[Biofuel] Another really cute video

2008-01-14 Thread Chip Mefford

What? Logic?
perish the thought!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ

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Re: [Biofuel] Not censorship, it's just selectorship

2008-01-14 Thread gustl
Hallo Bob,

I  certainly  remember  our sister ship, the Liberty.  I also remember
the  Gulf  of  Tonkin  incident.   See the piece at Yahoo News cited
below:

http://snipurl.com/1xdix

We  have  known  this  was a manufactured incident for a long time but
apparently  the  whole  story  has  just  been  confirmed  and  made
official.  Makes ones heart warm when pondering on the honesty of ones
government. :o/

Happy Happy,

Gustl



Sunday, 13 January, 2008, 17:57:30, you wrote:

BM Interesting comment from a retired US naval officer living in Malaysia.

BM regards.
BM Bob.


BM Friends:

BM I am using IE-9, Microsoft's latest browser which provides for
multiple homepages.  I have two US based News Media pages as
homepages, plus Google's homepage... but not the vanilla,
BM brown-paper wrapped version!

BM I have installed Google homepage from Google Stuff, and opted to
modify it with the Malaysian version, in which I get to select
Malaysian oriented stuff.

BM Vis. http://www.google.com.my/ig?hl=en.

BM I have selected Malaysian News, which is a selection of World and
Local news articles from local mainstream news sources here in Malaysia. 
They are, like other MSM sources in Amerika and
BM elsewhere, influenced by government agencies, controls and economic
factors which MSM organs cannot escape.  In Malaysia the Free Press, is
probably no more free than elsewhere.

BM Yet, when I open all three of my homepage news sources and compare
headlines in all three of them, I see the Malaysian News page is strongly
outnumbered by the other two, strictly US pages,
BM which seem to follow some kind of protocol or party lines... war, war,
war... American problems in conflict, and the difficulties encountered
exporting and distributing Freedom and Democracy to
BM the rest of the world, while the Malaysian component seems to, naively
perhaps, assume that most of the rest of the world is about as free and
democratic as it will ever be, or not be, and does
BM not waste much time on these issues, except from time to time,
noticing that US Forces are killing a lot of people here and there,
without much commentary on the altruistic motives and sacrifices
BM behind such slaughter in the name of Freedom, God, and Democracy.

BM Just one more small reason why it is nice living somewhere else.


BM And a snip from his previous email re the recent threat to US naval
forces in the Straits of Hormuz:


BM Bush gets briefing on US-Iran incident

BM By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent 10 minutes ago

BM Note; Mr. Hunt is a White House Correspondent.  I should stop
reading here!

BM MANAMA, Bahrain - A naval commander told President Bush on Sunday that
he is taking the recent confrontation between Iranian and U.S. Navy forces
in the Persian Gulf deadly seriously.




BM White House press secretary Dana Perino said Bush did not raise the
showdown in the Hormuz Strait when he spoke with U.S. Vice Adm. Kevin
Cosgriff, commander of the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, which
BM patrols the Gulf.  But Perino said Cosgriff told the president that he
took it very seriously when an Iranian fleet of high-speed boats on Jan. 6
charged at and threatened to blow up a three-ship
BM U.S. Navy convoy passing near Iranian waters.  The Iranian naval
forces vanished as the American ship commanders were preparing to open
fire.

BM If a fleet of boats, large or small, ...charged at and threatened to
blow up a three-ship U.S. Navy convoy... (NOTE: The US Navy does not sail
in convoy, as merchant ships do.  Navies sail in
BM Formations) and the Task Force Commander took it deadly seriously
or even just seriously, it was his duty to open fire and destroy them. 
Defense of your vessels is the prime reason for him
BM being there!  He did not fire so apparently he did not perceive a
threat, however dramatic his story may sound

BM Most war stories are much more spectacular, frightening, and heroic,
post-war!  If Mr. Bush believed this man, he should have relieved him of
Command before coffee was served.

BM Bush spoke with Cosgriff after he had a breakfast of pancakes and
bacon with troops of the U.S. 5th Fleet based in Bahrain.

