RE: Bird shapes in gnomons
Hi Gino, Your Bird of Time dial is gorgeous. Thanks for sharing it. Sara From: GINO SCHIAVONE Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 2:48 PM To: Schechner, Sara ; Steve Lelievre ; john.davi...@btopenworld.com Cc: Sundial List Subject: Re: Bird shapes in gnomons Greetings all, I have enjoyed the exchanges and information. I go with whimsy. The first time I saw an image of a Butterfield dial I was struck with both a sense of whimsy and the desire to make sundials. I would like to share pictures of my Butterfield-ish dial with a griffin index and my "Bird of Time" dial. Thank you for your contributions. Gino Schiavone Taos, NM Gino Schiavone The Schiavone Studio 1337 Gusdorf Road, Ste J Taos, NM 87571 575-758-7797 575-613-0943 From: sundial mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de>> on behalf of Schechner, Sara mailto:sche...@fas.harvard.edu>> Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 8:49 AM To: Steve Lelievre; john.davi...@btopenworld.com<mailto:john.davi...@btopenworld.com> Cc: Sundial List Subject: RE: Bird shapes in gnomons Hi Steve (and John), Dolphin supporters and decorations on sundials and scientific instruments is very common in the France, 16th-18th century. It was a cultural symbol reinforced by the crown prince being the Dauphin. I believe fish and dolphin supporters on English dials is much more modern. I don't know what you mean about wedges below the gnomon on the Virginia Metalcrafters' cast metal dials. Most of the mass produced garden dials I have seen were "one size fits all"-This meant that they rarely worked because hour lines and gnomon angles were not correct for the latitudes in which they were set up. I would not speculate that there was any mix or match; real evidence is needed. My impression of these firms is that they were marketing what was alleged to be a Victorian style-complete with the winged sandglass and Robert Browning quotation. All rather hokey. The use of a phoenix might be less to do with the Sun than the idea of renewal and rebirth, day following night, and the cycles of time. Cheers, Sara From: Steve Lelievre mailto:steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:54 PM To: Schechner, Sara mailto:sche...@fas.harvard.edu>>; john.davi...@btopenworld.com<mailto:john.davi...@btopenworld.com> Cc: Sundial List mailto:sundial@uni-koeln.de>> Subject: Re: Bird shapes in gnomons Hi Sara and John, Thanks for your replies. It's interesting to be able to trace the bird motif to Butterfield's time. It just leaves me wondering why he chose to use a bird. Absent any other explanation, I'll assume it was whimsy. Sara, because the URL you mentioned is a link to your CHSI website, clicking through reminded me of my visit during the NASS conference a few years back. I don't specifically remember the Butterfield dials in your collection, but I think that's maybe because I was so mesmerized by all the amazing, exquisite ivory diptychs that everything else pales in my memory. The photos of the Butterfields look pretty good too, though. John, your comment that English dials tending to use fish or dolphins as supporters got me wondering if the use of birds is more of a North American thing, so I did a bit of Googling about that. There's a bit of a story It seems that mass production of cast iron and later cast bronze horizontal sundials in North America started in the late 19th or early 20th C. Over the subsequent century, there seem to have been at least two companies that did well and that had gnomon designs featuring birds. I think this probably explains, in part, why I have encountered so many dials with this attribute. One company, the W.J. Loth Stove company of Waynesboro, Virginia, was set up in 1890. They started out making stoves and cast kitchenware, and apparently were the original owners of the Hotpoint brand of home appliances. By the late 1930s they were using the brand name Virginia Metalcrafters, which later became the company name, for an assortment of decorative home goods including sundials. They ceased trading in 2006. The other company is Rome Industries of Peoria, Illinois, founded in 1964 and still operating. Their range of sundials are generally remarkably similar to the Virginia Metalcrafters line. In fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that some models are copies of the other company's products. Compare Virginia Metalcrafters' https://tinyurl.com/yd6qsqk4<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tinyurl.com_yd6qsqk4=DwMDaQ=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ=7ZsgDX5inZSMERqhZEQacOtdADP0iy6-YB7dx6Z_mVo=uAca4uFHQN1XV5F2dJjmoHKymGItBuk589Fn82zCrIo=vcv7sNZotUdmsusnpUylTHamXxzcLC99RbH2DAWODb8=> and Rome's https://tinyurl.com/y75dorrk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tinyurl.com_y75dorrk=Dw
RE: Bird shapes in gnomons
Good points. From: Steve Lelievre Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2018 1:26 PM To: Schechner, Sara ; john.davi...@btopenworld.com Cc: Sundial List Subject: Re: Bird shapes in gnomons On 2018-11-01 7:49 a.m., Schechner, Sara wrote: I would not speculate that there was any mix or match; real evidence is needed. Yes, I agree that evidence is needed. I have seen the same gnomon casting used for different dial faces, and the same dial face with different gnomons. I supposed it could be from allowing customers to mix-and-match (or even the manufacturer treating parts as swappable), but on reflection I realize it is equally as likely to happening in the second-hand market as vendors discard broken or corroded parts and reassemble 'complete' dials from what's left. Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Bird shapes in gnomons
