> collateral material in support of this goal -- largely in the form of
> lesson plans.

I was not aware that Music Blocks was that active and useful, I will
definitely have a closer look!

> Finally, I still think of Sugar Labs as a place where people can come
> to learn. We've been very active in programs such as Google Summer of
> Code and Google Code-in (alas no more). And while some of the
> participants have stuck around, almost all of them have learned
> something along the way -- about programming, about FOSS, about
> engaging a community, about pedagogy, etc. Supporting Sugar Labs as a
> place of learning motivates me.

I wholeheartedly welcome such an open "conclusion".  As a *place to
learn*, I also think Sugar Labs is doing great, especially with the
steady commitment to the Google Summer of Code / Code-in initiatives.

But is this vision readable for newcomers and potential contributors
on the Sugar Labs website?  The homepage is all about Sugar as a
product, not Sugar Labs as a place and a community.

What about moving the focus away from the 

Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Hi James,

thanks for your answer.

James Cameron  writes:

> I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
> back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
> Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.

Early "contributors" of Sugar were paid by the OLPC fondation.

My guess is that the next wave of contributors was all about changing
the world with audacious educational principles and free software, not
about "developing Sugar".

The next next wave of contributors will not come just for the sake of
a product that looks like legacy.

> No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.

I respectfully disagree.

> Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.

I've been on free software mailing lists for a very long time now, and
I can tell confidently: no amount of terseness will ever be useful in
such conversation, it just sounds like you don't want to have it.

It also sounds like saying "If Sugar Labs dies, it won't be OUR fault,
it will be the fault of.. everyone who did NOT contribute!"

I understand the reasoning, but I don't think it's an effective way of
dealing with the lack of contributors.

I think Sugar Labs is still very needed, maybe more than ever, but I
do believe the focus needs a small switch: not a U-turn, just a slight
change, which I'll describe in another email.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Martin Guy]

On 02/11/2020, Bastien  wrote:
> James Cameron  writes:
>
>> I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
>> back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
>> Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.

> I understand the reasoning, but I don't think it's an effective way of
> dealing with the lack of contributors.

The strategies and manners that help grow the contributor base are
many, though having a clear mission statement is one of them. Other
are listed in the book Producing Open Source Software (readable on
producingoss.com) chapter 8 "Managing volunteers".

Each individual contributor probably has their own different
specialities and areas of interest (and maybe their own mission :) but
the declared objective helps people interact with the org.

On-topic again, the current banner on sugarlabs.org is "Sugar Labs
contributes to and helps maintain the award-winning Sugar Learning
Platform" which I'm 100% in line with, maybe with "and promoting the
adoption/diffusion/use of".

M

M
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Hi Charlie,

C. Cossé  writes:

> Yes, I'm familiar, but I was talking in the context of ways to help
> Sugar/Sugarizer platforms, not for me personally.  I just used myself
> as an example.  Where there is one, there are usually more ...

One possible way is for Sugar Labs to join https://opencollective.com,
call for sponsors and start a conversation on how to "spend" the money.

But I would not recommend going into that direction blindly, it surely
requires a lot of work to do it well, in terms of governance.

If you are interested in Open Source sustainability issues, there is
https://sustainoss.org and also a list of articles I maintain here:

https://bzg.github.io/opensource-challenges/

As you can see, this is quite a complex issue, I doubt any simple
solution can do.

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 Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[C . Cossé]

Hi Christoph,

Yes, I'm familiar, but I was talking in the context of ways to help
Sugar/Sugarizer platforms, not for me personally.  I just used myself as an
example.  Where there is one, there are usually more ...

