[Biofuel] Billionaires for Bush picture gallery
http://www.billionairesforbush.com/photos.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Biofuels, not pictures of bush
What does Billionairesforbush have to do with Biofuels? I have a plan for a 1.5 million gallon per year ethanol plant the total funding need is 4,000,000 I will give 51% equity to an investor please send email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy of the plan. From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/10/05 Thu AM 02:45:16 EDT To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Subject: [Biofuel] Billionaires for Bush picture gallery http://www.billionairesforbush.com/photos.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Bob, Perhaps, though I don't believe so. I was skeptical about it, but the pain killer and crutches were getting me down. So when a Korean friend who was familiar with acupuncture said it would cure me quickly, I was primed to go. Maybe traditional science will catch up with this and other even more amazing therapies in alt healing. (You can bet that quackwatch will have acupuncture down as placebo effect at best.) I experienced a non-allopathic method of healing. (One of many.) IMO, western allopathic medicine is best suited for trauma injuries or acute problem like heart attacks, strokes, etc. For chronic illness, optimizing health, alt medicine is far superior. Also for optimizing health. Personal experience is not science. But it is as real as anything can possibly get. In the meantime, I think that medical docs should integrate the placebo effect into their treatments of sick folks. There is no doubt at all that the brain (mind) and every cell in the body are intimately connected. This is where it would be so nice if docs tried to establish a great rapport with the patient. This implies a doc who's truly trying to heal rather than knock out a list of drugs prescript for the person nervously sitting nearby. A lot of people have a trust and respect for their doctor. This makes the attitude of the doc very important. If the doc is sincerely interested in healing, this will tend to help his/her patient's health to improve regardless of the drugs prescribed. To think that the placebo effect is fraud and not medicine is wrong. As you know, it is very real, so why not use it? Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect? D. Mindock wrote: I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back in the OR with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as they worked on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Bob, Acupuncture should be used more widely. Hypnosis, which is just a method to enhance power of suggestion, has been used for dental work. I imagine it too can be used for surgery patients. It is easier to learn than acupuncture. Doctors should be looking for ways to make their procedures safer for their patients (and themselves). This is the right thing to do. So if acupuncture and hypnosis work, and they sure seem to, then use them if at all possible. But would anesthesiologists embrace this? I doubt it. So inertia is created where there should be none. The status quo is preserved. This is true for so many issues. We all suffer from this relunctance to change, modify, improve. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? As far as I am aware, malpractice insurance is the highest for anesthesiologists, for the reasons mention here before- sedating a person is a risky business. If you could achieve the same sedation without drugs and therefore side effects, the practice of medicine should be much cheaper, right? which means more profit right? Why don't we hear of more anesthesiologists using this technique? Or how about dentists. A little girl died in Chicago, due to negligence I presume, during a dental procedure conducted under anesthetic. Ever heard of a root canal done with acupuncture alone? Just curious Keith Addison wrote: could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect? No, speaking from quite extensive experience of it in East Asia. But then I suppose that's just a testimonial eh? Actually my experience of it was two-sided, both personal and investigating and writing about it. It's not just mumbo-jumbo, it has a sound scientific basis even though Western (ie allopathic) medicine doesn't see it that way. Acupuncture was previously a part of Western medicine, it was used quite extensively in both Holland and Italy and probably elsewhere in Europe, until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect either, would they now. actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known. http://skepdic.com/nocebo.html * More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through their heads could produce a headache. * Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about past experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause itchy rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys they were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree. Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy, itchy rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual poison did not react. (Gardiner Morse, The nocebo effect, Hippocrates, November 1999, Hippocrates.com) * In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women with similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. Nocebos Contribute to a Host of Ills. Journal of the American Medical Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might argue that the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk factors may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies better than the objective tests could reveal.] * C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may actually get sick and die because of their belief (Hex Death: Voodoo Magic or Persuasion? Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): 244-47). * In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they believed to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized saltwater solution.* Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital, found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient expectation of adverse effects of treatment or
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Can you tell me a bed time story? Mike Weaver wrote: Proof schmoof. I'm here to tell you it works. I pricked my finger on a spindle and slept for 99 days. -W Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff goes on. I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong reference as it was. Cheers Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the sham group .here "However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex." I edited at this point as the following does not describe the aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that acupuncture works as an anesthetic. BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make more money writing historical fiction for bushco please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary No I haven't had surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about how a chinese herbalist You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have our own viewpoints and leave it at that. we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
and howdy to you Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bob ... until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect either, would they now. actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known. Uh, try telling it to a thalidomide baby. Or his/her mother. Or, with so many tips of so many icebergs to choose from, how about these? For instance. actually I said some. I was not implying all. I am well aware of the thalidomide issue. In fact I use it as a case study in my tox class. An interesting feature if this is that although the drug was approved for use in Europe and england, cases of phcomelia started showing up around 1959. Because of the then active FDA in the US, it had not been approved. Dare I say that it had not been approved yet in the US because of higher scientific standards for safety and efficacy. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg54672.html [Biofuel] How a New Policy Led to Seven Deadly Drugs (The whole series is there in the archives.) Sure, as Robert was saying, vaccinations and antibiotics certainly have their uses - without them how many people would have died of smallpox and polio etc? On the other hand, how many people would have died in the same period without the widespread global use of their traditional medicine systems (which is what the much-maligned alternatives mostly are)? More would be dead, many more, hence the rather more than mere lip-service paid to traditional healers by the WHO in 3rd World development work. one more time, I am not saying that traditional medicine in aggregate is ineffective, only that in a few recent cases which have in the past been touted as efficacious, the recored is mixed at best. Hence my adherence to science as the ultimate arbiter. As Kirk says, once a community has been using a remedy for generations they'll know how effective it is and what the dangerous side-effects might be. Testimonial evidence, yes. Much the same as the way medical science so often has to have its feet pulled out of the fire by the findings of epidemiological studies. I consider epidimiology a effective methodology if done correctly. Epidemiology can discover effects undetectable in limited trials, simply because of the numbers. Consider for example the testing of an agent be it an herb, supplement or drug (they really are the same thing). You test it in a group of a thousand and find no ill effect. You then market it and there turns out to be a fatal effect that only is observed one in ten thousand times. Hence epidemiological studies are merely another phase in testing So much for test-tubes sans real life in the real world with all its pesky variables and inconvenient interconnections. that what science is all about- an attempt to untangle those variables to see what is real. Both sides have their abuses and abusers. Quackery? How would you describe Bayer's extraordinary attitude in refusing to withdraw the antibiotics used in livestock feed that have led to lethally immune pathogens for which there's now no cure? This danger - now a reality (people are being killed by it) - was first revealed in scientific studies decades ago. I agree, science can only produce data, political action is necessary Using antibiotics in livestock feed is useless anyway - see the Danish example, for one. No more antibiotics, no problems either, in a large national poultry industry. True science? Am I now to be labelled anti-science in this futile attempt to draw a clear line where there can only be grey areas? no, in fact it would appear that you are taking a relatively scientific approach. and a final note in closing: I will be away from my computer to attend for the umteenth time, the Helena blues festival, in the heart of the delta on the Mississippi river. back Sunday ( I am an old hippy, who makes his living as a chemistry professor.) http://www.bluesandheritage.com/ toodles -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob = The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
