Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: humanure to humus
kind of mixed messages so far, for Tom. Yes, humanure composting is frowned on in many jurisdictions, for public health standards reasons, but those reg's. are usually applicable to whole communities, not individuals with closed-system applications, especially rural land-owners. The time-frame seems unusually short also -- a long-running neighborhood feud coming to a head? Given the time constraint, sounds like Tom needs a shark lawyer -- ACLU, perhaps? -- to protect his rights from gov't. harrassment (on whose behalf?). Tom, is your property in the path of some development or right-of-way? On composting, Rodale Press published numerous tomes some years back with good data -- JtF archives probably has a wealth also, more recent as well. Can you modify to meet standards in time, without spending an arm and leg? Might have to install flush system (unless they're going to surveil your bathrooms, how do they prove you ain't using it?) Go guerilla -- but keep your head down awhile (have you been bragging to neighbors?). Remember -- palm trees bend to ground-level horizontal when a hurricane blows through, then stand back up when it's past. :-)~ Good luck, E.A.C. --- Frank Navarrete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In Florida, there is an extension service provided by the University of Florida which provides all kinds of information on farming and agriculture to the general public. Does the local university have a program like that in your area? If so, they can probably provide plenty of scientific evidence in your favor, especially if you can find a professor who is willing to help you. Can the health dept. really prove it's human anyhow? On 12/22/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone help Tom? He's not a list member, but I'll refer him to any discussions here. Thanks! All best Keith From: tom habasco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: humanure to humus Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 Hello my name is Tom Habasco and I will be going into circuit court in order to defend my right to compost. I am the 5th generation of organic farming family.We have known of the benefits of this for many decades. Unfortunately the local health people tell me it is illegal for me to compost humanure, as it is explained by Joseph Jenkins in his book.Now they have a signed order which makes my home and lifestyle illegal . They say that there is no scientific proof that composting humanure works or that it is safe. I personally have been growing fruits and veggie's for the plate to eat for many years. In my defense I must say I have never become ill from my gardens. I have no illness whatsoever and take no medication for anything. How do we convince these youngsters at the so called health dept's that composting is safe and a much better approach to our handling of the environment than there septic approach? I need proof and support that you may have to fight for my right to own property live on that property, farm my small gardens under half acre of gardens and compost including humanure.If I fail at this I will be ordered off my property and my home will be moved away by them at my cost. This is not an option , that is why it is of the utmost importance that I seek help from like minded people like you to help[ support me and my decision to make a lifestyle change and help the earth by becoming less dependant on fossil fuels like oil. Thank you for your time, if you can please respond before Jan 3 2007, ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Great Fence of America
the fence being built on the Mexican border is partial, so it does neither (in or out); it is a sop to the rethug base -- providing construction graft to corporatocrat pals like Haliburton (as with the huge, mostly-secret prison-camps/towns also being ignored by MsM). The one on the Canadian border is a paper/convenience fence, since it's harder to tell Canucks from WASPs by skin color or language. The net result of both (as with many policies of the illegal administration in DC) is hardship payment imposed on the non-affluent 98% of the population (US) to continue the wealth-accumulation of the 2%. Amerika is a broken dream-turned-nightmare that is likely only to be awakened from by Gaia's Revenge (coming soon to a giant flat-screen multiplex near us all). E.A.C. --- Fred Oliff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Who gets riich when they build this new fence? And is there going to be one on the northern borders as well? Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep people/animals out? Just asking... I thought Al Gore's comment in An Inconvenient Truth about terrorism vs the environment (and I cannot recall the exact words), was very telling of the present plight we all face. Which, after all, is easier to fix? Admitting there is a problem (has been difficult), awareness that there is a problem is easy (maybe not AS easy) but taking action (on the environment) is just not very popular. No video games were made/sold in the resolution of global climate change (warming). two cents - From: JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:19:42 -0700 I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom? And why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health care. On another beat, what was that saying on the statue of liberty? I wonder if that will have to be revisited concerning our new fence in the south.? Jim From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:50 -0600 universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for his/her self. JAMES PHELPS wrote: Wow thatÂ’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and Iceland do so well coming from the free world? - Original Message - *From:* bob allen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax Kirk McLoren wrote: We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The corporations sell us on frredom yet the infant mortality in Belize is better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live elsewhere. Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and weep. I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and some Asian countries but ahead of most poorer countries. (36th on a list at http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm) see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html for example Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.) Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leo, Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not, I not qualified to say. Peace, D. Mindock 11/23/2006 *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax* /by Richard J. Marbury/ snip Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country where we can have them. snip It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free market that they actually
Re: [Biofuel] CITCO Joe Oil
from what i remember from last winter (AM sources -- MsM gave the usual bushCo spin: subversive/terrorist political act), the discount was from the state-owned oil driller in Venezuela, on proviso it was authentically passed on intact to Citgo-served low-income retail heating-oil customers. The rest of Citgo product line customers was unaffected, was/is approx. 2cpgUS above prevailing market average. Fair enough -- i've switched my gasoline purchases to Citgo (tho i could probably qualify for HO discount, i don't use dino products directly for heating). E.A.C. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think will be the mark-up of the distributors in distributing this 40% off oil from Venezuela? After all no good deed goes un-profited. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] CITCO Joe Oil The devil was put at bay perhaps. Jim From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] CITCO Joe Oil Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:14:20 -0500 Hello All, I just saw part of a commercial on TV; major NY (USA) station. Nobody should be left out in the cold It showed the CITGO insignia on an oil delivery truck . Mother and daughter in a cold apartment Hi, I'm Joe Kennedy... Thanks to the good people of Venezuela you can get heating oil at 40% off. Call me (phone #) at Joe's Oil. Anybody know about this? I remember discussion about Venezuala's offer to supply heating oil at reduced rates to families in need, last winter, but it seemed to be shot down. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Environmentalists Call for Freeze on Green House Gas-Producing
I think it's him -- i got the same, a blank page --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Environmentalists Call forFreeze on Green House Gas-Producing Chemicals http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1163418656 Nothing there. :-( Is it me or you? Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Sponsored Link Compare mortgage rates for today. Get up to 5 free quotes. Www2.nextag.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A textbook definition of cowardice
maybe pulled from MsM (don't know, don't watch, especially FauxNews) -- but it's all over the blogosphere, even HuffPost -- just 1/2 hr ago i watched And read the unexpurgated original version on Truthout.org. Keith Olberman nailed it, as usual -- must be something special (in the genes, maybe?) about Keiths! ;-)~ Peace, Love, and NO MORE WARS! E. Allen C. --- D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw the interview where Fox News tried to sandbag Clinton, but he threw it all back in the interviewer's face. Now it seems that interview has been pulled from online access. Wonder why? Peace, D. Mindock A textbook definition of cowardice Keith Olbermann comments on Bill Clinton's Fox News interview SPECIAL COMMENT By Keith Olbermann Anchor, 'Countdown' MSNBC Updated: 7:29 p.m. CT Sept 25, 2006 The headlines about them are, of course, entirely wrong. It is not essential that a past president, bullied and sandbagged by a monkey posing as a newscaster, finally lashed back. It is not important that the current President's portable public chorus has described his predecessor's tone as crazed. Our tone should be crazed. The nation's freedoms are under assault by an administration whose policies can do us as much damage as al Qaida; the nation's marketplace of ideas is being poisoned by a propaganda company so blatant that Tokyo Rose would've quit. Nonetheless. The headline is this: Bill Clinton did what almost none of us have done in five years. He has spoken the truth about 9/11, and the current presidential administration. At least I tried, he said of his own efforts to capture or kill Osama bin Laden. That's the difference in me and some, including all of the right-wingers who are attacking me now. They had eight months to try; they did not try. I tried. Thus in his supposed emeritus years has Mr. Clinton taken forceful and triumphant action for honesty, and for us; action as vital and as courageous as any of his presidency; action as startling and as liberating, as any, by any one, in these last five long years. The Bush Administration did not try to get Osama bin Laden before 9/11. The Bush Administration ignored all the evidence gathered by its predecessors. The Bush Administration did not understand the Daily Briefing entitled Bin Laden Determined To Strike in U.S. The Bush Administration did not try. Moreover, for the last five years one month and two weeks, the current administration, and in particular the President, has been given the greatest pass for incompetence and malfeasance in American history! President Roosevelt was rightly blamed for ignoring the warning signs-some of them, 17 years old-before Pearl Harbor. President Hoover was correctly blamed for-if not the Great Depression itself-then the disastrous economic steps he took in the immediate aftermath of the Stock Market Crash. Even President Lincoln assumed some measure of responsibility for the Civil War-though talk of Southern secession had begun as early as 1832. But not this president. To hear him bleat and whine and bully at nearly every opportunity, one would think someone else had been president on September 11th, 2001 -- or the nearly eight months that preceded it. That hardly reflects the honesty nor manliness we expect of the executive. But if his own fitness to serve is of no true concern to him, perhaps we should simply sigh and keep our fingers crossed, until a grown-up takes the job three Januarys from now. Except for this. After five years of skirting even the most inarguable of facts-that he was president on 9/11 and he must bear some responsibility for his, and our, unreadiness, Mr. Bush has now moved, unmistakably and without conscience or shame, towards re-writing history, and attempting to make the responsibility, entirely Mr. Clinton's. Of course he is not honest enough to do that directly. As with all the other nefariousness and slime of this, our worst presidency since James Buchanan, he is having it done for him, by proxy. Thus, the sandbag effort by Fox News Friday afternoon. Consider the timing: the very weekend the National Intelligence Estimate would be released and show the Iraq war to be the fraudulent failure it is-not a check on terror, but fertilizer for it. The kind of proof of incompetence, for which the administration and its hyenas at Fox need to find a diversion, in a scapegoat. It was the kind of cheap trick which would get a journalist fired-but a propagandist, promoted: Promise to talk of charity and generosity; but instead launch into the lies and distortions with which the Authoritarians among us attack the virtuous and reward the useless. And don't even be professional enough to assume the responsibility for the slanders yourself; blame your audience for