Cheers,
-Charlie

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 1:42 PM Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch <
christoph.derndor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Charlie,
>
> have you looked at Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/)? I've supported two
> or three open source developers via it over the years and am finding it a
> low-friction way to do that via exactly the kind of monthly
> subscriptions/donations that you mention.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:25 PM C. Cossé  wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I would like to mention that there are probably other people, besides
>> myself, who would love to develop their ideas for education software, if
>> only there were some way to get paid.  I used to make free education
>> software back when I had kids and could afford the time.  I personally
>> still have a list of un-implemented ideas for education software which I'd
>> love to work on, but the factor that makes it possible is missing, ie
>> money.  It wouldn't necessarily be too difficult to modify the Sugar (and
>> Sugarizer) eco-systems to promote compensation of developers.  For example:
>> someone likes a project and wants to encourage further development by
>> "putting $500 on it".  Or, since that might not happen very often, then
>> convert into a "subscription" system in which subscription fees are used to
>> compensate developers, perhaps allowing the subscriber choose which
>> projects to support.  If there are people who want to develop and other
>> people who want to support such work, then it could be successful.
>>
>> Just sayin' :)
>>
>> -Charlie Cosse
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:47 AM Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch <
>> christoph.derndor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> a quick thought experiment from another old-timer and long-term lurker
>>> here:
>>>
>>> James, I think one might also turn your assessment on its head:
>>>
>>> "The *low number of contributors* to Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer,
>>> and Music Blocks is *due to the focus that we have, and it's unclear*. The
>>> relatively *small amount of continued contributions* alone will *not
>>> have any real effect on that*.
>>>
>>> Sugar Labs contributors *will arrive and thrive* if there is a *clear
>>> Sugar Labs focus*."
>>>
>>> Just my 2 euro cents,
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:53 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>>>
 I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
 back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
 Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.
 No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.

 Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.

 On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 11:40:58PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
 > Thanks James.
 >
 > So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
 > developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
 > does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
 > Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
 > in France.
 >
 > I hope this does sound approximatively correct.
 >
 > Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
 > education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
 > a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
 > core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
 > today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.
 >
 > I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.
 >
 > What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
 > to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?
 >
 > What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?
 >
 > The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
 > should use free software.  But building free educational software is
 > something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
 > ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
 > may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.
 >
 > How to help these people?
 >
 > You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
 > back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
 > don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
 > may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
 > core principles and the people themselves.
 >
 > Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
 > back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, 

Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch]

Hi Charlie,

have you looked at Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/)? I've supported two
or three open source developers via it over the years and am finding it a
low-friction way to do that via exactly the kind of monthly
subscriptions/donations that you mention.

Cheers,
Christoph

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:25 PM C. Cossé  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I would like to mention that there are probably other people, besides
> myself, who would love to develop their ideas for education software, if
> only there were some way to get paid.  I used to make free education
> software back when I had kids and could afford the time.  I personally
> still have a list of un-implemented ideas for education software which I'd
> love to work on, but the factor that makes it possible is missing, ie
> money.  It wouldn't necessarily be too difficult to modify the Sugar (and
> Sugarizer) eco-systems to promote compensation of developers.  For example:
> someone likes a project and wants to encourage further development by
> "putting $500 on it".  Or, since that might not happen very often, then
> convert into a "subscription" system in which subscription fees are used to
> compensate developers, perhaps allowing the subscriber choose which
> projects to support.  If there are people who want to develop and other
> people who want to support such work, then it could be successful.
>
> Just sayin' :)
>
> -Charlie Cosse
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:47 AM Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch <
> christoph.derndor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> a quick thought experiment from another old-timer and long-term lurker
>> here:
>>
>> James, I think one might also turn your assessment on its head:
>>
>> "The *low number of contributors* to Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer,
>> and Music Blocks is *due to the focus that we have, and it's unclear*. The
>> relatively *small amount of continued contributions* alone will *not
>> have any real effect on that*.
>>
>> Sugar Labs contributors *will arrive and thrive* if there is a *clear
>> Sugar Labs focus*."
>>
>> Just my 2 euro cents,
>> Christoph
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:53 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
>>> back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
>>> Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.
>>> No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.
>>>
>>> Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 11:40:58PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
>>> > Thanks James.
>>> >
>>> > So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
>>> > developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
>>> > does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
>>> > Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
>>> > in France.
>>> >
>>> > I hope this does sound approximatively correct.
>>> >
>>> > Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
>>> > education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
>>> > a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
>>> > core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
>>> > today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.
>>> >
>>> > I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.
>>> >
>>> > What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
>>> > to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?
>>> >
>>> > What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?
>>> >
>>> > The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
>>> > should use free software.  But building free educational software is
>>> > something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
>>> > ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
>>> > may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.
>>> >
>>> > How to help these people?
>>> >
>>> > You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
>>> > back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
>>> > don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
>>> > may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
>>> > core principles and the people themselves.
>>> >
>>> > Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
>>> > back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, what
>>> > would they propose?  Could Sugar Labs host these new ideas?
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> >  Bastien
>>> > ___
>>> > Sugar-devel mailing list
>>> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>
>>> --
>>> James Cameron
>>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
>>> ___
>>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org

Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[C . Cossé]