We all need a bedtime story Joe Street wrote: Can you tell me a bed time story? Mike Weaver wrote: Proof schmoof. I'm here to tell you it works. I pricked my finger on a spindle and slept for 99 days. -W Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff goes on. I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong reference as it was. Cheers Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the sham group .here However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex. I edited at this point as the following does not describe the aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that acupuncture works as an anesthetic. BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make more money writing historical fiction for bushco please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary No I haven't had surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about how a chinese herbalist You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have our own viewpoints and leave it at that. we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote:
Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River,
Hey Easy on Bob there Mike; It's like you're throwing out the baby with the wash water there! Despite his stubborn insistence on proof for everything (which is admirable in a way) He has made significant effort to do good here and in his lab and probably in a great many things or I'm sure we wouldn't find him here. Myself I'm a bit of a walking conflict of interest. LMAO. I want to believe things but I feel better with proof! And like Keith I want to help people but I want them to help themselves. Maybe one day my personality will straighten out and become one. And so will mine! Shutup Joe I'm talking now. But anyways re the other stuff, I guess you weren't around when I added a list of subversive key words to the archives just for giggles. Yeah I have a messed up sense of humour that most people don't get and I am just starting to realize it. But I'm notI don't believe anything he says. Shutup Joe. Ahhh well just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching you and likewise just because you can't prove a thing doesn't mean it isn't true right? Ok time to go. I have to install my FTIR. Hey that means I'll be able to get definitive results for my biodee Bob! Yaaay! Cheers Joe MK DuPree wrote: Jeez Joe...if your intent is to save me from "setting off alarm bells down at the NSA" for emailing words like "risk all" or "ultimate necessary act," why are you reiterating these words? And why are you asking me what I mean by these words? Now I AM having difficulty calming down.For the record, by "risk all" and "necessary act" I mean...putting on a clown suit with big red nose and floppy hat and making a child smile...or scare the crap out of him or her. Clowns were always weird to me. Or those dummies ventriloquists would put on their knee and make look like the dummy was talking. Remember that episode of Twilight Zone where the dummy was the real guy and the guy was the dummy?Then there was the Lone Ranger and his sidekick Tonto...give me a break...but I sure bought into it when I was a kid and TV was still new.Or Superman?Poor George Reeves...supposedly killed himself, but there are inconsistencies surrounding the incident. But I'm sure there's an explanation to it all...ask Bob. He's an archetype now, even cultural icon,but feeling "awefull." Not sure, myself, what it all means, except more crap piling up around me. Now I'm beginning to feel awful too. But I'm still in awe.Forgive me if I'm not expressing myself clearly enough.The NSA is watching. Thanks Joe, for the heads up...and Bob, for the heads down.Perhaps somewhere between the two of you I'll find my peace...where the river glows. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River, Hey man calm down. What do you mean by 'risk all' or 'ultimate necessary act'. You're setting off alarm bells down at the NSA. Ever been to Cuba? I hear it's nice this time of year.if you like hurricanes and beatings. How about we all just go down and march around with words painted on our naked bodies? That's got to get news coverage! Joe MK DuPree wrote: But does it piss you...or any of us...off enough to do something that really matters??? I'm not judging, just truly asking, because I'm just as guilty, if there is guilt to be placed, as the next guy. We talk, we rant, we rave...and the crap keeps piling up. Who will do what is truly necessary and risk all to stop the absurdity Write words, make movies, dance all around the edges of the ultimate, necessary act,while the crap keeps piling up. How much crap will be enough? What crap is enough? What crap do we attack first? There's so much of itin every direction. Pissed off? HELL YESS I'M PISSED OFF. So