On 2018-11-01 7:49 a.m., Schechner, Sara wrote: I would not speculate that there was any mix or match; real evidence is needed. Yes, I agree that evidence is needed. I have seen the same gnomon casting used for different dial faces, and the same dial face with different gnomons. I supposed it could be from allowing customers to mix-and-match (or even the manufacturer treating parts as swappable), but on reflection I realize it is equally as likely to happening in the second-hand market as vendors discard broken or corroded parts and reassemble 'complete' dials from what's left. Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Bird shapes in gnomons
Hi Steve (and John), Dolphin supporters and decorations on sundials and scientific instruments is very common in the France, 16th—18th century. It was a cultural symbol reinforced by the crown prince being the Dauphin. I believe fish and dolphin supporters on English dials is much more modern. I don’t know what you mean about wedges below the gnomon on the Virginia Metalcrafters’ cast metal dials. Most of the mass produced garden dials I have seen were “one size fits all”—This meant that they rarely worked because hour lines and gnomon angles were not correct for the latitudes in which they were set up. I would not speculate that there was any mix or match; real evidence is needed. My impression of these firms is that they were marketing what was alleged to be a Victorian style–complete with the winged sandglass and Robert Browning quotation. All rather hokey. The use of a phoenix might be less to do with the Sun than the idea of renewal and rebirth, day following night, and the cycles of time. Cheers, Sara From: Steve Lelievre Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2018 11:54 PM To: Schechner, Sara ; john.davi...@btopenworld.com Cc: Sundial List Subject: Re: Bird shapes in gnomons Hi Sara and John, Thanks for your replies. It's interesting to be able to trace the bird motif to Butterfield's time. It just leaves me wondering why he chose to use a bird. Absent any other explanation, I'll assume it was whimsy. Sara, because the URL you mentioned is a link to your CHSI website, clicking through reminded me of my visit during the NASS conference a few years back. I don't specifically remember the Butterfield dials in your collection, but I think that's maybe because I was so mesmerized by all the amazing, exquisite ivory diptychs that everything else pales in my memory. The photos of the Butterfields look pretty good too, though. John, your comment that English dials tending to use fish or dolphins as supporters got me wondering if the use of birds is more of a North American thing, so I did a bit of Googling about that. There's a bit of a story It seems that mass production of cast iron and later cast bronze horizontal sundials in North America started in the late 19th or early 20th C. Over the subsequent century, there seem to have been at least two companies that did well and that had gnomon designs featuring birds. I think this probably explains, in part, why I have encountered so many dials with this attribute. One company, the W.J. Loth Stove company of Waynesboro, Virginia, was set up in 1890. They started out making stoves and cast kitchenware, and apparently were the original owners of the Hotpoint brand of home appliances. By the late 1930s they were using the brand name Virginia Metalcrafters, which later became the company name, for an assortment of decorative home goods including sundials. They ceased trading in 2006. The other company is Rome Industries of Peoria, Illinois, founded in 1964 and still operating. Their range of sundials are generally remarkably similar to the Virginia Metalcrafters line. In fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that some models are copies of the other company's products. Compare Virginia Metalcrafters' https://tinyurl.com/yd6qsqk4<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tinyurl.com_yd6qsqk4=DwMDaQ=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ=7ZsgDX5inZSMERqhZEQacOtdADP0iy6-YB7dx6Z_mVo=uAca4uFHQN1XV5F2dJjmoHKymGItBuk589Fn82zCrIo=vcv7sNZotUdmsusnpUylTHamXxzcLC99RbH2DAWODb8=> and Rome's https://tinyurl.com/y75dorrk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tinyurl.com_y75dorrk=DwMDaQ=WO-RGvefibhHBZq3fL85hQ=7ZsgDX5inZSMERqhZEQacOtdADP0iy6-YB7dx6Z_mVo=uAca4uFHQN1XV5F2dJjmoHKymGItBuk589Fn82zCrIo=EyBS9RoKSvRFW12WA8_SGs9C0xtcYqMGq273k_vhwPk=> . If they aren't copies, could it be that both are modeled after the same earlier design - I wonder. Both companies seem to have had a small choice of dial faces, mottos (basically the same wordings available from both companies), and gnomons (including the bird device) so my guess is that customers could mix and match. Both have winged hourglasses as dial furniture (referring to "time flies"). At least Virginia Metalcrafters had wedges at the bottom of the gnomon, which I guess allowed for milling to the appropriate angle - in which case I imagine that each of the the stock dial faces would have needed a few latitude variants too. By around 1950 Virginia Metalcrafters had some kind of arrangement with the US National Parks Service to make reproduction dials for US National Historic Sites. After closing down, their factory was designated as a Historic District. Long story short, because of these two companies, there are quite a lot of sundials dotted around North America, including some at much-visited National Historic Sites, with bird gnomons. There are even several on eBay at the present time. None of this explains why they chose b
Re: Bird shapes in gnomons