BM All the military people remember what happened in the past, such as
the USS Cole, Perino said, referring to the October 2000 terrorist attack
on a U.S. warship, the USS Cole.  The attack in
BM Yemen's Aden harbor by a small boat laden with explosives killed 17
sailors and nearly sank the Cole.

BM Apparently, no one remembers the USS Liberty.  I do!

BM www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html


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BM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

BM Search the combined

Re: [Biofuel] For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

2008-01-14 Thread Bill Ellis
300 seems kind small that's like 15' X 20'. A standard Mobile Home is about 
900. Something special about this house?

Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  

Subject: For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto


http://deathby1000papercuts.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-sale-300-sq-ft-house-in-toronto.html
For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

They're proud of it the asking price is $179, 900.00.



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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages

2008-01-14 Thread David Lawson
Hello Keith,

What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of Big 
Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result.

Not sure I understand your statement but maybe it is just a grammatical error? 

For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom

Bottom of what? If the workers didn't have the job they would be in line at the 
unemployment office, welfare office or working at another job for the same 
wages and likely less benefits. As for the shoppers they would be driving to 
half a dozen locations wasting fuel to buy what they need and can get at one 
location.

for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to 
China/wherever

How is exploitation when they are working for a paycheck? Most of the people 
have no other opportunities due to mostly lack of drive and/or education. In 
China and other lands around the world, I realize many issues exist with 
regards to living, working and numerous other conditions, however those 
countries governments are to blame not the wal-marts of the world. The mom and 
pop stores sell they same products albeit at a higher price due to the 
logistics of getting small quantities to more locations not because the worker 
was paid more, given better working conditions or any such thing.

David

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello David

What exactly is so wrong with Big Box Stores?

What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of
Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result. For
workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom, for the store
workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to
China/wherever, for consumer health it's part of the disease, for the
environment it's part of the disaster. Waldemart.

Please do see:
http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=walmart[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Biofuel - walmart 133 matches

or

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]q=wal-mart
Biofuel - wal-mart 222 matches

I can go to one store and buy most everything I need and granted some
things I don't really need but want just the same. I don't have to drive
15 miles to five different locations to buy the things I can buy at one
location. It is not just about convenience but about efficiency both in
my time as well as resources. Think about the overall resources to get
products to five different stores or five products to one store! It is
not just about my efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all
resources. My local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local
suppliers when it is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to
the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very
same produce. The local farmers here love Wal-Mart!

I'd appreciate a little detail to corroborate that last bit, about local
farmers round there loving WalMart, if you have any. Can you quote a local
farmer at a farmers market saying they love Walmart? Serious request, not
a challenge, I'm collecting data on such things. Thanks!

Walmart, Target, Costco, Wild Oats are being sued for selling fake
organic milk from Aurora.
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71568.html

Etc.:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=enie=ISO-8859-1q=walmart+%2Borganic
walmart +organic - Google Search

Oh well. Chip did say it's an effective approach.

Best

Keith



Regards,
David
Chip Mefford  wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote:


 Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.

 http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/

   This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival.

It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it.

Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just
yet still another slam against WallMart?
Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart.

That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has
it coming.

But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time,
and here's some reasons why.

The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think.
Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more
pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This
pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the
consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's
subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)
understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint,
all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc.
This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind
of the 'consumer' works.

Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise
from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But
not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright,
as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and
closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up,
and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand

[Biofuel] Is Walmart Good For America?

2008-01-14 Thread doug swanson
Frontline did an in-depth report on this, and it's available for online 
viewing:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/view/


-- 
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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages

2008-01-14 Thread keith
LOL David!

So many comfortable assumptions, no basis, no facts. Where to start?

What exactly is so wrong with Big Box Stores?

What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of
Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result.

Not sure I understand your statement but maybe it is just a grammatical
error?

:-) Not a grammatical error. The whole community is made up of all the
local communities, no? Or don't you see it that way? The damage Big Box
Stores do is both local and systemic. It's called Big Box blight.

For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom

Bottom of what?

You don't know? All this stuff is new to you?