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: No wonder Jesus told them their father was a murderer from the beginning
i'll throw one: IMPEACH! not the first, by any stretch -- but a mountain is a pile of stones -- there are those who think we can safely stash DU in a mountain for a million years -- bushCo will be but a blink in History's eye in a hundred, unless we fail to stop them NOW! E. Allen C. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and what can be done with this information who wants to throw the first stone -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 9:16 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Fwd: No wonder Jesus told them their father was a murderer from the beginning War crime. -Kirk No wonder Jesus told them their father was a murderer from the beginning UN says Israeli overuse of cluster bombs in Lebanon 'defies belief' This is barbarism that no one can deny even those who support Israel Quote IMEMC Agencies - Wednesday, 20 September 2006, 03:24 Following on a statement by an Israeli commander that the Israeli army fired at least 1.2 million cluster bomblets on Lebanon during the war, the majority of which were fired when hostilities were largely over, the United Nations humanitarian coordinator verified that number and harshly criticized the Israeli use of cluster bombs. The outrageous fact is that nearly all of these munitions were fired in the last three to four days of the war, David Shearer, the United Nations (UN) humanitarian coordinator in Lebanon, told a news conference in Beirut Tuesday. The United Nations coordinator added, Most bomblets were fired by the time the conflict had been largely resolved in the form of Resolution 1701, adding, We know these (cluster) munitions have a failure rate and it seems to me extraordinary that they were fired off in the last hours of the war into areas where civilian populations were known to be going, Shearer said. For a humanitarian person, it defies belief that this would happen. Meanwhile, UN Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland has called Israel completely immoral for using cluster bombs in residential areas. Shearer, the UN humanitarian coordinator, said that Israeli authorities have not given any explanation as to why they fired so many cluster bombs just as the war was clearly drawing to a close, nor have they responded to a UN Request for the map coordinates of the cluster bomb strikes to hasten clearance efforts. It is estimated that 30-40% of the cluster bombs which were fired by Israel failed to explode on impact, and remain a tremendous hazard for civilians who have returned home. Since the war's end, at least 15 civilians have been killed in encounters with unexploded cluster bombs, and 83 wounded, of whom 23 are children. Only about 17,000 of the unexploded bomblets have been defused so far, and the United Nations says it could take up to 30 months to destroy most of the unexploded sub-munitions. The British-based LandMine Action group has said clearing the south could take a decade. Clearance efforts have so far focused on villages, schools and playing areas, but will soon shift towards farmland, which provides 70 percent of household incomes in the south, said Shearer. The cluster munitions are stopping farmers from getting out to their fields and resuming their farming activities, he said. The statements from the United Nations officials verified the statement of the Israeli commander who resigned last week, who said at that time that the army he commanded had covered towns with cluster bombs, admitting what we did is insane and monstrous. Over 1,000 civilians were killed during the 34-day Israeli invasion of Lebanon in July, many of them by U.S.-supplied cluster bombs fired by the Israeli military. Why keep checking for Mail? The all-new Yahoo! Mail shows you when there are new messages. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Disney
Jason :) try http:www.truthout.org lots more of activists real journalists (even from MsM, like Keith Olderman of MSNBC [this one a previous bite]), an extensive Video archive well worth subscribing to. (it's free) E. Allen C. --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the title is appropriate... how in the hell did this get on the air without being stifled? i love it! SHOW ME MORE! Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have not forgotten, Mr. President, you have. http://www.thepoorman.net/2006/09/11/holy-fucking-crap/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now the first choice
LOL! ... the Mike(s) aren't the only ones -- but Jason, you left out another essential: a pepper-shaker! LOL Seriously, tho -- I agree whole-heartedly, as we strive to look backward into the future, keeping foremost in our minds the slogan of sustainability: LESS IS MORE LESS, BUT BETTER Namaste, E. Allen C. --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i dont really understand why genetically engineered food became popular anyway, why didnt they just do it like farmers have for centuries and breed their plants by hand. even Darwin did it on the HMS Beagle and all it took was a pair of tweezers (dont laugh Mike(s) i know your perverted minds work well together) Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:21 PM Subject: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now the first choice http://www.gmwatch.org/print-archive2.asp?arcid=6668 GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now the first choice (21/6/2006) The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET), founded by the economist Jeremy Rifkin, who has highlighted the dangers of genetic engineering since the early 1980s, has recently completed a white paper on the next generation of biotech agriculture, called Marker Assisted Selection (MAS). Rifkin, like many others, is convinced that MAS has eclipsed genetic engineering in its potential and that GE is a failed technology whose limitations are hotly denied by corporate-friendly scientists and the entrenched interests they represent. Rifkin's FET sees its position paper as opening up a new conversation in the debate surrounding GM food. Those boiotech proponents wedded to an already outmoded vision of the future of agriculture, centered on GE and patents, can be relied upon to do their damndest to try and drown out that conversation. EXCERPTS: ...new cutting edge technologies have made gene splicing and transgenic crops obsolete and a serious impediment to scientific progress. The new frontier is called genomics and the new agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted Selection, or MAS. Wally Beversdorf, former vice president of plant science research at Syngenta, candidly admitted that although the company was still engaged in GM technology, marker assisted selection is the first choice now in the company's research priorities. European Environmental Commissioner Stavros Dimas raised the question of [GM] contamination of plant varieties and loss of biodiversity in a speech to environmental ministers of the 25 EU member states on April 5, 2006. Dimas told his colleagues that GMO products raise a whole new series of possible risks to the environment, notably potential long term effects that could impact on biodiversity. Dimas said he was particularly concerned about loss of biodiversity because of the vast potential afforded by the new MAS technology... Dimas noted that MAS technology is attracting considerable attention and said that the European Union should not ignore the use of 'upgraded' conventional varieties as an alternative to GM crops. --- http://www.foet.org/FETSupportStatementonMAS.pdf The Foundation on Economic Trends (FET) Statement of Support for Genomics Research and Marker Assisted Selection Technology within the Context of a Broader, More Holistic, Agroecological Approach to Farming For years, the life science companies - Monsanto, Syngenta, Bayer, Pioneer, etc. - have argued that GM food is the next great scientific and technological revolution in agriculture, and the only efficient and cheap way to feed a growing population in a shrinking world. Non-governmental organizations (NGOs), including my own, The Foundation on Economic Trends, have been cast as the villains in this unfolding agricultural drama, and often categorized as modern versions of the English Luddites, accused of continually blocking scientific and technological progress because of their opposition to GM food. Now, new cutting edge technologies have made gene splicing and transgenic crops obsolete and a serious impediment to scientific progress. The new frontier is called genomics and the new agricultural technology is called Marker Assisted Selection, or MAS. The new technology offers a sophisticated, new method to greatly accelerate classical breeding. A growing number of scientists believe that MAS - which is already being introduced into the market - will eventually replace GM food. Scientists are mapping and sequencing the genomes of major crop species and using the findings to create a new approach to advancing agricultural technology. Instead of using molecular splicing techniques to transfer a gene from an unrelated species into the genome of a food crop to increase yield, resist pests, or improve nutrition, scientists are now
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Doug; your meaning was crystal clear to me, i am an English major (more precisely, was, since i never followed the career path i trained for in college). In point of fact, your response said what i tried to, but more succinctly to the point. Kudos. :-)~ Kirk; I looked back in my archived file to see if your nit-pick was justified, didn't find it so, IMHO -- but hey, to err is human, i've been called on gaffes i've made before. Since you brought it up (the ET comment) -- a couple i know has acquainted me with the fact that there's a fair number of folks who fervently believe that, indeed, the human species IS descended from cross-breeding between early hominids and ET visitors from space (there being no clearly-defined missing link in the fossil record). True or not, we humans are a relatively new experiment in Earth's evolution -- and may not have a very long chapter in that history if we don't learn to overcome our aggressive, egocentric management style. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk, The reason I bothered to post was to detail why I believe seasonal burning, while it may have apparent benefits, is not natural, as practiced by man. I would think the last sentence of mine; Personally I think man has interfered enough, long enough, we can't fully understand the role of fire in Earth's evolution. would have indicated my opinion man can affect the environment, thus perhaps evolution? Oh well English composition has never been my strong suit Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA Kirk McLoren wrote: Interesting that you dont see man as part of earth's evolution. Are we ETs? Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hello and Question
Hello Joe (Maybe i should say Joe J., as there's at
least one other [ very-knowledgable] Joe {Street} who
often contributes here)
Welcome, from another newbie (been avidly reading
occasionally commenting/questioning for less than a
year).