what?So what's new? We've become like the Bob's of the world, lost all our sense of awe.Heads swollen with information thatmatters only in how it tears us down instead of putting us back together. Isolated littlemolecules who have lost all touch with the grandeur that connects us all. We hide...fearful...alone.And what the heck does "DHAJOGLO" stand for??? My name is Mike DuPree. I live in Lawrence, Kansas. I'm going outside now. - Original Message - From: "DHAJOGLO" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River, If I recall, the US went to war with Iraq because they were hiding WMD's from the inspectors. Iraq would not let the inspectors into the weapons facilities. Based on that, shouldn't we go to war with the DOE, or, at the very least, Washington state? They are clearly hiding a large dirty bomb that's been slowly exploding for several years. Pisses me off. Glow, River, Glow: Radioactive Leaks and Plumbers at Hanford
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels, not pictures of bush
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does Billionairesforbush have to do with Biofuels? Aarghhh!!! LOL! I have a plan for a 1.5 million gallon per year ethanol plant the total funding need is 4,000,000 I will give 51% equity to an investor please send email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy of the plan. This isn't the place to be touting funding opportunities. We first heard about Fred's plan in May 2005, FYI, in case you do just happen to have the odd $4 million left over from the housekeeping. Ethanol is the siliver bullet our country needs. small scale is possiable with the right system, - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Biofuel list, 26 Aug 2001 I guess Fred can work it out for himself quite what Billionairesforbush has to do with biofuels. Or maybe not. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/10/05 Thu AM 02:45:16 EDT To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Subject: [Biofuel] Billionaires for Bush picture gallery http://www.billionairesforbush.com/photos.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River,
Hey D; It's true. I work with a cuban guy and he tells me lots of stories from when he lived there and he says exactly the same. They are very happy though they have to line up for everything and struggle often to have what they need. Right again about the sustainable farming. I can't get over how the US government is still paranoid about Fidel. WTF? Joe D. Mindock wrote: I met a guy last week at the local university who had just visited Cuba. He said "Cubans are a very happy people. They have nothing much. They derive their happiness from their relationships, basically." We here in America have everything, in comparison. But things do not bring happiness. I'd love to visit Cuba. I flew over Cuba coming back from Panama last year, seemed to be pretty big. I know they are big into organic farming since that is what you do when you have nothing. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River, Hey man calm down. What do you mean by 'risk all' or 'ultimate necessary act'. You're setting off alarm bells down at the NSA. Ever been to Cuba? I hear it's nice this time of year.if you like hurricanes and beatings. How about we all just go down and march around with words painted on our naked bodies? That's got to get news coverage! Joe MK DuPree wrote: But does it piss you...or any of us...off enough to do something that really matters??? I'm not judging, just truly asking, because I'm just as guilty, if there is guilt to be placed, as the next guy. We talk, we rant, we rave...and the crap keeps piling up. Who will do what is truly necessary and risk all to stop the absurdity Write words, make movies, dance all around the edges of the ultimate, necessary act,while the crap keeps piling up. How much crap will be enough? What crap is enough? What crap do we attack first? There's so much of itin every direction. Pissed off? HELL YESS I'M PISSED OFF. So what?So what's new? We've become like the Bob's of the world, lost all our sense of awe.Heads swollen with information thatmatters only in how it tears us down instead of putting us back together. Isolated littlemolecules who have lost all touch with the grandeur that connects us all. We hide...fearful...alone.And what the heck does "DHAJOGLO" stand for??? My name is Mike DuPree. I live in Lawrence, Kansas. I'm going outside now. - Original Message - From: "DHAJOGLO" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River, If I recall, the US went to war with Iraq because they were hiding WMD's from the inspectors. Iraq would not let the inspectors into the weapons facilities. Based on that, shouldn't we go to war with the DOE, or, at the very least, Washington state? They are clearly hiding a large dirty bomb that's been slowly exploding for several years. Pisses me off. Glow, River, Glow: Radioactive Leaks and Plumbers at Hanford Jeffrey St. Clair The outback of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in eastern Washington State is called the T-Farm, a rolling expanse of high desert sloping toward the last untamed reaches of the Columbia River. The T stands for tanks, huge single-hulled containers buried some fifty feet beneath basalt volcanic rock and sand holding the lethal detritus of Hanford's fifty-year run as the nation's H-bomb factory. ... John Brodeur is one of the nation's top environmental engineers and a world-class geologist. In 1997, after a whistleblower at Hanford disclosed evidence that the groundwater beneath the central plateau had been contaminated by plumes of radioactivity, Hazel O'Leary commissioned Brodeur to investigate how far the contamination had spread. It proved to be a nearly impossible assignment since the DOE and its contractors had taken extreme measures to conceal the data or avoid collecting it entirely. ___ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