The bottom of what is something else you can find out about in the list
archives. If you really want to know, that is. In which case why not read
Stacy Mitchell's Big-Box Swindle while you're at it?
http://www.ilsr.org/mm5/merchant.mvc
Big Box Swindle

If the workers didn't have the job they would be in line at the
unemployment office, welfare office

The Independent among others reports that Wal-Mart is the biggest single
private employer in the United States and it pays rock-bottom wages,
which oblige thousands of its lower-end employees to resort to government
subsistence, including food stamps, to make ends meet.

So if you work for Wal-Mart you could very well be lining up at the
welfare office too, both at the same time. Meanwhile I suspect you're
subsidising Wal-Mart's wages bill with your taxes.

 or working at another job for the same wages and likely less benefits.

See, eg.:

The Costco Way - Higher wages mean higher profits. But try telling Wall
Street.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm

Costco had posted a 25 percent profit gain, as well as a 14 percent sales
hike. Yet Wall Street punished Costco's stock, driving it down 4 percent.
Why?

One problem for Wall Street is that Costco pays its workers much better
than archrival Wal-Mart Stores Inc. does, and analysts worry that Costco's
operating expenses could get out of hand. 'At Costco, it's better to be an
employee or a customer than a shareholder,' says Deutsche Bank analyst
Bill Dreher.

So much for analysts. (And comfortable assumptions.)

As for the shoppers they would be driving to half a dozen locations
wasting fuel to buy what they need and can get at one location.

Yes, that's part of the myth.

Drive, drive, drive - you keep saying it. Why don't you try removing
driving from your vocabulary and see what you get?

for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store
counters to China/wherever

How is exploitation when they are working for a paycheck? Most of the
people have no other opportunities due to mostly lack of drive and/or
education.

So it's their own fault?

Of course you can air your assumptions as much as you like, but it's gross
and wilful (yes) ignorance to blame a few billion other people for the
engineered disasters which have driven them to poverty, disasters from
which you personally benefit. You can do that somewhere else maybe, but
not here.

I don't really expect you to understand that, but rest assured it's not a
grammatical error. (If you want to know more, go to the link at the bottom
of the page.)

I said wilful ignorance: even the mainstream media in the US have covered
these issues well, there's a large amount of solid information readily
available, it's no secret unless you want it to be.

More specifically, three times you've been told to use the list's
resources, especially the archives, the last time by me, complete with
url's, and you ignored it. Why? No time, too busy?

People are usually happy to rid themselves of ignorance, but when it's the
kind of ignorance that isn't what they don't know but what they do know
that's wrong, too often they'd rather defend it no matter what.

That sure suits Wal-Mart et al, and that's why they're happy to go on
paying all those mega-billions to the opinion industry. Your head's
stuffed with manufactured opinions and you think they're your own.

Oh well. Chip did say it's an effective approach.

This is what he said (it's still down there at the end):

Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more
pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This
pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the
consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's
subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)
understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint,
all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc.
This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind
of the 'consumer' works.

Indeed.

In China and other lands around the world, I realize many issues exist
with regards to living, working and numerous other conditions, however
those countries governments are to blame not the wal-marts of the world.
The mom and pop stores sell they same products albeit at a higher 

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages

2008-01-14 Thread keith
Hi Kirk

snip (Strange though that he thought there's such a thing as a great
nation.)

Yes, I call it the myth of the state.

A false myth indeed. George Bernard Shaw said patriotism is the conviction
that your country is superior to all other countries because you were born
in it. LOL! I have to agree. It says somewhere on our website that Planet
Earth needs no flag of allegiance, but I'm beginning to wonder if Planet
Earth can even survive such an anachronistic thing as 200 national flags
of allegience for much longer, there just isn't any room for them in the
lifeboat. False flags are the only kind there is.

I guess Gandhi should be forgiven, after all he was confronting the
British Empire, on which the sun hadn't yet quite set, a daunting
prospect. Great perhaps as in mighty, bigger and stronger than you.

Regards

Keith


  Kirk


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Damn, they improved their site and broke all their links, and now even
their internal links don't work. Sorry!

I've uploaded the pics here:

http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks1.jpg
Male chicks struggle to survive
Unwanted male chicks struggle to survive amid egg shells and garbage in a
dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens.

http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks2.jpg
Dead and dying male chicks behind an egg hatchery
A dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens is filled with dead and dying
male chicks who are of no economic value to the egg industry.