First off, let me say you are now on probably THE
Premier discussion forum/site re issues of sustainable
practices on the Web! (Like you, i'm also on other
lists) -- I find this the fairest, most balanced, most
reasonably-moderated List of all I'm aware of. My
interests go 'way beyond just bio-diesel, or even
just Bio-fuel, yet i almost always find sane,
sensible, usable information on whatever topic
related to finding a way out of the morass our poor
planet is in. Welcome, indeed.
To your questions:
I'm in Florida, so can't help with specifics about
Maryland -- but I'll bet you'll find them here. The
best i can advise in that regard is - hook up with a
home-brewing bio-diesel enthusiast near you who's
following the advice found here AND on Journey to
Forever -- and in the meantime, spend lots of time in
the Archives (and probably become such an enthusiast
yourself)... it will be time well spent!
The question about the (78% figure) is a Huge bone of
contention between advocates of BAU [business as
usual] OTB thinkers [outside the box]. The issue is
usually discussed in economic terms (cost/benefit
analysis) -- and in just that framework, it is now
too close to call. But there is a larger paradigm
at work, here: global survivability. If it were
purely an economic issue, it would be resolved by the
BAU folks as the statistics change -- God only knows
how many wars, genocides, ecological disasters, failed
states, etc., etc. that may entail (including, BTW,
our own US economy, others of the First World).
Right now, the BAU folks are having it all their way
-- they have the deepest pockets -- they can train
employ the most best brains (tho not ALL the best
brightest - thank whatever God you choose).
The evidence is mounting exponentially (and it's
already insurmountable) that BAU is destroying the
only planet we have to live on -- we HAVE to get OTB,
think of Sustainability, if we want to leave a
planet for our grandchildren to live on. The best
scientists ( i mean True Scientists, who seek serve
only Truth, irrespective of funding sources) give us
anywhere from 10 to 100 years in which to solve this
Sustainability issue, or else -- with growing
consensus on a shorter time-frame. Or else -- we
won't be able to. Period.
In this context, the debate over (78%) is irrelevant.
By way of example (from one tiny slice of the
paradigm): it takes about 10 years to build make
operational a new dam, or power-generating plant, to
serve a hugely-wasteful grid of delivery (whatever the
source of generation -- oil, coal, uranium, biomass,
even water-flow or sunlight). Once up running, such
a system reaches economic viability (break-even, in
cost/benefit analysis) in another 10 - 30 years, can
then be expected to continue feeding the bottom line
for another 40 - 90 years. And you can bet your own
or grandma's eyes teeth that, given the huge capital
investment, the BAU folks will insist (with all their
deep-pocket might) that the system (including the grid
it feeds) will continue in use.
Sustainable? Hah! (But you already know all that, if
you get info from Alternative Media sources -- the MsM
[mainstream media, corporately owned controlled]
does their best to lull you into compliance with BAU
objectives, since they are part of that structure).
The same exam can be applied to the
Auto/truck/rail/highway/fuel consortium. And others.
Please forgive me -- i rant. To be more specific to
your honest, earnest question: the difference between
biomass-derived fuels (there are many kinds, as you'll
discover here) and fossil fuels (also many) is that
fossil fuels come from materials stored eons ago in
the Earth, while bio-mass fuels come from living
(recently) plant systems. Extraction of energy from
bio-mass is relatively ecologically neutral (tho there
are worlds of differences in how we extract said
energy -- and in how the bio-mass is grown) -- fossil
fuels take substances that WERE stored safely (in
terms of eco-systems) out of interaction with the
environment we have to live in, and puts those
substances into the (current) environment. We have
done this for so long, are doing so (using fossil
fuels) so profligately now that we are dangerously
close to changing our environment to one in which we
(and many other life-forms) cannot survive. That's
the Real bottom line. The discussion about (the 78%)
comes down to how best to change from destroying our
planet (welll-l, not quite: Earth is older than Life,
and will continue in orbit with or without Life as we
know it). I leave to experts (there are many on this
List) how best to go about that. Bio-fuels, even if
slightly less economically cost-effective (tho, as i
said earlier, that question's a
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Interesting, Kirk Have you researched that name (i haven't), found that it applied because the Native Americans control-burned the forests that covered the mountain slopes? If so, to what purpose? I find that notion a bit of a stretch, in light of what i've read learned about Native Americans' deep respect -- yes, reverence, even -- for the Earth its natural inhabitants, plant and animal. Might it (the name) be more likely derived from observation of the natural phenomenon of the atmospheric inversion that made L.A. the smog capital of the world even before today's obscene paved parking lot? No disrespect for L.A., which millions regard as a vibrant, culturally-diverse progressive community of communities -- but in the context of millions of acres of managed forest lands, that valley IS pretty miniscule, even if ancient Native Americans did similarly manage timber there. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C) --- Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes Kirk E. C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: whooee Jason or Katie, et al; what a gigantic can-o'-worms y'all have opened there! -- none suitable for vermiculture, either. ;-) Controlled burning has been common since settlers invaded Native American's homelands (yes, they also used the practice, but on a miniscule scale). Until perhaps the last couple decades, it was considered sound science, especially by Big Lumber eager human habitat developers -- still is, in mostly-denialist quarters. Only recently has science caught up with what we all know, instinctively: Ma Nature knows best how to handle eco-systems and, in the short term (thinking in multiple millenia), can be pretty unforgiving of species (like humans) who refuse to recognise that maxim. Unfortunately, because we (humans) have become so ubiquitious, prolific, bellicose, we face the possibility of taking many, many species with us into oblivion (California Condors, Polar Bears, Amazon ( other)Frogs, Butterflies Penguins are just the tip of a melting iceberg). Earnest regards, Allen --- mark manchester wrote: I feel this is wrong thinking also. The California Condor population deserves respect too. Jesse From: Kirk McLoren Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning The really sad thing about stopping the burns - in fact the native Americans used to do burns- was the filling of whole areas with brush that used to have grass, The California Condor population was decimated by the brush. They could not take off near brush and hunting grounds disappeared. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] seasonal burning
Thank you, Robert (or Benita) Your response came in (here) as I was writing mine. As usual, yours is more complete and authoritative than my poor efforts -- but we reached the same conclusions. Namaste, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: Not so miniscule The native American name for where Los Angeles is now was Valley of the smokes But that's not because they were engaged in wholesale burning, but because the subtropical inversion, off-gassing native plant life, petroleum offgassing, surrounding mountains and marine onflow mingled with smoke from their campfires to create naturally hazy conditions. Even if humans stopped all their industrial and automotive activities in the basin, there would be a handful of days during the year with poor air quality. While the topography, climate and chaparral flora all contribute to the issue, Los Angeles suffers from smog more often than not because WE pollute the air. Although it's better now than it was when I was a child, it's still disgusting, and the forests that used to cover the mountains around the city have been steadily dying off. (There are far fewer trees now than I remember when growing up in the area.) Even along the coast, however, airborne pollutants that travel over the Pacific from Asia contribute to the problem. Air pollution has become a global issue. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Atleast someone is willing to make a commitment
Zeke, Kenny; sometimes, here on the List, we forget that we're mostly preaching to the choir, there's a whole raft of folks paddling frantically in all directions to get away from the Titanic (unless they're standing on the aft deck by choice). In Lancaster, PA that paper is part of the MM (mainstream media), getting a positive article about Biodiesel published there is a HUGE step -- if you had a part in accomplishing that, Kenny: Kudos to you! Zeke: a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step -- wasn't that Gandhi, or Buddha, or someone equally influential? Namaste, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/1/06, Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: B20 is a big step I admit, but how about B100? I agree but, one big step is better than lying in the fetal position. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar/question??
Marylynn; By way of explanation, one word: control. For clarification, add one more word: corporate control. And to refine that to bring in reality, tweak that: corporatocracy -- the system we live under. The same notion driving NAIS, and NSA databases, and ANWAR drilling, and a massively unpopular war, etc., etc.. Not massive chunks, unless you pursue the implications. Follow the money. Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a post from another list that has me confused. I trust the source so I pay attention but can not understand any possible reasoning here. There are several old/closed gold mines in the U.S. that still have good veins with rich to very rich ore in these veins .. and the veins are substantial and could be easily mined. Apparently they are plentiful enough. These areas with closed mines are not available for purchase and/or lease unless the purchase reason is altered .. which is being done. When a property is obtained and gold has been mined .. and mining activities have become known .. the owners are visited by federals (unidentified) telling them they need to close down because their activity threatens the economy. This plus enough scare tactics seems to have caused this whole thing to become a bit more quietly approached. I have no other information I would be willing to offer other than, because of the source, I believe this is actually happening. .. any other information I have is extremely limited. And, while I believe it's true, I find it beyond my reasoning and/or ability to understand. I know I'm missing massive chunks of information here so I have no information links to connect it. So, pretending that's it's true .. Is there anyone who could possibly shed some light on this. What possible reason could there be? Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Republican / Conservative ??