Hello all,

I would like to mention that there are probably other people, besides
myself, who would love to develop their ideas for education software, if
only there were some way to get paid.  I used to make free education
software back when I had kids and could afford the time.  I personally
still have a list of un-implemented ideas for education software which I'd
love to work on, but the factor that makes it possible is missing, ie
money.  It wouldn't necessarily be too difficult to modify the Sugar (and
Sugarizer) eco-systems to promote compensation of developers.  For example:
someone likes a project and wants to encourage further development by
"putting $500 on it".  Or, since that might not happen very often, then
convert into a "subscription" system in which subscription fees are used to
compensate developers, perhaps allowing the subscriber choose which
projects to support.  If there are people who want to develop and other
people who want to support such work, then it could be successful.

Just sayin' :)

-Charlie Cosse


On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:47 AM Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch <
christoph.derndor...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> a quick thought experiment from another old-timer and long-term lurker
> here:
>
> James, I think one might also turn your assessment on its head:
>
> "The *low number of contributors* to Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer,
> and Music Blocks is *due to the focus that we have, and it's unclear*. The
> relatively *small amount of continued contributions* alone will *not have
> any real effect on that*.
>
> Sugar Labs contributors *will arrive and thrive* if there is a *clear
> Sugar Labs focus*."
>
> Just my 2 euro cents,
> Christoph
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:53 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
>> back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
>> Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.
>> No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.
>>
>> Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 11:40:58PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
>> > Thanks James.
>> >
>> > So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
>> > developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
>> > does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
>> > Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
>> > in France.
>> >
>> > I hope this does sound approximatively correct.
>> >
>> > Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
>> > education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
>> > a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
>> > core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
>> > today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.
>> >
>> > I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.
>> >
>> > What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
>> > to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?
>> >
>> > What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?
>> >
>> > The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
>> > should use free software.  But building free educational software is
>> > something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
>> > ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
>> > may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.
>> >
>> > How to help these people?
>> >
>> > You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
>> > back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
>> > don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
>> > may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
>> > core principles and the people themselves.
>> >
>> > Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
>> > back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, what
>> > would they propose?  Could Sugar Labs host these new ideas?
>> >
>> > --
>> >  Bastien
>> > ___
>> > Sugar-devel mailing list
>> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>> --
>> James Cameron
>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
>> ___
>> Sugar-devel mailing list
>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
>
> --
> Christoph Derndorfer
>
> volunteer, OLPC (Austria) / co-founder, TechnikBasteln® [
> www.technikbasteln.net]
>
> e-mail: christ...@derndorfer.eu
>
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>


-- 

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Walter Bender]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 4:57 AM Bastien  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I hope you're all doing well, in every corner of the world.

Nice to hear from you. It has been much too long. Hope you are well.
>
> After participating to a survey called "State of Emacs", and thinking
> about the various "State of X" that you can find in the software world
> (State of Clojure, State of the Octoverse, etc.), I was wondering if
> you would find it useful to launch a "State of Sugar".

I am still an Emacs user. Would be completely lost without it.

>
> The survey would target users and contributors and the results could
> help the community better know itself -- and the casual reader better
> understand how Sugar works in general.
>
> I find myself in this position of "casual reader" about Sugar today,
> and I have a few naive questions for which I don't have answers when
> browsing the website and the docs:

I think that for the most part James has already answered these
questions, so I will jump right into my personal reflections below.
>
> - Is Sugar still actively *developed* or just maintained?
>
> - If the former, is there a roadmap somewhere?
>
> - Does Sugar have a "maintainer" or a group of maintainers?
>
> - Who gets paid for doing what in the Sugar community?
>
> - How large is the Sugar contributors community?
>
> - What are the interaction between Sugar Labs and Sugarizer?
>
> - Is the Sugar Labs community still supporting OLPC deployments?
>
> - Is the Sugar Labs community supporting new "deployments" in new
>   countries?
>
> ...
>
> That's what comes on the top of my head right now.
>
> Maybe I'll get some answers for these questions by just asking them on
> this list, but a State of Sugar could answer other questions of course.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
>  Bastien
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

I remain passionate about Sugar, but we missed some important
opportunities over the years that would have led to mass adoption
rather than niche use. For example, being forestalled in working with
Nokia -- they were trying to position us as an alternative to Android.
In large part OLPC kept Sugar Labs at arms length from their
deployments -- hence we had very little direct contact with our end
users -- with some exceptions, e.g., Paraguay Educa -- which is still
active. Our involvement has been maintenance, which I think confirms
the analysis of James. (I remain convinced that Sugar would be a great
environment for the platforms like RPi, especially if we
develop/support some activities that more directly support the Maker
community.)