Hi Robert; See my rudely injected comments below robert and benita rabello wrote: Kurt Nolte wrote: On the one side we have Bob Allen, who seems in my mind to be making a perfectly reasonable claim: he just wants to see some numbers, some "real evidence" to convince him that herbs are only efficacious as herbs, and not as their constituent compounds. I agree that this is a reasonable position, provided that "real evidence" can be obtained. I sense, from reading the opposing posts, that many who argue against Bob Allen's position do so because they disagree on what constitutes "evidence." The underlying supposition is that the system that creates commercial pharmaceuticals is so dominated by big corporations and big money, it's virtually impossible to tell what is actually efficacious by studies that are, by and large, funded by the industry itself. This funding represents a clear conflict of interest. YESSS! Thank you. And nicely said. While I see some wisdom in this, I find myself wondering how we ever managed to rid the world of smallpox and drastically reduce the incidence of polio without effective vaccines. I remember when people died from AIDS rather quickly and miserably, yet the medicinal cocktails prescribed to HIV positive patients these days can extend lifetimes and quality of life considerably. I wonder how we've managed to significantly reduce infections from battlefield wounds with antibiotics. I'm astonished that the 'triptan-family medications I take for migraines manage to miraculously stop a debilitating headache DEAD in its tracks when there must be some herb that would do a better job, but has not yet been discovered by man. And yes, I have amalgam fillings in my mouth and underwent the dreaded fluoride treatments on my very healthy teeth as a child. (In fact, I still have a baby tooth in my mouth! It's been there for over 40 years, and it's still going strong.) No need to wonder. These technologies did acheive the results you mention. The only criticism I would add is that the technologies have a hidden oops factor. (As technology ALWAYS does) Nobody knew about it and now huge industries have emerged and dominated the scene and we have the conflict of interest you so eloquently outlined above. I've been general anaethstesia on two occasions without experiencing more than a little sleepiness. But then, my experience is "testimonial" in nature, and the results of pharmaceutical effectiveness on me should not be deemed scientific. Having written this, a vasectomy without anaethstesia would likely be considered excessive, even by the standards of the latest "detainee bill" that passed the Senate last week. LOL but more importantly.how did you get the blessings of your local preist on that one! (Joking) This arguing reminds me of the creationism debate. Both sides look at the same "evidence", yet draw radically different conclusions based upon a priori assumptions. On the one hand, some people believe that God "magically" created life in six, literal 24 hour periods of time a little over 6 000 years ago. (In doing this, much hand waving dismisses overwhelming convergence of independent data that supports a far older universe.) These folk contend that if I don't believe in this, that I can't claim legitimate faith. On the other hand, equally passionate people examine the evidence and claim that belief in God is unnecessary to explain the origins of life on earth. If you have another viewpoint, there is no conflict between evolution and the existence of a God. I understand that the earth is old. I have no philosophical problem with the concept of common ancestry among living things. Yet my Christian faith gives meaning and purpose to my life. How can I dismiss something that makes so much sense to me? Who am I to judge how God chooses to create life? So if I have a physiological problem and my university-trained South African doctor recommends a given pharmaceutical, I trust his judgment, talk to him about its contraindications and review these with the pharmacist when I pick up the prescription. I do this because I believe the man has integrity, and I trust the integrity of the "scientific" process that produced the medicine. (Ah, a convergence of faith and science!) On the other hand, I also understand that I should eat right, exercise and avoid doing things that bring harm to myself. I'm getting old, and I can feel the impact of age on my body, yet that doesn't mean I shouldn't exert any effort into staving off the inevitable decline of my health that will, bar the Parousia--should I live to see it--result in my demise. Parousia? I've given up being a vegetarian based on information I've gleaned in the discussions and scientific literature presented in this forum. Some people in my family think I'm