Marylynn; Hooray! You got it -- and get it! :-)~ Now look up PNAC, see where that takes you. :-(~ Namaste, Allen --- Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not sure where the link came from but it suggested doing some research into the EXACT meaning of the term Neo-Conservative. The White House does refer to themselves as Neo-Conservative and I .. for one .. never bothered to try to understand exactly what that was. I have been reading everything google has to offer .. plus a few other search engines .. and it's not very pretty. .. in reality .. George W. Bush has never lied to us. He told us up front what he was. The noise you hear is my hand slapping my head!! Mary Lynn Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity . The Animal Connection Healing Modalities http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/ http://allcreatureconnections.org ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Hey Mike; What Katrina did to New Orleans wasn't an ecological disaster? The Corps. saw that coming 30 years ago, but it suited the suits in Big Oil corp. suites to let it happen, for the good of the dynamic economy -- as we're finally beginning to realise, there's more to dynamism than bottom lines. As for our once-vaunted legal system, who besides hapless grunts has paid the price for Abu Graibe, what about the latest Supreme Court ruling its effect on journalists -- predictable since the addition of Roberts Alito ?? -- the challenge to Roe v. Wade is wending its way their way. Ahhh, but for the spin of it, we can take a Terry Schiavo case all the way (not to mention a national election!) Regards, Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I didn't say that. Nor would I. I said the US has a dynamic economy. Our infrastructure is beginning to fall apart; the highway system is crumbling; the electrical grid is shaky; we have no energy policy...the list goes on. But it it better than the systems in most of the world, except Western Europe. There is a functioning legal system, something I think you'd be hard-pressed to claim about China and to some degree India. Our corruption is better managed and on a grander scale - Halliburton. But you don't have to pay a bribe to get driver's license or cross a bridge or open a business. Would you rather own stock in Exxon or Cnooc? Well, figuratively, I wouldn't own oil stocks personally, but one has reasonably open books, and putatively complies with Sarbanes-Oxley, and one can be manipulated at the will of the government. Despite the best efforts of the current administration, our pollution levels are nothing like that of China or India, and the days of major ecological disasters like the Three Gorges Dam are passed. Transparency has suffered mightily under Bush, but Transparency International still rates the US well above China and India. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote: snip Also, say what you want about the US but it is still by far the most dynamic economy in the world. China and India still have significant infrastructure, corruption, pollution and transparency issues to overcome. snip And US have none of those problems? LOL Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS
some serious historian correct me if i'm 'way off -- but i think AH's use of The Reich was a sop to German nationalism, or empires (ironic, since he was not of German extraction himself, until he so decreed). This is not meant as a slur on today's Germany [ we USA'ans have NO business casting stones, anyway -- suffering in shameful acquiescence under the yoke of the shrub/chainey/rummy PNAC cabal AND our own horrific history]. The comparison to AH's methodology is Very accurate -- deeply disturbing. Regards Allen (E. Allen C.) --- Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: wouldnt this be the 4th? i mean AH did finally fail, so the shrub would be the 4th. - Original Message - From: DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS I always thought a good shirt would read: Secret Prisons, Cost: 1 Billion Dollars Illegally Kidnapping Foreign Citizens, Cost: 10 Billion Dollars Illegally Spying on Your Citizens, Cost: 20 Billion Transforming the US into the Third Reich: Priceless There are some things money can buy, for everything else there's Dick, Donald, and Dubya. On Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:06 AM, Joe Street wrote: Actually I know this is a bit of a joke but I bought some t-shirts lately. One is a hoody with a silhouette of the shrub and a swastika on his forehead and the caption 'WAR CRIMINAL' another has a pic of the shrub and the caption INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST as well as the Dick is a killer t-shirt I mentioned before. I work in an educational institution so I have to be serious about the impression I make on young minds. I wear these shirts as often as possible. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.1/347 - Release Date: 5/24/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS
Adolph Hitler -- at the risk of making it onto the NSA's master database -- but then, i've used PNAC cabal in the same sentence, too. Aarrgh! :-)~ E. Allen C. --- DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who is AH? I don't catch your reference? On Thursday, May 25, 2006 4:13 PM, Jason Katie wrote: wouldnt this be the 4th? i mean AH did finally fail, so the shrub would be the 4th. I always thought a good shirt would read: Secret Prisons, Cost: 1 Billion Dollars Illegally Kidnapping Foreign Citizens, Cost: 10 Billion Dollars Illegally Spying on Your Citizens, Cost: 20 Billion Transforming the US into the Third Reich: Priceless There are some things money can buy, for everything else there's Dick, Donald, and Dubya. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bad Stuff is Happening With Chile's Water
Thanks, Joe; by their counter, that site should hit their target # of signatures today. :-)~ only problem i see is that it appears the PetitionSite petition will go to some flunky @ Barricks, rather than to the Chilean gov't. -- so Andrew's link may still be more appropos. Cheers Peace E. Allen C. --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew and all; Probably better to go here; http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/946839131?ltl=1148474564 If you want to take action on this (and I hope you do) Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: Dear friends who care about our earth. Judge for yourself if you want to take action. In the Valle de San Felix, the purest water in Chile runs from 2 rivers, fed by 2 glaciers. Water is a most precious resource, and wars will be fought for it. Indigenous farmers use the water, there is no unemployment, and they provide the second largest source of income for the area. Under the glaciers has been found a huge deposit of gold, silver andother minerals. To get at these, it would be necessary to break, to destroy the glaciers - something never conceived of in the history of the world - and to make 2 huge holes, each as big as a whole mountain, one for extraction and one for the mine's rubbish tip. The project is called PASCUA LAMA. The company is called Barrick Gold. The operation is planned by a multi-national company, one of whose members is George Bush Sr. The Chilean Government has approved the project to start this year, 2006. The only reason it hasn't started yet is because the farmers have got a temporary stay of execution. If they destroy the glaciers, they will not just destroy the source of especially pure water, but they will permanently contaminate the 2 rivers so they will never again be fit for human or animal consumption because of the use of cyanide and sulphuric acid in the extraction process. Every last gram of gold will go abroad to the multinational company and not one will be left with the people whose land it is. They will only be left with the poisoned water and the resulting illnesses. The farmers have been fighting a long time for their land, but have been forbidden to make a TV appeal by a ban from the Ministry of the Interior. Their only hope now of putting brakes on this project is to get help from international justice. The world must know what is happening in Chile. The only place to start changing the world is from here. We ask you to circulate this message amongst your friends in the following way. Please copy this text, paste it into a new email adding your signature and send it to everyone in your address book. Please, will the 100th person to receive and sign the petition, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to be forwarded to the Chilean Government. No to Pascua Lama Open-cast mine in the Andean Cordillera on the Chilean-Argentine frontier. We ask the Chilean Government not to authorize the Pascua Lama project to protect the whole of 3 glaciers, the purity of the water of the San Felix Valley and El Transito, the quality of the agricultural land of the region of Atacama, the quality of life of the Diaguita people and of the whole population of the region. Signature, City, Country 1) Katharine Proudfoot, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK 2) Laura Cole, London, UK 3) David Platt, London, UK 4) Diane Platt, Manchester, UK 5) Tanya Corker, Manchester, UK 6) Nicola Hargreaves, UK 7) Nicholas Jones, UK 8) Johann Don-Daniel, Germany 9) Ashley Berger, Germany 10) Sarah Downie, Leeds, UK 11) Paula Delahunty, Bingley, UK 12) John O'Driscoll, Bingley, Uk 13) Jordan-Lee Delahunty, Bingley, UK 14) Claire Mulvey, Bradford, UK 15) Marie Malcolm Bradford, UK 16) Ann Clowes, Halifax UK 17) Jayne McGee, Brighouse UK 18) Jason Barratt Oldham UK 19) Lindsay Torrance, Rochdale UK 20) Maggie Ford, Rochdale, U.K. 21) Barry Cook, Todmorden, U.K. 22) Shelley Burgoyne, Todmorden, U.K. 23) Lisa Stuart, Potes, Spain. 24) Michael Stuart, Potes, Spain. 25) Renee Engl, Byron Bay, Australia 26) Adrian Begg, Brunswick Heads, Australia 27) Riana Begg, Brunswick Heads, Australia 28) Oriel Paterson, Brunswick Heads, Australia 29) Alicia Paterson, Brisbane, Australia 30) Lyneve Robinson, Sydney, Australia 31) Jennifer Moalem, Sydney, Australia 32) Alexandra Pope, Sydney Australia 33) Shushann Movsessian, Sydney Australia 34) Amanda Frost 35) Chris Liddell, AUS 36) Jade Deegan, AUS 37) Jo Satori, AUS 38) Jennie Gorman, Vic AUS 39) Angelique Queensley, Victoria, Can 40)Chrystyanna Queensley, Victoria, Can 41) Dawna Masters, San Miguel De Allende, Mex. 42) John Gillespie, Canada 43) Ross Andersen, Canada 44) Devaki Thomas 45) Andrew Riley Mott, Victoria, Canada
Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