That said, even though it is a bit long in tooth, I think Sugar is
still an important expression of many ideas that have yet to find
their way into the mainstream and can and should be used as a way to
promote these ideas -- whether or not they are ultimately realized in
Sugar deployments. The Journal/portfolio, the collaboration model, our
approach to FOSS -- providing scaffolding to exercise one's freedoms,
and more.

And some of the Sugar activities are still quite viable and are seeing
a new life -- either rewritten for Sugarizer or repackaged in Flatpak,
where they are then available on any GNU/Linux desktop.

Several topics James did not mention:

The bulk of my personal contributions over the past 5-6 years have
been to Music Blocks, one of the most active Sugar Labs repos. I focus
there in part because I wanted to have my efforts reach a wider
audience -- anyone with access to a browser can use it. (Like
Sugaroizer, it is also available in the Google Play Store, and in
Flatpak. Ironically, it does not work inside Sugar itself at the
moment.) But there are several other reasons. Since "you cannot think
about thinking without thinking about thinking about something", I
wanted to work on a "microworld" that was about something and I had
long wanted to scratch a particular itch: music. I seized the
opportunity when I met Devin Ullibari and it has been a vehicle for
lots of personal learning. As a stand-alone activity Music Blocks is
getting a lot of traction -- including wide-spread adoption in Japan
and Peru. And we have 100+ contributors -- new ones popping up all the
time. But Devin and I also have another agenda. We think that Music
Blocks could provide a vehicle for musicians to expand their
repertoires into programming and hence expand their job prospects --
most musicians moonlight and why not moonlight teaching music through
the lens of computation? We've also been developing a body of
collateral material in support of this goal -- largely in the form of
lesson plans.

Finally, I still think of Sugar Labs as a place where people can come
to learn. We've been very active in programs such as Google Summer of
Code and Google Code-in (alas no more). And while some of the
participants have stuck around, almost all of them have learned
something along the 

Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Christoph Derndorfer-Medosch]

Hi all,

a quick thought experiment from another old-timer and long-term lurker here:

James, I think one might also turn your assessment on its head:

"The *low number of contributors* to Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer,
and Music Blocks is *due to the focus that we have, and it's unclear*. The
relatively *small amount of continued contributions* alone will *not have
any real effect on that*.

Sugar Labs contributors *will arrive and thrive* if there is a *clear Sugar
Labs focus*."

Just my 2 euro cents,
Christoph

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 8:53 AM James Cameron  wrote:

> I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
> back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
> Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.
> No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.
>
> Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 11:40:58PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
> > Thanks James.
> >
> > So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
> > developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
> > does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
> > Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
> > in France.
> >
> > I hope this does sound approximatively correct.
> >
> > Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
> > education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
> > a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
> > core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
> > today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.
> >
> > I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.
> >
> > What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
> > to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?
> >
> > What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?
> >
> > The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
> > should use free software.  But building free educational software is
> > something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
> > ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
> > may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.
> >
> > How to help these people?
> >
> > You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
> > back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
> > don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
> > may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
> > core principles and the people themselves.
> >
> > Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
> > back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, what
> > would they propose?  Could Sugar Labs host these new ideas?
> >
> > --
> >  Bastien
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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>


-- 
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volunteer, OLPC (Austria) / co-founder, TechnikBasteln® [
www.technikbasteln.net]

e-mail: christ...@derndorfer.eu
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[James Cameron]

I disagree that the focus has shifted or that it should be shifted
back to what it was.  The state of Sugar Labs, Sugar, Sugarizer, and
Music Blocks is due to the contributors we have, and they are too few.
No amount of refocusing will have any real effect on that.

Sugar Labs will thrive if there are contributors.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 11:40:58PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
> Thanks James.
> 
> So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
> developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
> does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
> Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
> in France.
> 
> I hope this does sound approximatively correct.
> 
> Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
> education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
> a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
> core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
> today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.
> 
> I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.
> 
> What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
> to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?
> 
> What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?
> 
> The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
> should use free software.  But building free educational software is
> something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
> ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
> may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.  
> 
> How to help these people?
> 
> You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
> back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
> don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
> may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
> core principles and the people themselves.
> 
> Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
> back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, what
> would they propose?  Could Sugar Labs host these new ideas?
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Thanks James.