Hi Sara and John, Thanks for your replies. It's interesting to be able to trace the bird motif to Butterfield's time. It just leaves me wondering why he chose to use a bird. Absent any other explanation, I'll assume it was whimsy. Sara, because the URL you mentioned is a link to your CHSI website, clicking through reminded me of my visit during the NASS conference a few years back. I don't specifically remember the Butterfield dials in your collection, but I think that's maybe because I was so mesmerized by all the amazing, exquisite ivory diptychs that everything else pales in my memory. The photos of the Butterfields look pretty good too, though. John, your comment that English dials tending to use fish or dolphins as supporters got me wondering if the use of birds is more of a North American thing, so I did a bit of Googling about that. There's a bit of a story It seems that mass production of cast iron and later cast bronze horizontal sundials in North America started in the late 19th or early 20th C. Over the subsequent century, there seem to have been at least two companies that did well and that had gnomon designs featuring birds. I think this probably explains, in part, why I have encountered so many dials with this attribute. One company, the W.J. Loth Stove company of Waynesboro, Virginia, was set up in 1890. They started out making stoves and cast kitchenware, and apparently were the original owners of the Hotpoint brand of home appliances. By the late 1930s they were using the brand name Virginia Metalcrafters, which later became the company name, for an assortment of decorative home goods including sundials. They ceased trading in 2006. The other company is Rome Industries of Peoria, Illinois, founded in 1964 and still operating. Their range of sundials are generally remarkably similar to the Virginia Metalcrafters line. In fact, one could be forgiven for thinking that some models are copies of the other company's products. Compare Virginia Metalcrafters' https://tinyurl.com/yd6qsqk4 and Rome's https://tinyurl.com/y75dorrk . If they aren't copies, could it be that both are modeled after the same earlier design - I wonder. Both companies seem to have had a small choice of dial faces, mottos (basically the same wordings available from both companies), and gnomons (including the bird device) so my guess is that customers could mix and match. Both have winged hourglasses as dial furniture (referring to "time flies"). At least Virginia Metalcrafters had wedges at the bottom of the gnomon, which I guess allowed for milling to the appropriate angle - in which case I imagine that each of the the stock dial faces would have needed a few latitude variants too. By around 1950 Virginia Metalcrafters had some kind of arrangement with the US National Parks Service to make reproduction dials for US National Historic Sites. After closing down, their factory was designated as a Historic District. Long story short, because of these two companies, there are quite a lot of sundials dotted around North America, including some at much-visited National Historic Sites, with bird gnomons. There are even several on eBay at the present time. None of this explains why they chose birds, though. But one more thing: after looking at a few photos today, I got to wondering if the bird isn't /always/ a bird. For example the one at https://tinyurl.com/ychwhnz4 looks more like a phoenix or griffin to me. More googling, and I learned that the phoenix has sometimes been associated with or used to represent the sun, also time. Cheers, Steve On 2018-10-30 12:09 p.m., Schechner, Sara wrote: Hi Steve, You may know about the fabulously popular, fashionable Paris accessory from circa 1675 to the end of the 18th century: The Butterfield-type dial. The pocket dial had a gnomon with an adjustable angle for use at different latitudes. A sweet little bird's beak was the index on the latitude scale. See here for examples: http://waywiser.rc.fas.harvard.edu/search/butterfield Invented by Michael Butterfield, they were made by many different makers in Paris. They were so desirable that counterfeits were made signed Butterfield. Sara and On 2018-10-30 11:34 a.m., John Davis wrote: Hi Steve, The obvious early source for bird gnomons is the Butterfield style of portable dials. In England, the most common animal supporter is a dolphin or stylised fish. Regards, John --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Bird shapes in gnomons
Hi Steve, You may know about the fabulously popular, fashionable Paris accessory from circa 1675 to the end of the 18th century: The Butterfield-type dial. The pocket dial had a gnomon with an adjustable angle for use at different latitudes. A sweet little bird's beak was the index on the latitude scale. See here for examples: http://waywiser.rc.fas.harvard.edu/search/butterfield Invented by Michael Butterfield, they were made by many different makers in Paris. They were so desirable that counterfeits were made signed Butterfield. Sara Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D. David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific Instruments Lecturer on the History of Science Department of the History of Science, Harvard University Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: 617-496-9542 | Fax: 617-495-3344 | sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner http://chsi.harvard.edu/ -Original Message- From: sundial On Behalf Of Steve Lelievre Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 2:24 PM To: Sundial List Subject: Bird shapes in gnomons Hello, Gnomons on horizontal dials are mostly either undecorated triangles, or have simple polygonal or sigmoidal fretwork. However, recently I realized that the next most common form I encounter is a gnomon carved with the shape or silhouette of a bird. For example: http://sundials.org/images/NASS_Registry/Dial_334/334_md_towson_hampton_2a.jpg http://sundials.org/images/NASS_Registry/Dial_325/325_md_baltimore_clyburn_1.jpg (using a small stick to replace the missing filament that formed the style) http://sundials.org/images/NASS_Registry/Dial_920/920_bc_vancouver_knox_church-2a.jpg Is it coincidence that I encounter these designs relatively often? Or, is there some tradition of using bird motifs on sundials? If so, how did it originate and what do they symbolize? Steve --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