Hi John; He didn't -- just like he didn't get elected the 1st time -- used Diebold other chicanery in Ohio the 2nd time (even Karl was smart enuf not to do the deed in his brother's state again). That poll standing is about where Nixon's was the night before he resigned, facing certain impeachment, isn't it? Regards E. Allen C. --- John Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone please remind me, because I forget... How the hell did Bush get re-elected?? Question for all of you who do not live in the United States: Do people in your area think that the US people support President Bush? Do those people realize that President Bush has an approval rating of 29%? I'm from Boston, Massachusetts, and darn it, I don't think I know anyone who would admit to voting for Bush in 2004 or who, when asked, would say that they would vote for Bush right now. Just wondering, -John On May 23, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: The Senate voted to make English the national language of the United States. The vote drew protests from several immigrant groups and one governor of California. --Conan O'Brien Even though it's a little bit controversial, President Bush supports the effort to make English our national language. The president says making English our national language is not 'discriminatious.' --Conan O'Brien The Pentagon announced today that Iraq’s border is now 90% under control, which is pretty impressive when you realize San Diego's border is only 20% under control. --Jay Leno As you know, the National Guard stands by, ready to go into action any time the president of the United States feels there's a big enough of a disaster, like a major earthquake, a huge flood, a 29% approval rating. Any one of those things could trigger movement. --Jay Leno He went to a border town in Arizona yesterday. ... But, White House spokesman Tony Snow said it was not just a photo opportunity. No sirry Bob. Apparently, President Bush went down there looking for some guys about landscaping at the White House. --Jay Leno President Bush is pretty serious about this enforcement thing. In fact, before he left the border, he put up a scarecrow of Dick Cheney with a shotgun. --Jay Leno President Bush said today he has nothing but respect for Mexico and its people and he will always speak the truth to them. Here's my question: When can we get that deal? --Jay Leno The Senate voted to make English the national language. More bad news for President Bush. Now he's got to learn that. --Jay Leno The Senate voted 63 to 34 to make English the official language of the United States, but they say as a largely symbolic amendment with no real effect. You know, kind of like that ethics bill. --Jay Leno Pat Robertson said this week that God told him that possibly a tsunami could hit the Pacific northwest this year. I don't want to be disrespectful, but possibly? ... Like God's thinking 60/40. ... Pat, that wasn't God. You fell asleep in front of the weather channel. --Jay Leno As part of the ongoing immigration debate, the Senate on Thursday voted 64 to 34 to make English America's national language. Coming in second: '70s jive talk. –Tina Fey A Senate committee on Thursday approved a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting that our forefathers wore wigs and satin Capri pants. --Tina Fey Kenyan Muslims believe that a five-and-a-half pound tuna caught in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Mombasa, carries a message from Allah written among its scales. In a related story, this doctor [shows a picture of Bill Frist] doesn't think doesn't think condoms stop AIDS. And that's this week's edition of 'Religion Gone Nuts' --Tina Fey Many governors of northeastern states are unwilling to volunteer their National Guard troops to assist with President Bush's border plan. They want the Guard troops doing what they do best: freaking people out at Amtrak stations. –Amy Poehler A Louisiana state Senate committee unanimously approved a ban on cock fighting, in what appears to be a first step in outlawing gay marriage --Amy Poehler President Bush is sending troops to the Mexican border. He's going to have them look for tequila of mass destruction. --David Letterman The Bush administration is tightening immigration now. In order to cross the United States, you have to have legal documentation. If you want to get into the United States you have to have legal documentation or a 95 mile an hour fast ball. --David Letterman The Senate yesterday voted to make English the national language of the United States and also our national muffin. The English muffin. I'm glad they took some time out to work on that. --Jimmy Kimmel It's all part of this immigration
Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
Hey Mark; BushCo is low as a snake's belly (very apt) in the minds of most (70%+ rising) Americans -- would be worse if about 10% didn't get their news only from FauxNews (Fox), which is totally in BushCo's pocket. the shrub his cabal are corporatocrats, primarily oilmen -- their disastrous policies reflect that -- we can only hope work to turn them out of Congress this year then hire a real President etc. in 2008. Get real news from the AM (alternative media), 'cause the MM (mainstream media) are ALL mostly part of the cabal. Fortunately, the 2nd superpower is alive, well, growing by leaps bounds (in spite of all BushCo's weasely spin machinery. Best for a better future E. Allen C. --- Mark` Cookson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The images that the UK media give out is that Mr Bush is popular with the US people. The biggest thing is that the US government deny SO WE ARE TOLD through are media is that global warming due to mans pollution does not exist in there minds ? Whats all that about? We are trying to cut back and the US gov are pushing forward with there pollution. Have i got this all wrong? Mark [living in a mad world!] From: John Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:12:11 -0400 Could someone please remind me, because I forget... How the hell did Bush get re-elected?? Question for all of you who do not live in the United States: Do people in your area think that the US people support President Bush? Do those people realize that President Bush has an approval rating of 29%? I'm from Boston, Massachusetts, and darn it, I don't think I know anyone who would admit to voting for Bush in 2004 or who, when asked, would say that they would vote for Bush right now. Just wondering, -John On May 23, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: The Senate voted to make English the national language of the United States. The vote drew protests from several immigrant groups and one governor of California. --Conan O'Brien Even though it's a little bit controversial, President Bush supports the effort to make English our national language. The president says making English our national language is not 'discriminatious.' --Conan O'Brien The Pentagon announced today that Iraq’s border is now 90% under control, which is pretty impressive when you realize San Diego's border is only 20% under control. --Jay Leno As you know, the National Guard stands by, ready to go into action any time the president of the United States feels there's a big enough of a disaster, like a major earthquake, a huge flood, a 29% approval rating. Any one of those things could trigger movement. --Jay Leno He went to a border town in Arizona yesterday. ... But, White House spokesman Tony Snow said it was not just a photo opportunity. No sirry Bob. Apparently, President Bush went down there looking for some guys about landscaping at the White House. --Jay Leno President Bush is pretty serious about this enforcement thing. In fact, before he left the border, he put up a scarecrow of Dick Cheney with a shotgun. --Jay Leno President Bush said today he has nothing but respect for Mexico and its people and he will always speak the truth to them. Here's my question: When can we get that deal? --Jay Leno The Senate voted to make English the national language. More bad news for President Bush. Now he's got to learn that. --Jay Leno The Senate voted 63 to 34 to make English the official language of the United States, but they say as a largely symbolic amendment with no real effect. You know, kind of like that ethics bill. --Jay Leno Pat Robertson said this week that God told him that possibly a tsunami could hit the Pacific northwest this year. I don't want to be disrespectful, but possibly? ... Like God's thinking 60/40. ... Pat, that wasn't God. You fell asleep in front of the weather channel. --Jay Leno As part of the ongoing immigration debate, the Senate on Thursday voted 64 to 34 to make English America's national language. Coming in second: '70s jive talk. –Tina Fey A Senate committee on Thursday approved a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting that our forefathers wore wigs and satin Capri pants. --Tina Fey Kenyan Muslims believe that a five-and-a-half pound tuna caught in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Mombasa, carries a message from Allah written among its scales. In a related story, this doctor [shows a picture of Bill Frist] doesn't think doesn't think condoms stop AIDS. And that's this week's edition of 'Religion Gone Nuts' --Tina Fey Many governors of northeastern states are unwilling to volunteer their National Guard troops to assist with President Bush's border plan. They want the
Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio
Todd, Keith, Mike et al List; Kudos still to Keith for even-handed reasonableness. I'm also not a journalist, just a reader; still, i read the whole thing the links (retired, i have lots of time -- like to get the whole flavor of what i taste). It was apparent that this was an angry outraged piece -- i was sure by the end that the frail lady was probably not pure as the driven snow in the encounter, despite her protestations. But still -- she ( her fledgling organization) has citizen's rights, some of them were obviously violated, by organized power holding all the cards stacking the deck. At the very least, she ( the WCW she's part of) are due an apology some redress -- i wonder if they'll get it? This incident reminded me of one similar, albeit on a much larger scale, also in Ohio back in the day -- but 4 student activists DIED at Kent State! Supposedly, re-training for Nat'l Guard police came of that -- but a generation has grown old the new one may not have gotten that benefit. Time to revisit? Regards E. Allen C. P.S. Keith, i owe you the List an apology for muddy writing (about a month ago) -- which you very aptly corrected: i didn't mean biofuel is biofuel is biofuel, but, on re-reading (after getting over the stinging rebuke) that was how it came across -- I'm sorry. What i meant was more like fuel is fuel is fuel, we need to learn how to cure our gluttony for fuel, for the sake of this, our only planet. Namaste Allen --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You have to answer the questions who, what, where, when, why and how in the first 25 words. But you seem to expect to find the whole newspaper encapsulated in the front-page lead headline. And there you have it Keith. If you can honestly tell me that those questions were sufficently answered at the outset of the article, http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=1029Itemi then we certainly do have a difference in understanding on how best to capture an audience and communicate an idea expeditiously. And when from the 27th word through about the 2,500th the reader is repeatedly bombarded with editorializing to the tune of This is an outrage! - intended to enlist and incite emotion long before the facts are supplied - not to mention soliciation of donations for a cause that hasn't even been fully described yet, it's a pretty safe bet that it's not going to get any better and the facts probably need to be sought elsewhere. People generally don't like being led around the doggy park by a leash (2,500 words) and told what to think or believe, even if it is from a granola source. If I was after pre-packaged, I'd buy Swansons and watch Fox Knows. Like I mentioned to Mike Weaver, I got tired of the propaganda and stopped scrolling down. I did go to their archives and searched for a little more information. So it can't be said that I had neither interest or initiative. Fault me for not caring for the author's/webmaster's style if you wish. But the point is that if they failed to capture my full attention as someone who has interest in such maladies, then they're probably going to fail to gain the attention of others at an exponential rate. As for Why are you importing the rules of one type of journalism (print) into a discussion that focuses on online information? Do newspapers come with handy word-search engines, for instance? Do you see that rule of journalism much in evidence when it comes to blogs? That thing is a sort of blog. What goes on in the blogosphere is making big huge dents in the mainstream press these days, Do you really think that the general guidelines of good communication should be chucked out the window when it comes to the internet and blogs? There should have been hotlinks pasted throughout their article from nearly sentence one. (Full story on Page 11.) And as a general rule, blogs pretty much give you the 5 dubyas and a how up front. Judging from this exchange, what it seems you haven't been there and done is learnt how to extract information. What it seems is exactly as I've explained. Nothing more and nothing less. I wanted facts and didn't have the patience to wade through a half-ton of blather to get to them. I'm not a speed reader. I'm just an average Joe who likes a straight story, not one well garnished with an endlessly distracting raft of flotsam and jetsom. You've been a web pressman? I know you worked in the old hot-metal press, but not as a journalist. Here we are on the Internet and I see scant evidence of soy-based ink. For nigh eleven years. Some of the smartest people anyone has ever known can (or could) be found twisting keys on ink fountains. Editorial rooms aren't exactly the sole repository of exceptional intelligence and/or skills. Quite a number of dim bulbs in that closet by my estimation. This time you definitely did