From the www.factoryfarming.com site:

For every egg-laying hen confined in a battery cage, there is a male chick
who was killed at the hatchery. Because egg-laying chicken breeds have
been genetically selected exclusively for maximum egg production, they
don't grow fast or large enough to be raised profitably for meat.
Therefore, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are of no economic value, and
they are literally discarded on the day they hatch ˜ usually by the
cheapest, most convenient means available. Thrown into trash cans by the
thousands, male chicks suffocate or are crushed under the weight of
others.

Another common method of disposing of unwanted male chicks is grinding
them up alive. This can result in unspeakable horrors, as described by one
research scientist who observed that even after twenty seconds, there
were only partly damaged animals with whole skulls. In other words, fully
conscious chicks were partially ground up and left to slowly and
agonizingly die. Eyewitness accounts at commercial hatcheries indicate
similar horrors of chicks being slowly dismembered by machinery blades en
route to trash bins or manure spreaders.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/

Chicks are fully aware when they hatch, they know perfectly well what's
happening to them.

More here:
http://www.upc-online.org/chickens/chickensbro.html

The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are
treated. Mohandas Gandhi. (Strange though that he thought there's such a
thing as a great nation.)

Best

Keith


Hi Chip,

Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and
underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers.
The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying.

If they even get that far...

http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks02.htm

:-(

Keith


If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a
lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people
and more protection for the environment.

Terry Dyck Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
Fwd: Cute Video with important messages  Kirk McLoren wrote: 
Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.   
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/This film was
selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival.
Kirk McLoren wrote:


 Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.

 http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/

 This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival.

It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it.

Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just
yet still another slam against WallMart?
Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart.

That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has
it coming.

But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time,
and here's some reasons why.

The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think.
Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more
pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This
pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the
consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's
subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)
understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint,
all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc.
This 

Re: [Biofuel] For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

2008-01-14 Thread Zeke Yewdall
In Boulder, that wouldn't be a bad price per square foot...

On Jan 14, 2008 5:31 AM, Bill Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 300 seems kind small that's like 15' X 20'. A standard Mobile Home is about 
 900. Something special about this house?


 Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Subject: For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto


 http://deathby1000papercuts.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-sale-300-sq-ft-house-in-toronto.html
 For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

 They're proud of it the asking price is $179, 900.00.



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Re: [Biofuel] For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

2008-01-14 Thread Jesse Frayne
Say, in Toronto, that's a BIG house.  We're rather
small people, you know.

And just look at the landscaping possibilities!

--- Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In Boulder, that wouldn't be a bad price per square
 foot...
 
 On Jan 14, 2008 5:31 AM, Bill Ellis
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  300 seems kind small that's like 15' X 20'. A
 standard Mobile Home is about 900. Something special
 about this house?
 
 
  Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Subject: For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto
 
 
 

http://deathby1000papercuts.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-sale-300-sq-ft-house-in-toronto.html
  For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto
 
  They're proud of it the asking price is $179,
 900.00.
 
 
 
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 archives (70,000 messages):
 

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Re: [Biofuel] For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto

2008-01-14 Thread Bob Molloy
Why would anyone, including Torontoans, want to live in Toronto?
Bob.

- Original Message -
From: Jesse Frayne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto


 Say, in Toronto, that's a BIG house.  We're rather
 small people, you know.

 And just look at the landscaping possibilities!

 --- Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In Boulder, that wouldn't be a bad price per square
  foot...
 
  On Jan 14, 2008 5:31 AM, Bill Ellis
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   300 seems kind small that's like 15' X 20'. A
  standard Mobile Home is about 900. Something special
  about this house?
  
  
   Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   Subject: For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto
  
  
  
 

http://deathby1000papercuts.blogspot.com/2008/01/for-sale-300-sq-ft-house-in
-toronto.html
   For Sale: 300 Sq. Ft. House in Toronto
  
   They're proud of it the asking price is $179,
  900.00.
  
  
  
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   Wildbill
   Sutton.VT
  
  
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 Jesse Frayne
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