So Sugar is maintained by a handful of people but it is not actively
developed anymore.  Sugar Labs puts some efforts in maintaining it but
does not really know who is still using it.  Sugar Labs also hosts the
Sugarizer project, which is well alive and reaching children at least
in France.

I hope this does sound approximatively correct.

Sugar Labs was all about provoking a change in the way we experience
education (learning and teaching) through the development of Sugar, as
a flagship for such a change.  This flagship was designed around a few
core principles and powerful ideas that are still alive and relevant
today: namely focus, reflection and collaboration.

I think we all agree these core principles will survive the software.

What if Sugar Labs focus was not to promote Sugar (which is dying) but
to help build a network of contributors around these core principles?

What if we insist on the "Labs" more than on the "Sugar"?

The Free Software Foundation is saying over and over that children
should use free software.  But building free educational software is
something very few people are interested in doing seriously, and the
ones willing to do it by following the aforementioned core principles
may not want to rely on Sugar or Sugarizer.  

How to help these people?

You know my love for this project and my commitment to helping OLPC
back in the times, Sugar Labs community and Sugarizer today.  But I
don't feel the pulse of the Sugar community anymore, and I think that
may be because the focus is back on the software, rather than on the
core principles and the people themselves.

Stated otherwise: if Alan K., Seymour P., Cynthia S. and Walter were
back again in the same room to discuss the future of education, what
would they propose?  Could Sugar Labs host these new ideas?

-- 
 Bastien
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[James Cameron]

Thanks for asking.  My reply in context below.

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 09:57:27AM +0100, Bastien wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I hope you're all doing well, in every corner of the world.
> 
> After participating to a survey called "State of Emacs", and thinking
> about the various "State of X" that you can find in the software world
> (State of Clojure, State of the Octoverse, etc.), I was wondering if
> you would find it useful to launch a "State of Sugar".
> 
> The survey would target users and contributors and the results could
> help the community better know itself -- and the casual reader better
> understand how Sugar works in general.
> 
> I find myself in this position of "casual reader" about Sugar today,
> and I have a few naive questions for which I don't have answers when
> browsing the website and the docs:
> 
> - Is Sugar still actively *developed* or just maintained?

Just maintained.  Because (a) too few contributors, and (b)
contributors we do have are yet to agree to contribute development in
concert.  Each are doing their own thing.  We have no clear model for
organised collaboration.

As consequence, tasks that are larger than one person are being
delayed or given in hope to Google Summer of Code students.

> - If the former, is there a roadmap somewhere?

No roadmap.

> - Does Sugar have a "maintainer" or a group of maintainers?

I'm release manager for Sugar Labs, which at the moment means I'm the
maintainer of Sugar and a small set of activities only.

We have contributors to activities.

> - Who gets paid for doing what in the Sugar community?

Sugar Labs has recently paid Ibiam for work on activities, and lawyers
and accountants for internal organisational things as part of the
departure from the Software Freedom Conservancy.

> - How large is the Sugar contributors community?

We have a membership list but the size of the list is not
representative of the contributors.  Contributors are not required to
be members.  Members are not required to be contributors.  We have no
process to measure the size of the contributor list or the hours
spent.  My guess is we have about four on Sugar.  I can't speak for
Music Blocks and Sugarizer.

> - What are the interaction between Sugar Labs and Sugarizer?

Sugarizer is a project of Sugar Labs.  Technical direction is by
Lionel.  Some members of Sugar Labs are contributors to Sugarizer.  I
don't know how many.

> - Is the Sugar Labs community still supporting OLPC deployments?

I don't think so.

> - Is the Sugar Labs community supporting new "deployments" in new
>   countries?

I don't think so.

> That's what comes on the top of my head right now.
> 
> Maybe I'll get some answers for these questions by just asking them on
> this list, but a State of Sugar could answer other questions of course.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien 

-- 
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http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Martin Guy]

On 29/10/2020, Bastien  wrote:
> "State of Sugar".

Absolutely. I'll let better-informed people answer the Q's.

For myself, I surveyed the various forms of bootable Sugar distros and
would be happy to post the results.

   M
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[Sugar-devel] State of Sugar?

[Bastien]

Dear all,

I hope you're all doing well, in every corner of the world.