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the Pentagon Strike
On what scale, Clint? A few fighter jet pilots who didn't receive authorization to fire on commercial airliners even when it was obvious that their flight path to collision was inevitable -- a possible (ONE would be sufficient) private demolition contractor to set up insurance that said collision would be devastating -- a natural diversion of air traffic away from line-of-sight observation of just 2 other airliners (neither of which produced wreckage that would confirm the stated disasters) -- and i've already noted the FBI confiscation of all possible video evidence you don't think the cabal that stole the 2000 election in our state [your email address places you in FL, as does mine], and then manufactured the lies that put US in Iraq -- you really don't think that cabal could control those few loose ends?? They don't have to prove anything -- it's enough to make it impossible for anyone to prove anything contrary, they've done that. I don't usually like to denigrate personally -- but you did -- to QUOTE Mr. Barnum: there's a sucker born every minute... pull your head out of the dune and get your own life -- based on the reality that such things ARE possible (I didn't say [as noone can, at this point in time] that that's definitely what happened). Best wishes for a good life ;-) E. Allen C. --- Clint Allison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To Paraphrase Mr. Barnum, There's a conspiratorist born ever minute. The Big Bad Government can't even successfully conceal an NSA program to monitor phone numbers, how can anyone think they could keep something on that scale quiet. Get a life!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:22 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the Pentagon Strike E. C. wrote: Hey, Mike; How many folks are in the FBI's witness protection program?? Beats me. But I do think it would be a challenge to make all those people just disappear - some of them had families according to the paper. if the FBI was able to confiscate ALL video records within a few minutes, how long to divert a flight secure the passengers? Especially if u know ahead what's coming? There were no major parts of Flight 93 found, either, according to emerg. I haven't heard that but I can't explain it. It does seem odd. After that plane went down in the Atlantic a few years ago they found quite a bit of it. Response workers first on the scene -- 3 WTC towers came down in what looked a lot like controlled demolition, even tho 1 plane struck each of 2 towers, which were built to withstand impact of precisely this type .. Actually the towers were built to sustain the impact of smaller planes - which were the norm when they were built. There was an interview with the architect - I believe in The New Yorker (note: I'm not swearing as to the source, so don't go all biofuels list on me ;-) The towers did withstand the strike only to collapse later. Meanwhile, the shrub his cabal desperately needed a Pearl Harbor to shore up their admin. in public minds get on with their PNAC plan (which they have followed precisely ever since, including Iran [I didn't mis-spell]. Listen: You're not going to get any defense of the current admin. from me. If they're capable of ginning up a false war in Iraq nothing would surprise me. Wild-eyed radical conspiracy theories? Maybe ... but, as in the JFK case, follow the money. Haliburton, the avian bird-flu hoax, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Ag -- pick your own starting point. You had me at Halliburton... Regards, E. Allen --- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But then what happened to the actual plane and the passengers? How did they all just disappear? D. Mindock wrote: Have any of you watched the newly released government video, supposedly showing a Boeing 747 crashing into the Pentagon? Did any of you think you saw a 747? Here's another piece on the Pentagon Strike worth watching may truth and light prevail...jeannie http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main -- -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists. org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules
Mikes, Zeke, Chip, Hakan et al; Greetings -- thanx for the hope! I'm trying to dope out a system to incorporate in a geodesic-dome structure [utilizing thin-film PV in top panels to capture sun-source as heat-transfer/electrical-generation] also to accelerate algae-production in a holding tank to provide biomass to process to BD for transport fuel. Trouble is, i'm no chemist or engineer, just a reader -- this forum is the greatest for idea-generation!! i'm not concerned about patents ownership rights: with what i figure is a 10-15-year window of opportunity to effect change to sustainable living patterns, we need all the idea-sharing (some call it theft of intellectual property) we can get, for survival as a species! Specific to this thread: the cooling fluid across the PV film doesn't need to be deep if the heat is transferred redirected (a radiator?) at a separate site, right? Or am i off in left field? Sooo much i don't know A friend works in an aluminum-extrusion factory, says can make the PV-film-holding panels easy -- but i read that aluminum is a drawback; why not, say, slotted 2X6 lumber w/wood keys ?? With the geodesic design using 1/7 the structure-support needed for comparable box-type enclosure space, seems this is still practicable -- 2 X 6 would allow space for sun-blocking liquid-foam insulation (interior of the PV, the circulating algae medium [water], of course). I live in Florida, summer heat is an issue. Geodesics are also more wind-resistant (as in hurricanes, which are becoming more prevalent, bigger, more damaging as the global climate degenerates -- at least i'm not right on the coast). Enuf of my ramblings -- ideas corrections are most gratefully accepted acknowledged. :-)~ Peace to All, a bettering world E. Allen C. --- Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes!! That's a great observation Zeke! Quite literally, it would be a self-cleaning solar collector. Filtration at the pump is something that would be an appropriate piece of hardware anyway. We should all keep this on the back burner until one or some of us have the resources to conspire on a prototype.. In my opinion it would be the pinnacle of this forum to develop technology together which would be freely accessible to anyone in the public domain. Is there a Patent attorney in the house? I want to know if this thread is legally binding, making members of this forum co-inventors under the current first-to-invent system in the US. Mike Zeke Yewdall wrote: This sounds better. For one, you don't have a pressurized flat plate, which would be hard to engineer compared to a tube -- imagine the pressure on a 3 x 5 foot piece of glass with pressurized fluid behind it. Not that a large flat box with pressurized fluid in it would have to be at very high pressure if it was a drainback type system. But I like the cascading fluid better. You could do it as cascading without a front cover at all, but then you'd collect loads of dust (and other debris, animals, etc), so that would over time block more light than the extra piece of glass. With the high heat transfer of a liquid though, a system with fluid touching only the back of the PV cells might be sufficient though. But then you are back to requiring a filled fluid resevoir instead of a trickle, since the back of the PV module would be downward facing. Hmm. On 5/16/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who says that the PV cells have to be immersed in the oil? If the modules were in the glass box and standing (more or less) upright, the oil coolant could simply be cascaded over the modules. Even if the oil had relatively high photoabsorption compared to water (for example), there would only be a thin film to penetrate. Any thoughts? Mike Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Many of the high voltage transformers in electricity distribution are filled with oil for insulation and cooling purposes. In this case I belive it is mineral oils, but it is many years (40) since I worked with this and do not completely trust my memory. They were, and 40 years ago, they were filled with that marvelous compound that did everything exactly right. Polychlorinatedbiphenol. Great stuff all in all, just had one drawback SNIP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Another view of the Pentagon Strike
Hey, Mike; How many folks are in the FBI's witness protection program?? if the FBI was able to confiscate ALL video records within a few minutes, how long to divert a flight secure the passengers? Especially if u know ahead what's coming? There were no major parts of Flight 93 found, either, according to emerg. Response workers first on the scene -- 3 WTC towers came down in what looked a lot like controlled demolition, even tho 1 plane struck each of 2 towers, which were built to withstand impact of precisely this type .. Meanwhile, the shrub his cabal desperately needed a Pearl Harbor to shore up their admin. in public minds get on with their PNAC plan (which they have followed precisely ever since, including Iran [I didn't mis-spell]. Wild-eyed radical conspiracy theories? Maybe ... but, as in the JFK case, follow the money. Haliburton, the avian bird-flu hoax, Big Oil, Big Pharma, Big Ag -- pick your own starting point. Regards, E. Allen --- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But then what happened to the actual plane and the passengers? How did they all just disappear? D. Mindock wrote: Have any of you watched the newly released government video, supposedly showing a Boeing 747 crashing into the Pentagon? Did any of you think you saw a 747? Here's another piece on the Pentagon Strike worth watching may truth and light prevail...jeannie http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Loose Change -- new video sheds new light on 9/11
