Re: [Sursound] Sensory evaluation of concert halls
hi tapio, fons, On 01/23/2014 01:29 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 04:58:29PM +, Lokki Tapio wrote: One time window gives one direction estimate as it is an impulse response which is analyzed. In ideal impulse everything (all frequencies from one direction) are in one sample. In practise impulses are spread in time, but the idea still works well. to rephrase my priginal question: when you make a direction estimate for a single reflection, do you assume it's a scaled dirac pulse, or do you also take some coloration information by looking at the actual pulse over a short time window, to measure effects such as low-pass filtering etc.? Doesn't this then rely on reflections being separated more than the differences of time of arrival at the mics? i don't think that's true in the general case, but there may be some incidence patterns for near-simultaneous reflections which are ambiguous. but thinking about that makes my head hurt :) And even if not (if you really use correlation), as the density of reflections increases, there will be two or more within each time interval. In the reverb tail there will be many. How do you separate them ? if they reconstruct with DirAC, they don't need to. rather, the tails would be decorrelated per speaker and played back as a non-directional diffuse field. It's possible to do such things using MDS and related techniques, but none of those have been mentioned. out of curiousity, what does MDS stand for? -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Sensory evaluation of concert halls
sursound-requ...@music.vt.edumailto:sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu kirjoitti 21.1.2014 kello 19.00: thanks for elaborating! very interesting method and survey! one thing i'm asking myself: since you can only ever have one direction per time window, does that mean that each direction estimate will trigger a complete IR decay trail from the omni mic in that direction? i.e. your directional resolution is really high, at the cost of identical timbre of all reflections? are there any perceptual drawbacks? i'm sure i wouldn't notice, unless the carpet i'm standing on is knee-deep, but... :) particularly, will the seat dip effect be averaged and spread into all directions? One time window gives one direction estimate as it is an impulse response which is analyzed. In ideal impulse everything (all frequencies from one direction) are in one sample. In practise impulses are spread in time, but the idea still works well. Thus, after the directional analysis all samples of one omni IR is distributed to reproduction loudspeakers. This results that in reproduction loudspeakers the convolution reverbs are quite sparse. However, after convolution with anechoic signal the perceived spatial sound is very natural without any coloration. I hope this clarifies and answer to your question. We have not found any perceptual drawbacks. Naturally, the quality of IR is important, the used loudspeaker should reproduce short impulse, e.g., a dodec usually used in room acoustical measurements is not very good as it emits several impulses from all elements. And as far as I understand the seat-dip effect is correctly reproduced, but I do not have any data to prove it. At least it sounds the same as in-situ in real halls. Tapio -- Tapio Lokki tapio.lo...@aalto.fimailto:tapio.lo...@aalto.fi, https://mediatech.aalto.fi/~ktlokki/ Aalto University School of Science, Department of Media Technology PO Box 15500, FI-00076 Aalto, Finland, tel. +358-40-578 2486, fax +358-9-4702 5014 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140122/2bd4bc69/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] Sensory evaluation of concert halls
Jan 2014 Physics Today just landed on my desk and the cover article is by Tapio Lokki on evaluation of concert halls. Tasting music like wine: Sensory evaluation of concert halls http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/article/67/1/10.1063/PT.3.2242 It is labeled free content, so should be available to anyone. Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com) Menlo Park, CA US -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140117/c0e4d4d7/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Sensory evaluation of concert halls
On 01/17/2014 07:29 PM, Aaron Heller wrote: Jan 2014 Physics Today just landed on my desk and the cover article is by Tapio Lokki on evaluation of concert halls. Tasting music like wine: Sensory evaluation of concert halls http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/article/67/1/10.1063/PT.3.2242 It is labeled free content, so should be available to anyone. interesting. what puts me off a little is that they used an ad-hoc mic array of six spaced omnis, without giving any details whatsoever. how good can direction estimates be with that kind of setup? and how do you ensure the reproduced diffuse sound field is accurate? the actual meat is in here, it seems: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/133/2/10.1121/1.4770260 but sadly that one is not freely available. can't see myself paying $30 for a casual read... -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Sensory evaluation of concert halls
Also their POMA paper from ICA 2013, which is free (I think): Spatio-temporal energy measurements in renowned concert halls with a loudspeaker orchestra Sakari Tervo, Jukka Pätynen and Tapio Lokki POMA 19, 015019 (2013); http://dx.doi.org/10.1121/1.4799424 http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/poma/19/1/10.1121/1.4799424 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier netti...@stackingdwarves.net wrote: On 01/17/2014 07:29 PM, Aaron Heller wrote: Jan 2014 Physics Today just landed on my desk and the cover article is by Tapio Lokki on evaluation of concert halls. Tasting music like wine: Sensory evaluation of concert halls http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/magazine/physicstoday/article/67/1/10.1063/PT.3.2242 It is labeled free content, so should be available to anyone. interesting. what puts me off a little is that they used an ad-hoc mic array of six spaced omnis, without giving any details whatsoever. how good can direction estimates be with that kind of setup? and how do you ensure the reproduced diffuse sound field is accurate? the actual meat is in here, it seems: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/133/2/10.1121/1.4770260 but sadly that one is not freely available. can't see myself paying $30 for a casual read... -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140117/929db1e2/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