After participating to a survey called "State of Emacs", and thinking
about the various "State of X" that you can find in the software world
(State of Clojure, State of the Octoverse, etc.), I was wondering if
you would find it useful to launch a "State of Sugar".

The survey would target users and contributors and the results could
help the community better know itself -- and the casual reader better
understand how Sugar works in general.

I find myself in this position of "casual reader" about Sugar today,
and I have a few naive questions for which I don't have answers when
browsing the website and the docs:

- Is Sugar still actively *developed* or just maintained?

- If the former, is there a roadmap somewhere?

- Does Sugar have a "maintainer" or a group of maintainers?

- Who gets paid for doing what in the Sugar community?

- How large is the Sugar contributors community?

- What are the interaction between Sugar Labs and Sugarizer?

- Is the Sugar Labs community still supporting OLPC deployments?

- Is the Sugar Labs community supporting new "deployments" in new
  countries?

... 

That's what comes on the top of my head right now.

Maybe I'll get some answers for these questions by just asking them on
this list, but a State of Sugar could answer other questions of course.

Thanks,

-- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar

[Bastien]

Hi Tony,

Tony Anderson  writes:

> Attached is a spreadsheet which shows the current status (subject to
> clerical error).

Ouch.  I see a lot of "MII" (missing in inaction?) in this list.

Thanks a lot!

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Bastien


Attached is a spreadsheet which shows the current status (subject to 
clerical error).


Tony


On Tuesday, 22 May, 2018 01:08 PM, Bastien wrote:

Hi James and all,

let me deliberately sidetrack the issue at stake with a larger issue
which I'm curious about: what is the current activity status of Sugar?

Since I've been unsubscribed from the list a few years ago (because my
@laptop.org alias somehow died), I've missed a lot.  I'm aware of GSoC
projects and of Sugarizer, but I would love to get an overview of all
Sugar development...

James Cameron  writes:


Yes, perhaps that's what I'll do once the commit rate
by others falls below 10% of mine.

... the sentence above woke me up: does it means that your commit
activity is more than 9x the activity of *all* other contributors?

That would not be completely surprising (or insane or unhealthy) since
Sugar is a free software and most free softwares I know are led by the
(heroic) effort of a single individual.

But I may misunderstand your statement.

So let me try a few questions:

- What part(s) of Sugar (including activities) is mostly active?

- Who is using/testing those active parts?

- Who is contributing to Sugar code (including activities)?

- Who is supporting Sugar development (including Google through the
   GSoC)?  Is the OLPC association still somehow involved?

Sorry if those questions sound naive, I'm just trying to catch up
and understand better the ecosystem at large.

Thanks!





aslo.inventory_working.ods
Description: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.spreadsheet
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar

[Bastien]

James Cameron  writes:

>> Oh, nice.  Thanks for proposing.  b...@altern.org is dead indeed.
>> Can you point b...@laptop.org to b...@bzg.fr ?
>
> Done.

Thanks a lot.

>> Okay.  Does it mean that most activities on a.l.s.o are not actively
>> maintained?  Because they just work?
>
> No, they mostly no longer work because libraries they depend on are no
> longer available.

Okay.

>> So who is Sugar currently developed for?
>
> I've no clear answer to that.

Okay.  I guess that's a question we should keep in mind.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar

[James Cameron]

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 07:46:22AM +0200, Bastien wrote:
> Thanks for the quick feedback!
> 
> James Cameron  writes:
> 
> > I've just checked a mail server; we still have an alias b...@laptop.org
> > pointing at b...@altern.org.  Let me know if you don't need it.
> 
> Oh, nice.  Thanks for proposing.  b...@altern.org is dead indeed.
> Can you point b...@laptop.org to b...@bzg.fr ?

Done.

> >> - What part(s) of Sugar (including activities) is mostly active?
> >
> > Over the past year, Sugarizer, Music Blocks, and the core activities.
> 
> Okay.  Does it mean that most activities on a.l.s.o are not actively
> maintained?  Because they just work?

No, they mostly no longer work because libraries they depend on are no
longer available.

> >> - Who is using/testing those active parts?
> >
> > Lionel, Walter, Devin, myself, and a few others.  No feedback from
> > schools apart from a study in Madagascar.
> 
> So who is Sugar currently developed for?

I've no clear answer to that.