[Biofuel] Need a little help with German online
Any fluent German-speakers who can help me? I have to handle some online forms and so on at a German website. Their English is excellent, but they can't help me with the forms, German-language software I guess. They say it needs a German speaker working with me online. Not a big job, it shouldn't take very long. Please respond offlist, it's not of general interest (not off-topic either though). Thanks! All best Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
Joe Street wrote: Hi Robert; See my rudely injected comments below I want to get a bumper sticker for my truck made that reads: "Injection is nice. Being blown is nice. Why can't I have both?" Well, I do . . . : - ) (Conflicts of interest in the pharaceutical industy) YESSS! Thank you. And nicely said. I DO pay attention to what people write in this forum, even if I don't agree with the content of their posts. (Not necessarily true of you, Joe.) (Efficacy of modern medicine) No need to wonder. These technologies did acheive the results you mention. The only criticism I would add is that the technologies have a hidden oops factor. (As technology ALWAYS does) Nobody knew about it and now huge industries have emerged and dominated the scene and we have the conflict of interest you so eloquently outlined above. So then, we need to be careful not to dismiss advances in medicine offhand. Building a relationship of trust with a competent physician is an important component of such care. I'm very reluctant to try "new" medicines, though I've done so with migraine medications because they tend to lose their effectiveness over time. (Now that I'm working at home, however, I've had ONE migraine in two years, whereas I used to get them two or three times per month!) One of the principles for sustainability that we've discussed MANY times in this forum centers upon generating local solutions to local issues. Whether these relate to food production (as the African case study Keith posted earlier outlines), energy use (please don't get me started on "salvation by ethanol"!!!), education, politics and human rights, people are remarkably adaptable and often quite clever when it comes to survival. (vasectomy) LOL but more importantly.how did you get the blessings of your local preist on that one! (Joking) The Lord said: "Be fruitful and multiply." He meant business, but I've already done my part . . . (creationism debate) If you have another viewpoint, there is no conflict between evolution and the existence of a God. No conflict, unless your entire belief system is built upon a selectively literal interpretation of Genesis that cannot acknowledge the literary context of the creation narrative. On the other side, it's dangerous to fall into a "God in the gaps" theory that inserts the divine into increasingly narrow situations where our understanding of how life developed on earth remains incomplete. Fear that discovering mechanisms to explain the diversity of life somehow diminishes the sovereignty and power of God is at the root of Christian Fundamentalist opposition to evolution. Some fundies go so far as to state that the whole "plan of salvation" rests upon belief in their selectively literal interpretation of the creation and flood stories. (And yes, they wink at some of the statements in the scriptures, too!) Conversely, dismissing a divine origin for life leads to the inevitable conclusion that life arose spontaneously. I know that many people believe this, but in my view, that's as much a matter of faith as is believing that God created all life in six, 24 hour periods. Do I have faith? Absolutely! Do I think I'm right? Resolutely! But that doesn't mean I won't listen . . . Parousia? Uh oh, my own Fundamentalism is showing!!! http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066515/Second-Coming robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was Testimonials as Evidence)
My apologies then, Joe, Bob. I picked the most prominent/recent opposition posts. I also wrote that original at ~3AM my time, if memory serves me. Joe Street wrote: Hi Kurt; Pardon my snipping style but. Kurt Nolte wrote: snip On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head. These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by synthetic processes just don't hack it. Actually I don't believe I ever said that! I am opposing Bob to some degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are saying about the others. I am very scientifically inclined, I run a university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the answers. I still have great respect for science and believe that one day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain. All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected. I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in dissagreement. I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed minded. Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels, not pictures of bush