or check Netflix or whoever for a DVD -- i got a fraud warning on original post, also; no virus warning, tho. E. Allen C. --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: copy the url proper (not the entire hotlink) and paste it into your browser. Todd Swearingen Bob Carr wrote: Hi just went to check this movie out and got a warning that it could be a fraud attempt. Could this be the big brother intervention that other threads have warned about? I wonder? Bob - Original Message - *From:* D. Mindock mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Undisclosed-Recipient:; mailto:Undisclosed-Recipient:; *Sent:* Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:09 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Loose Change -- new video sheds new light on 9/11 The video brings up new info that I've not seen before. The video makers did do a lot of work to pull a lot sources together. The 9/11 tradgedy was, in spite of all the effort by the gov, a bungled job. It doesn't stand up to intelligent scrutiny. Now it is our job to get the disgusting thugs out of office and into prison. They (Bush/Cheney/et. al.) ARE the real enemy combatants. Peace, D. Mindock Dear friends, As one who has worked as a language interpreter for presidents http://t.ymlp.com/hhhatauuaiaweaxamwu/click.php and other dignitaries at the highest levels of government, I am deeply committed to strengthening democracy and to building a brighter future for all of us. I and many others in the research network in which I am involved have found that *a key difficulty we face in building a better world is the resistance of many people to looking at some of the darker aspects of what is going both in the world and inside of ourselves.* I invite you to consider that by avoiding or suppressing the darker aspects of life, we only give them room to grow even darker and more threatening. By choosing to pull back the veil and look directly into the darkness, by choosing to face both our individual and collective fears and working to transform them, we can improve not only our own lives, but our entire world. I present the information below out of a desire to invite all of us draw back the veils and awaken to the deeper potential that lies within all of us to play an important role in transforming our world into a more caring, supportive place to live. *If you can give just a few minutes of your time, I invite you to open to a crucial piece of what is going on behind the veil by watching the most empowering documentary on 9/11 that I've ever seen. Titled Loose Change, this highly revealing film is available free on Google Video at the link below.* If you have limited time, I cannot recommend highly enough going straight to the link now and watching at least 10 to 15 minutes of this highly revealing documentary. The reliable information provided serves as a wake-up call for us all to come together in building a better world. *MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from t.ymlp.com claiming to be* http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848 http://t.ymlp.com/hhjakauuaiaweatamwu/click.php - Loose Change (82 minutes) Though it ranks as far and above the best documentary on 9/11 I've seen, Loose Change is not enjoyable to watch. Many people find their stomach turning and their mind saying is this true or how can this be? The documentary is meant to be disturbing, yet it is equally designed to inspire us to action. Once we open to seeing the darkness by educating ourselves, we begin to take power back into our own hands both individually and collectively, and can then work together to create more balance and harmony in our world. snip With gratitude and very best wishes, Fred Burks for the *MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from t.ymlp.com claiming to be* WantToKnow.info Team http://t.ymlp.com/hqmanauuanaweaxamwu/click.php Former language interpreter http://t.ymlp.com/hhhatauuaiaweaxamwu/click.php for Presidents Bush and Clinton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels Movement Is A Scam That Needs To Be Stopped
Hi Alan; I mostly just read, here, having very little expertise in any of the technicalities; however, i feel compelled to speak up this time. This concerned citizen is not an idiot -- seems misinformed (probably by the MM as an only source (?), but raises some valid issues is stirring the pot of public discourse; that's a good thing. Biofuel, IMVHO, is only a tiny slice of Sustainability, at best buys us a little time to adjust to the monumentalities of changing an entire culture, world-wide -- time we desperately need ( don't really have, according to what i hear from the scientific community). At worst, it is a chimera that can allow most of us to go on with an unsustainable life-style while feeling good and righteous about it. E. Allen C. --- Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.sptimes.com/2006/04/08/Opinion/Biofuels_movement_is_.shtml Someone please educate this idiot. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Garrison Keillor on Bush II
Hey, Mike :-)~ I'm with you on what to do w/the burning shrub of Texas; I'd add that we send the rest of the PNAC cabal that's destroying our country with him, and emphasize the first sentence of your qquote boys ( girls - quite a few of them there, too) home, do that First! And i'm not even a Texan -- but we do have his kid brother running things here in FL, where the BushCo 2 fiasco started! Speaking of which -- more is needed by way of activism than just not voting for them: look at what good it did in both elections that the shrub (i've refused to call him by a stolen title since 2000) his cronies engineered. BTW -- i'm probably reiterating other list members' responses; been busy, still have several hundred emails to catch up on -- i apologize if i'm being redundant. All best E. Allen C. --- Mike McGinness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - A quote from the end says: Let's bring the boys home. Otherwise, let's send this man back to Texas and see what sort of work he is capable of and let him start making a contribution to the world. However, this Texan would rather see him sent to Iraq to fight hisown war. We don't need him back in Texas, and we can't leave him in Washingtoneither. By the way I voted against the republicans and the Bushes since1990, so don't blaim me. Mike McGinness D. Mindock wrote:Garrison Keillor, Tribune Media Services Published March 15, 2006 Spring arrived in New York last week for previews,a sunny day with chill in the air, but you could smell mud, and with a little imagination you could sort of smell grass. I put on a gray jacket, instead of black,and went to the opera and saw Verdi's Luisa Miller,Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hey Joe When's the last time you saw the movie Chinatown (Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)? point: been there, done that -- as with most corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out! If We The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON (and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity as a time-frame! E. Allen Cartwright --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] vehicle/people tracking
Hi Doug, Mike, Michael, All yes, except for a couple points, we are at 1984: the old (still-functioning) 300D's, or other recycled vehicles; ever'body making their own fuel; organically growing or buying what we EACH know is organic; designing, building sustainable power systems -- it's the EACH of us that thwarts Big Brother. So far, we are still consumers, with choices: I choose not to own a new car, or a cell-phone, or the latest TV (nothing there the Alternate Media can't give me w/more honesty less manipulative advert., anyway) -- etc., etc. -- but there are many millons of us Each's -- as in another thread here, we are the 2nd superpower, growing exponentially. Peak Oil is here -- and will make Big Brother irrelevant! Allen --- Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1984 here we are! (Oh, I forgot it is 2005! We are into it already!) I think terrorism laws are just the beginning of population control. regards Doug (An Aussie, who has John Howard as Prime Minister: The shrub: as he is a small bush!) On Friday 09 December 2005 1:55, Alt.EnergyNetwork wrote: Wide spread tracking of people, vehicles and products will be everywhere within a few years. RFID chips will soon be embedded in all product packaging. Pet chipping ID becoming popular over the past several years has just been approved for humans. Other tech either being implimented or planned,... biometrics, eye scans, finger print scans and smart cards for ID, national ID cards (with embedded smart chips) EU wants to embed RFID chips in the EURO enabling a record of all cash transactions that currency note goes through. Consumers are photoed hundreds of times daily and growing, once face recognition software becomes wide spread and interfaced with the appropriate or inappropriate databases, there is no limit to the possabilities for intelligence and monitoring of citizens.Add wireless, bluetooth, geo person/vehicle tracking, purchasing habits through smart credit/debit cards and soon RFID paper money and they pretty well know where and what you are up to. At least one appliance co's wants to have RFID sensing technology in their washers and dryers that would fetch information on washing instructions from an RFID chip embedded in the garment. Many of these technologies are introduced in a consumer friendly way such as geo tracked roadside assistance subscriptions for vehicles, inventory tracking and anti theft systems all use similar tech. Lots of other juice tech coming down the pipeline. Privacy had been eroding for a long time but it's a whole new world out there. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] vehicle tracking - pilot project now federally funded Sent: 08 Dec '05 13:47 We can be tracked by cell phones, closed circuit TV cameras on city streets and soon I suspect, national ID cards under the REAL ID act. It's the legislation behind the technology that concerns me. After all, You don't need advanced technology to track someone. You only need someone with a willingness to watch you and the destruction of any limitations for that person to so (i.e. the USA Patriot Act). Mike _MIKE WEAVER [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Most new cars have a chip in them that can report pretty much everything the car does - like a black box flight recorder. Another reason to have an old 300D! Michael Redler wrote: Thanks Kirk. I will distribute as widely as I can! Dubya still has some political capital (as he likes to say). All the work put into creating a culture of fear, leading to disturbing civil rights violations, makes me surprised that the national security card wasn't played. From the story: No restrictions prevent police from continually monitoring, without a court order, the whereabouts of every vehicle on the road. Despite the new spin, it still strangely (or ominously) resembles the USA Patriot Act. Mike */Kirk McLoren /* wrote: ZDNet.com is running a story about a runaway idea of a [0]tracking automobiles via GPS. Not to be confused with the Canadian project geared towards [1]anti-speeding ideas, this one does in fact have the goal of tracking your vehicle. 'The U.S. Department of Transportation has been handing millions of dollars to state governments for GPS-tracking pilot projects designed to track vehicles wherever they go. So far, Washington state and Oregon have received fat federal checks to figure out how to levy these 'mileage-based road user fees.' However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court
Re: [Biofuel] More about Bhopal