> >> - Who is supporting Sugar development (including Google through the
> >>   GSoC)?  Is the OLPC association still somehow involved?
> >
> > Sugar Labs, SFC, Google, and One Laptop per Child (OLPC, Inc).
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien

-- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar

[Bastien]

Thanks for the quick feedback!

James Cameron  writes:

> I've just checked a mail server; we still have an alias b...@laptop.org
> pointing at b...@altern.org.  Let me know if you don't need it.

Oh, nice.  Thanks for proposing.  b...@altern.org is dead indeed.
Can you point b...@laptop.org to b...@bzg.fr ?

>> - What part(s) of Sugar (including activities) is mostly active?
>
> Over the past year, Sugarizer, Music Blocks, and the core activities.

Okay.  Does it mean that most activities on a.l.s.o are not actively
maintained?  Because they just work?

>> - Who is using/testing those active parts?
>
> Lionel, Walter, Devin, myself, and a few others.  No feedback from
> schools apart from a study in Madagascar.

So who is Sugar currently developed for?

>> - Who is supporting Sugar development (including Google through the
>>   GSoC)?  Is the OLPC association still somehow involved?
>
> Sugar Labs, SFC, Google, and One Laptop per Child (OLPC, Inc).

Thanks.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] State of Sugar (was: [sugarlabs/ajedrez-activity] Adding A Suitable License (#1))

[James Cameron]

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 07:08:43AM +0200, Bastien wrote:
> Hi James and all,
> 
> let me deliberately sidetrack the issue at stake with a larger issue
> which I'm curious about: what is the current activity status of Sugar?
> 
> Since I've been unsubscribed from the list a few years ago (because my
> @laptop.org alias somehow died), I've missed a lot.  I'm aware of GSoC
> projects and of Sugarizer, but I would love to get an overview of all
> Sugar development...

I've just checked a mail server; we still have an alias b...@laptop.org
pointing at b...@altern.org.  Let me know if you don't need it.

> James Cameron  writes:
> 
> > Yes, perhaps that's what I'll do once the commit rate
> > by others falls below 10% of mine.
> 
> ... the sentence above woke me up: does it means that your commit
> activity is more than 9x the activity of *all* other contributors?

No.  Walter, Devin, Lionel and some others are heavy contributors at
the moment.

> That would not be completely surprising (or insane or unhealthy) since
> Sugar is a free software and most free softwares I know are led by the
> (heroic) effort of a single individual.
> 
> But I may misunderstand your statement.
> 
> So let me try a few questions:
> 
> - What part(s) of Sugar (including activities) is mostly active?

Over the past year, Sugarizer, Music Blocks, and the core activities.

> - Who is using/testing those active parts?

Lionel, Walter, Devin, myself, and a few others.  No feedback from
schools apart from a study in Madagascar.

> - Who is contributing to Sugar code (including activities)?

As above.

> - Who is supporting Sugar development (including Google through the
>   GSoC)?  Is the OLPC association still somehow involved?

Sugar Labs, SFC, Google, and One Laptop per Child (OLPC, Inc).

Yes.

> Sorry if those questions sound naive, I'm just trying to catch up
> and understand better the ecosystem at large.

No worries.  Good questions.

> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien

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[Sugar-devel] State of Sugar (was: [sugarlabs/ajedrez-activity] Adding A Suitable License (#1))

[Bastien]

Hi James and all,

let me deliberately sidetrack the issue at stake with a larger issue
which I'm curious about: what is the current activity status of Sugar?

Since I've been unsubscribed from the list a few years ago (because my
@laptop.org alias somehow died), I've missed a lot.  I'm aware of GSoC
projects and of Sugarizer, but I would love to get an overview of all
Sugar development...

James Cameron  writes:

> Yes, perhaps that's what I'll do once the commit rate
> by others falls below 10% of mine.

... the sentence above woke me up: does it means that your commit
activity is more than 9x the activity of *all* other contributors?

That would not be completely surprising (or insane or unhealthy) since
Sugar is a free software and most free softwares I know are led by the
(heroic) effort of a single individual.

But I may misunderstand your statement.

So let me try a few questions:

- What part(s) of Sugar (including activities) is mostly active?

- Who is using/testing those active parts?

- Who is contributing to Sugar code (including activities)?

- Who is supporting Sugar development (including Google through the
  GSoC)?  Is the OLPC association still somehow involved?

Sorry if those questions sound naive, I'm just trying to catch up
and understand better the ecosystem at large.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien
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