Ok Fred; I'll give you 4,000,000. 4,000,000 kicks in the A** that is! Big business is part of the problem man not the solution. Small is beutiful get it? It's got to be local in order to be sustainable. Or haven't you benn paying attention? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does Billionairesforbush have to do with Biofuels? I have a plan for a 1.5 million gallon per year ethanol plant the total funding need is 4,000,000 I will give 51% equity to an investor please send email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy of the plan. From: "D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/10/05 Thu AM 02:45:16 EDT To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Subject: [Biofuel] Billionaires for Bush picture gallery http://www.billionairesforbush.com/photos.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Dude your experience won't matter in this discussion. That is not to say it isn't worth anythingespecially to YOU obviously. Med doctors here cannot include placebo or anything not by the numbers in their work because it bucks the SYSTEM. You know what happens to a doc when they buck the system? The can't get insured. Shut down. My doctor candidly discussed this with me. He grew up where naturopathic and western medicine were much more integrated. When he immigrated here he naturally began to practice the way he had been taught. He got severely slapped by the medical community here and the insurance cartel. He told me he could not professionaly endorse any non western type treatment or medicine. He also said if it works for you then go with it but I didn't just tell you that as professional advice. Go figure. It's a big well oiled machine and it will chew up and spit out anything which gets in it's way. Joe D. Mindock wrote: Bob, Perhaps, though I don't believe so. I was skeptical about it, but the pain killer and crutches were getting me down. So when a Korean friend who was familiar with acupuncture said it would cure me quickly, I was primed to go. Maybe traditional science will catch up with this and other even more amazing therapies in alt healing. (You can bet that quackwatch will have acupuncture down as placebo effect at best.) I experienced a non-allopathic method of healing. (One of many.) IMO, western allopathic medicine is best suited for trauma injuries or acute problem like heart attacks, strokes, etc. For chronic illness, optimizing health, alt medicine is far superior. Also for optimizing health. Personal experience is not science. But it is as real as anything can possibly get. In the meantime, I think that medical docs should integrate the placebo effect into their treatments of sick folks. There is no doubt at all that the brain (mind) and every cell in the body are intimately connected. This is where it would be so nice if docs tried to establish a great rapport with the patient. This implies a doc who's truly trying to heal rather than knock out a list of drugs prescript for the person nervously sitting nearby. A lot of people have a trust and respect for their doctor. This makes the attitude of the doc very important. If the doc is sincerely interested in healing, this will tend to help his/her patient's health to improve regardless of the drugs prescribed. To think that the placebo effect is fraud and not medicine is wrong. As you know, it is very real, so why not use it? Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: "bob allen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the placebo effect? D. Mindock wrote: I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back in the OR with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as they worked on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: "bob allen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels, not pictures of bush
He's giving Fred's a bad name!!fredOn 10/5/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok Fred; I'll give you 4,000,000. 4,000,000 kicks in the A** that is! Big business is part of the problem man not the solution. Small is beutiful get it? It's got to be local in order to be sustainable. Or haven't you benn paying attention? Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What does Billionairesforbush have to do with Biofuels? I have a plan for a 1.5 million gallon per year ethanol plantthe total funding need is 4,000,000I will give 51% equity to an investorplease send email address to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy of the plan. From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/10/05 Thu AM 02:45:16 EDT To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; Subject: [Biofuel] Billionaires for Bush picture gallery http://www.billionairesforbush.com/photos.php ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River,
Hi Joe...today's the birthday of Vaclav Havel. From a mailing list I subscribe to, The Writer's Almanac: It's the birthday of one of the few writers ever to become the leader of a country, Czech dramatist and president Václav Havel, (books by this author) born in Prague (1936). In the 1960s, he wrote a series of absurdist plays, including The Garden Party (1964) and The Memorandum (1965), that attacked the Communist Party, describing the way in which the Communists were ruining the language by introducing all kinds of euphemisms and clichés. Havel kept protesting the government, refusing to go into exile the way so many other writers and artists in the country did. He was jailed several times, and then in 1989, after another arrest and imprisonment, he was released early because thousands of artists protested to the prime minister. He'd become a national hero. After the collapse of the Communist regime, he helped negotiate the transition to democracy, and in December