We have all heard that we should conserve energy. The farmer should not be penalize for going the other way.
The co-op is in the electric business. All electricity is the same. That is one thing you don't need qc on. If the co-op doesn't want electricity, they shouldn't be in that business. The power companies brought this upon themselves by creating a power shortage and telling us we need to conserved electricity and then jacking up our rates. It will be interesting to note how much the co-op charges for electricity and how much they pay for it. Most energy producers have a disconnect from what it cost to produce electricity and what they charge for it. They justify the disconnect by saying that they charge "market price" for the electricity. There is only one agency that I know of that bases it electric rates on the actual cost of production, and that is the BPA. It has provided the lowest cost electricity in the US for years and that is one reason Bush has tried to run it into the ground. He wants it to be privatize it and then have it charge "market value" for electricity and have a disconnect from the cost of producing electricity. I think that one reason the co-op doesn't like this is because there is a disconnect between what they pay wholesale, and what it cost them to make electricity and what they charge retail. One case in point is that I haven't seen the electric rates go down since the advent of low cost electricity produce by wind turbines. How come it is ok for the co-op and other electric producers to play us, but not the other way around? Jeff From: "Bryan Brah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: RE: Re: [evworld] Iowa Farmer Focus of Wind-Energy Debate So what you're saying is that it's OK for this guy play the system to force the co-op to buy something they don't want because he's a "little guy," and they're just a big evil utility company? Despite the fact that this co-op is not Enron, and the fact that co-ops are (ostensibly) advocates for their members, do you think its fair or right to force someone (in this case the other co-op members) to buy something at twice the fair market value? If this "little guy" was really concerned with anything other than making money, he would have bought WTG half as large as he did, and used the extra money to buy a storage system. That way he could live off the grid completely. This is extortion pure and simple, and the fact that it's an electric co-op or an energy company or whatever, doesn't change that. -BRAH -----Original Message----- From: Jeff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:23 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: Re: [evworld] Iowa Farmer Focus of Wind-Energy Debate It seems to me that if the utility company would put a meter on the farmer's turbine, that the utility would then have the capacity to buy the farmer's electricity at wholesale and then sell it to the farmer at the retail price. I think the farmer would get screwed. If the utility wanted to play fair, then they would of ask the farmer if they could pay him the wholesale price for the electricity leaving the meter on his house, and not install a second meter. Anyone who would completely trust all electric companies, after Enron, should have their head examine. Enron purchase power from the Bonneville Power administration and sold it to California at marked up prices. California paid Enron for the power it got from them, but, Enron didn't pay the BPA for the power it purchase from them. Yet, Enron went bankrupt and the BPA chose to raise its electric rates rather then to get Enron to pay it what it owed them. Then, Steve Wright, BPA administer, tried to get different utility companies that buy power from the BPA, sign a paper to not go after the BPA or Enron with lawsuits if it would lower the electric rates that it sold power to them for. What surprise me was that a couple of utilities went for that. But, it didn't happen. I think some people were just using their utility as a stepping stone to get to the next Enron and to get notice by the right people. Jeff Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:38:24 -0600 From: "Bryan Brah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Re: [evworld] Iowa Farmer Focus of Wind-Energy Debate I heard this story this morning and had mixed feelings about it. While I think it's important to support renewable energy, I feel like this farmer is trying to take advantage of the law. We had a discussion on this board a couple of months ago about net metering. Net metering was a concept designed to help grid-connected consumers with electricity generating equipment to eliminate their need to have storage devices. It was intended to allow unused surplus electricity generated at point of use to be fed back on to the grid, thus REDUCING the consumer's bill (i.e. energy used - energy generated = NET). It was never designed to allow consumers to become producers, or to force utility companies to pay for electricity generated by consumers. Even when working as intended the law requiring net metering is disliked by utility companies and electric cooperatives because they lose the difference in price between retail and wholesale. Each kWh not bought reduces their income. They don't like net metering because it basically means that they have to pay retail price for electricity (around 6 cents per kWh) when the wholesale price is around 3 cents per kWh. Likewise utility companies feel like the government shouldn't tell them where to buy their electricity. This farmer is gaming the law by installing a turbine rated at three times his own need. If a few other consumers followed his lead, it would quickly bankrupt the utility. Imagine a system where the co-op has surplus electricity that it was forced to buy at retail price, if they sell it all to consumers, then they break even, but if they sell it to other co-ops or utility companies, they lose money because they only get wholesale price when they sell it. Even if they sold it all, and broke even, they still would still lose because they wouldn't have money to pay for line maintenance, repair, etc. To become a power producer requires federal and state licensing of your facility, whereas anyone can put a solar panel or wind turbine on his house. What this farmer has basically done is set himself up as a producer but sidestepped federal regulations by claiming to be a "consumer" with the right to net meter. This sets a very bad precedent. What happens if another farmer in a very remote location decides to install a wind farm on his property, but the interconnection infrastructure isn't strong enough to support the power output of the farm? Would you require the utility company to spend millions to build a substation and install new lines, even though it doesn't have customers for that electricity? The fact that the farmer refused the co-op's offer to install a second meter on the turbine and buy the surplus electricity at wholesale should tell you where this guy's motivations are. His claim that his bill would be the same even if the co-op bought his surplus is preposterous. -BRAH -----Original Message----- From: murdoch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 11:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [biofuel] Re: [evworld] Iowa Farmer Focus of Wind-Energy Debate On second thought, when I listen to it more closely, they seem to be offering the guy wholesale prices for his electricity, not the retail he wants (if I understood his points correctly). The presentation is a little confusing. At one point it seems to make the point they're offering him wholesale, but at another point he claims this would not make sufficient difference in his present bill (if they're offering wholesale, how could it not), nor would it amount to treating him the same as other suppliers (don't they get paid wholesale?) Some might say offering wholesale prices is unfair, but I think it's something. I think, if I had any say in the matter, I'd vote for "something in between wholesale and retail", but I was under the mistaken impression at first that they weren't offering him anything. Probably there are nuances to their offer that are not fair. It seems the more I speak to individual homeowners about their attempts to resolve net metering issues, there is often or always a twist by the local utility to make it sound like they're offering a great deal when they're really not. On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:11:33 -0800, you wrote: >http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1617139.html > >You have to click on "Morning Edition Audio". > >Pursuant to what I've been saying as to the importance of implementing >some sort of better national net metering efforts. > >It looks like this guy has set up a wind mill and for six years has >been denied the right by his local utility (a co-op) to connect his >mill to the grid and sell his power back. FERC, a Federal Agency, has >lined up behind him based on a 1978 law designed to promote renewable >energy, but so far this has not been enough. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. 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