Dear Kurt; I'm with you on the Bhopal atrocity -- and immediately sent it on to everyone i know, including truthout.org (an investigative story there could reach many millions). The saddest part of it is just how clearly it shows the absolute amorality and subsequent immorality of the global corporatohypocrisy that rules strictly from the bottom line. Exactly why (since there are so many equally ghastly stories constantly surfacing) we need to take back control of our lives, and fight like hell to change the way hte world operates! I'd offer a bromide for your gut if i knew of one that might work (and that hasn't been compromised by Big Pharma). Allen --- Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've read some disgusting things before. I've seen some even more disgusting things. Helped clean them up, too. And I have rarely had a problem with my stomach churning nearly as much as it is now. That... apalling atrocity and the unforgiveable practices since then are just, just... Unforgiveable? Inexcusable? Atrocious and hellish? Damn English language is failing me at the moment. No word for how utterly disgusted reading that makes me. Makes me glad I don't use pesticides or heavy cleaners already. And leaves me wondering how long it's going to go on. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Mike; I was going to jump on this thread DBY, but got busy -- Keith has already said most of what i was thinking. Only addng: Big Oil is already acutely aware, as is the rest of the corporatocracy -- but the grass-roots movement is already almost at the tipping point, BO is already irrelevant they know it (hence the gluttanous rush to control profit while they can). When We The People reach critical mass (world-wide, as Keith points out) on sustainability, the paradigm will shift... IF we're lucky plucky persistent willing to risk the perils of Civil Disobedience (as voiced by others here), some of Y'All may survive into that paradigm, be able to pass a future to your children G'chidren. I can wish (but i'm close to 70 -- so I doubt I'll be here for it, which saddens me) AND i can do all i can to help -- Humanity is a worthy experiment, in spite of all the flaws built in. Keep THAT faith, emulate the dung-beetle, with your eyes on the horizon. Peace Love E. Allen --- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody really knows because nobody really monitors the news. That's another thing I would propose: subscribe to a clipping service and write a custom Google search to stay on top of what's happening. Track legislation. The last thing I would propose is to become another NBB. I was down in Pittsboro, NC doing the tour, and there was a person there who owned a large trap grease company in the Ga. area. His companion/driver let it slip that the powers that be, the ol boys in the legislature were considering some better regulation on WVO. To wit: making it neccessary to have a state license and the right equipment to collect and store it. Idle chatter? I don't know. But it didn't sound good. I'm envisioning something moveon.org, and it there is something on the table putting on my monkey suit, rounding up a few of my more literate crackpot BD friends and going down to talk to our representatives. I already have a few connection down there so we would at least get a hearing. If it were really critical I would start calling in media favors - hope to get our side into the debate. On the other hand, I don't propose raising a stink if all is quiet. Thomas Kelly wrote: Keith, I'm not sure that Mike is proposing a national campaign complete with television commercials and lobbyists well-funded with $ to grease the gears of the political process. It sounds as though he might be willing to monitor proposals that could effect BD homebrewers here in the US and keep us posted. After all, the original message to this thread was: caught a piece of something on the news about the US Guvmint wanting to tax alternate fuel vehicles so they can pay their fair share of highway maintenance costs. Anyone know anything about this? AP The first sentence has caused a great deal of discussion, but no one has answered the question: Anyone know anything about this? Is there a proposal? Who is making the proposal? We've discussed taxes on fuel, dying fuel,etc. when the question asks about taxing alternate fuel vehicles. Maybe there is a proposal to tax electric cars based on miles travelled. Commercial buses are taxed, after paying fuel tax, additional road use tax based on miles travelled in each state. The discussions have been great. I've been following them with interest. I would love to have someone keeping track of the way things are playing out at our national level to keep us informed, prepared, and with suggestions for a way to be proactive rather than reactive. This is a global list. There is a saying Think global, act local. (or something like that) I think it would be beneficial to have a group that monitors national and even local proposals, (here in the US) and I would be willing to pay a membership fee or would it be better to say make a donation to the cause? Tom - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:02 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? Hello Walker and all I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like this. It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared. We've been foreseeing it for six years at least, and we've already seen such moves in various places. But it's probably too late, the cat's out of the bag, we're right out of control, IMHO. Also at the local level, the worldwide community of biofuels homebrewers have developed cheap, effective and safe small-scale production methods that produce high-quality fuel and that anyone can use. There are now many kinds of independent
Re: [Biofuel] exclusive: Bush Plot To Bomb His Arab Ally
Tom what you're missing is the far-wider implications of this disgrace: that this bumbling neo-con figurehead/posterboy illegally residing in (and fronting for) the corporatocracy that IS the White House (AND Congress, and soon the entire judiciary as well) can, does, entertain feel enuf immunity to bring up such insane notions for how to deal w/anyone who embarrasses him/them. Makes the Valerie Plame fiasco look like kids playing in a sandbox! And, of course, surely you've noticed that this latest bumble has abruptly disappeared from MM (mainstream media). E. Allen --- Tom Scheel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Massive Snip] Exclusive: Bush Plot To Bomb His Arab Ally Madness of war memo By Kevin Maguire And Andy Lines 11/22/05 The Mirror -- -- PRESIDENT Bush planned to bomb Arab TV station al-Jazeera in friendly Qatar, a Top Secret No 10 memo reveals I'm angry that Bush is rolling back environmental policy in favor of an extract and consume policy. I'm angry that we have made a hash of the war in Iraq and alieniated the US from the world community in the process. I'm livid about our energy policy. But I don't understand what is wrong with considering all options in war. This one was (wisely) discarded. Maybe it should not have made it up the to the president (ie been shot down at a lower level). Had he gone through with it, then yes, very bad decision. But in the context of how can we win/be successful with Bush'es Iraq adventure, I am all for creative and comprehensive thinking. And I am all for eliminating bone headed ideas from that list. To a casual observer, it looks like that is exactly what happened. So what am I missing? thanks Tom Radiance Heating and Plumbing, Inc. (ROC 204149,204150) Tom Scheel 928-380-6294 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] (no subject)
Keith no blame here (i know how weasely crackers are) should have known better than to open a no subject attmnt -- no harm done, my AV caught refused the virus -- but just to let you know warn others. E. Allen :-)~ --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The message cannot be represented in 7-bit ASCII encoding and has been sent as a binary attachment. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click. http://farechase.yahoo.com
Re: [Biofuel] Grass for fuel
.. all well good; but i've read (somewhere) that Butanol is greatly superior to ethanol as a fuel in IC engines; that it is more eco-friendly; that it can be produced from biomass, but the process is somewhat more difficult than ethanol production .. anyone into this area of investigation? --- MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jason and Katie wrote: having read this article, i seem to be missing some of the math... this miscanthus is a rhizome, correct? and like other rhizomes (i.e. strawberries) there is a good sized chunk of sugars and other carbon based items stored in the root/stem system, also correct? so that would imply that it STORES carbon and does not reintroduce all of it when burned, because it stays in the field as the jump start for the next growing season. am i correct in this extrapolation? It sounds that way to me and the math I wondered about is tonnage or tons compared to tonnes. The 25 ton/acre or 60 tonnes/hectare from Giant Miscanthus compared to corn grain and corn stover yields sounds pretty good if I look only at the high end of the 10-30 tons per acre dry weight each year. This makes me wonder about the dry ton yield per acre for cellulosic ethanol compared to switchgrass or corn or sugar cane. Biofuels and Agriculture A Factsheet for Farmers 4 page, 584k PDF ftp://bioenergy.ornl.gov/pub/pdfs/farmerfactsheet.pdf - A bushel of corn (56 lb or 25 kg) yields about 2.5 US gallons (9.5 liters) of ethanol - A ton (2000 lb or 980 kg) of corn stover will yield about 80-90 US gallons (300-340 liters) of ethanol, - A ton of switchgrass will yield in the range 75-100 US gallons (285-380 liters) Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html Bransby's 6-year average, 11.5 tons a year, translates into about 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Democracy
ahhh .. Mr. Rogers w/attitude .. can I be your neighbor? I live in W's brother's fiefdom now .. don't mind the sound of an axe, want a garden - and a field of switchgrass, maybe .. be glad to share the produce! room for a wind turbine, andsome PV technology would be nice, too :-) --- Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: viz straight represetative democracy - be careful what you wish for. If Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system they'd wind up with a far more radical Wahab state. Look at California's referendum system - it's out of control. It's created an ungovernable state. Looks at Arizona's you pay no school taxes if you're over a certain age measure. Great - I got my free education the hell with you. Just keep paying my social security. Presumably we elect leaders to make decision in the best interest of the governed. I don't know that the founders ever expected the voters to be so apathetic and so easily fooled. And no, I don't think ANY of my neighbors would give up ANYTHING so that others might have a bit more. In fact, I'm amazed at the lengths they will go to to try to make me comply with their notion of what's proper. No woodstoves No older cars (yes, it looks fine, it's just an '89) Quotes: That garden really looks out of place - you're not going to do that every year, are you? Yes, I am. I wish you'd get rid of that woodpile, and it's noisy when you split wood. Awww the list goes on... Zeke Yewdall wrote: What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can text message their votes every night Sort of scary. But is it scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about their actual government On 10/27/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the people who put these monsters in office. The problem is it's like going shopping. You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you made. The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable. How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal? So what really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle. Control of world economy is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said voting once every four years is hardly democratic. Representative governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for the ride (because they need them). Boy they must have some real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real democratic system. If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible. I know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought. Joe Zeke Yewdall wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by nature reflect the will of it's people. In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this. Zeke On 10/26/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one. Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain. Usually, I try not to generalize because it