of 1989, he was elected president, the first non-communist leader of his country since 1948. He stepped down from power in 2003. Václav Havel said, "If you want to see your plays performed the way you wrote them, become president." Not sure this has anything to do with being easy on Bob or calming down or what it means to "risk all" or "the ultimate necessary act" or the two faces of Joe, but wanted to mention it anyway. I'm hardly as talented as Havel and certainly don't have his guts, while thecliches and euphemisms we're faced with come from more and varied directions than just the government (and when it does come from the government, it comes from a government that is immensely layeredbeyond anything Havel ever encountered). Ah well...I appreciate your sense of humor Joe, as well as your most recent posts to D., Kurt, and Robert. We're all faced with somethinghuge, complicated, and doing the best we can to deal with it. It would be nice to wrap it all up into one guy or a few of his cronies or some isolated molecule or explanation. But it'sbigger than all of them and yet perhaps smaller too, because it has to do with each of us individually. Alas, even so,my observationis that itis not any one of us alone or any group alone. ItIS immense beyond our comprehension, at least our discriminating comprehension, our comprehension that requires a "division of labor." That part of us helps us bounce off each other more casually than we might without it. Unfortunately, however, it's the part of us upon which we place too much of our attention and we find ourselves arguing about the efficacy of isolated molecules or virus, forgetting the individual is part of a greater, eternal existence, which words will never be able to accurately describe because of what it always is being. With our discriminating comprehension, we say something is this, forgetting that this is part of that. But what is that? I dont' know, except perhaps this: "That" is the question upon which we need to fix our discriminating comprehension in order to truly understand, and maneuver properly thereby among, each other because we have first been able to do so within ourselvesin our relationshipto that.Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glow, River, Hey Easy on Bob there Mike;It's like you're throwing out the baby with the wash water there! Despite his stubborn insistence on proof for everything (which is admirable in a way) He has made significant effort to do good here and in his lab and probably in a great many things or I'm sure we wouldn't find him here. Myself I'm a bit of a walking conflict of interest. LMAO. I want to believe things but I feel better with proof! And like Keith I want to help people but I want them to help themselves. Maybe one day my personality will straighten out and become one. And so will mine! Shutup Joe I'm talking now. But anyways re the other stuff, I guess you weren't around when I added a list of subversive key words to the archives just for giggles. Yeah I have a messed up sense of humour that most people don't get and I am just starting to realize it. But I'm notI don't believe anything he says. Shutup Joe. Ahhh well just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching you and likewise just because you can't prove a thing doesn't mean it isn't true right? Ok time to go. I have to install my FTIR. Hey that means I'll be able to get definitive results for my biodee Bob! Yaaay!CheersJoeMK DuPree wrote: Jeez Joe...if your intent is to save me from "setting off alarm bells down at the NSA" for emailing words like "risk all" or "ultimate necessary act," why are you reiterating these words? And why are you asking me what I mean by these words? Now I AM having
[Biofuel] Ethanol and my car.
Hi all, Been a while since I posted (I broke my ankle skateboarding and I had been sidelined for a while). I've been playing catch-up ever since. Any way, since I've been back on my feet I've been working on my camper (77 VW Bus) to get it ready for winter and keep it from falling to bits. Prior to my injury I had been trying to assemble the parts to put a Rabbit diesel engine in it but, had run into problems finding an affordable engine in decent condition. Recently, I've been working on getting the engine right since I don't have the money to do all the body work that I want to do and today it occurred to me that I now have a very good understanding of the fuel injection system on this vehicle. That got me to thinking that I might have the resources to convert this engine to run ethanol. I found this book in one of Keith's posts: How to Modify Your Car to Run on Alcohol Fuel (Guidelines for Converting Gasoline Engines, with Specific Instructions for Air-Cooled Volkswagens), R. Lippman, 1982. Hmmm, fits my criteria pretty darned well if it covers fuel injection. Anyone have (or had) a copy? Is it worthwhile? It seems to me that there might only be one part that would require replacement (I've replaced all the rubber anyway) but, I've have to take a deeper look. The way I remember it is that an adjustment to the spray pattern and an increase in compression are both good things and that a preheater is helpful during cold months. Can anyone summarize or point me to the changes needed to run ethanol? Any additional help would be most appreciated. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
