Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet?
Hi Chip, Read Sam Harris' excellent and thoughtful book, Letter to a Christian Nation. It may help you to figure it out. Cheers, Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Can these people be trusted with our planet? robert and benita rabello wrote: GREAT BIG SNIP For if God is the creator of the earth, who are WE to destroy it? If we claim to follow Jesus Christ, we should DO what he did, and our attitudes should be in harmony with his. I can search the scriptures from beginning to end and find no evidence that God advocates the destruction of the earth (in fact, the concept of judgment and destruction by fire that is so often touted to dismiss calls for environmental action are coupled with the idea that the destruction is caused by our own actions. It's every man's sword against his brother. There are MANY examples of this scattered throughout the text.), yet many of the naysayers who claim to be Christ's followers ridicule the concept of global warming because the mounting evidence of climate change SHOULD compel us to turn away from our greedy exploitation of resources and the heaping of luxuries into our own laps. This is really a form of idolatry, using scriptural language, and though we are destroying the earth by what we're doing, we refuse to repent . . . AMEN. Along those lines; Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Now, where it says, rape, pillage, ruin and destroy and then move on, I haven't figured out yet. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Anyone done an EV conversion?
I should have specified - battery to vehicle weight 30% or greater. Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: William Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Anyone done an EV conversion? Read Bob Brant's book Build Your Own Electric Vehicle. He say s 30% or greater. Good Luck, Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Luke Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Anyone done an EV conversion? I'm thinking of attempting a conversion on my 1976 Chevy 1/2 ton van. Maybe a simple 96-volt system...series wire eight 12V car batteries that I find lying around. The range would suck, but this is more just for shits and giggles anyways. Also, feel free to shoot me down here, but I've heard of folks using their starter motors as drive motors for the cars themselves...anyone care to comment? Thanks, Luke __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Anyone done an EV conversion?
Read Bob Brant's book Build Your Own Electric Vehicle. He say s 30% or greater. Good Luck, Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Luke Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Anyone done an EV conversion? I'm thinking of attempting a conversion on my 1976 Chevy 1/2 ton van. Maybe a simple 96-volt system...series wire eight 12V car batteries that I find lying around. The range would suck, but this is more just for shits and giggles anyways. Also, feel free to shoot me down here, but I've heard of folks using their starter motors as drive motors for the cars themselves...anyone care to comment? Thanks, Luke __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] shedding fat for oil
I agree with Kirk -a constructive thought. But in the interest of correctness Iwill point out two errors that folks need to be aware of: (1) The statement, "every 100 lbs in your vehicle increases your mpg by 2%...", should be, "...decreases mpg by 2%...". (2) bearing in mind that we are equating 100 lbs with a 2% change in mpg, the calculation in bullet #1 errs by ten-fold owing to an errant decimal point - in decimal notation 2% = 0.02, but that, remember, is the factor for 100 lbs; Jon Benson is now talking about the savings related to 1/10 that amount, or 10 lbs, hence the arithmetic should be 0.2% (=0.002, not 0.02). This reduces his reported savings by ten-fold. Although this ten-fold reduction in his potential savings is obviously substantial,I hasten to point outthat this reduced saving is still an impressive $798 million/yr. So I applaud Jon Benson for an innovative idea and I thank Kirk for bringing it to our attention. Now, for those among us who have the good fortune of weighing in at about where they graduated high school many years ago, there are two old tried and true, but now neglected,methods (by no means original with me) of significantly increasing our mpg - (1) limit top speed to 55 mph, and (2) keep it steady by using cruise control. My results in a 1989 Toyota Camry traveling several thousand miles over the past twelve months have shown an increase in mpg of 32 to 36 using these simple rules. This is a little over 10%. How does this stack up in the fuel savings equation? Use Jon's oil and gasoline usage facts and do the math yourself. It's impressive. These techniques are obviously suitable only for low traffic density freeway conditions. Safety should never be compromised. You can be sure that I don't do thisin three full lanes of fast-flowing traffic and a string of 75 mph 18-wheelers on my rear bumper. City traffic won't cut it either. On average I use these techniques for about half my mileage. Of course this reduces my overall mpg saving from 10% to about 5%. Apocryphal? Yes. Very real dollars in my pocket? Absolutely. Try it yourself and report your results here. Best wishes to allfor improved fuel efficiency, Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: [Biofuel] shedding fat for oil definitely a constructive thought Kirk http://www.fitover40.com/newsletter/ I really do not care what your personal political agenda may be. It is none of my business, and this is not a political forum. However, oil and war is not much of a political bombshell. They go together like bread and butter. The current situation in Iraq, in the view of many, is another war for oil. Others feel differently. You are entitled to your own view, be it left, right, or merely confused as to where left and right ran off to. The media can do that to a person. The fact remains that we have seen war for oil, money, land, you name it. Today I want to pick on oil. Even if you feel that our place in Iraq has nothing whatsoever in the slightest to do with oil, you would probably admit that saving our natural resources is a decent idea. Oil is not self-replenishing, now is it? Are there any dinosaurs left that I do not know about? Good. I was just making sure Jurassic Park was indeed a work of fiction. I realize there are some who believe that oil is not a fossil fuel. However, I am running with the majority of geologists on this one, as well as on the assumption that if the minority are wrong, we are history. It seems a safe place to play. What if I told you that we could reduce our imported crude oil by twenty percent per year without so much as a political sanction or the ride your bike more often approach? You have heard the phrase, shedding blood for oil, right? Well, here is my new agenda: shedding fat for oil. I am not suggesting body fat as an alternative fuel source, although it would give the liposuction clinics and interesting selling spin. I am referring to the simple matter of weight. Not the weight of our cars, although a billion Hummers is probably not a wise idea, but rather the weight of those driving them. Those riding in the front and back seat. The people who pay the loans and sell the Hummers. I am talking about you, and that guy I see in the mirror every morning. And, I am talking about a measly ten pounds. If every American who needed to drop ten pounds of useless fat did so, we would completely cease the need for importing oil from the Middle East. I am not joking. This is not a rant on the Middle East, but rather a step in the right direction to a more environmentally-friendly world. Is that claim rather hard to believe? Good! Get your calculators out and prepare for a fun lesson in mathematical accountability. For all of you who
Re: [Biofuel] off topic Fwd:The Donkey
Hi Kim, We all need a good chuckle now and then. Thanks for mine today. :-) And brighter blessings to you. Oregon Bob - Original Message - From: Garth Kim Travis To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:42 AM Subject: [Biofuel] off topic Fwd:The Donkey Greetings,I know this is off topic, but it is way too funny/wise to not be passed on.Enjoy and Bright Blessings,Kim Subject: The Donkey This is a story we all could learn from. Click on the word Donkey. Donkey ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum.
Hi David, The Handbook of Chemistry Physics, p. D-190, lists the following: Vapor pressure of water in mm. Hg: 5 deg C = 6.543 mm Hg 55 deg C = 118.04 mm Hg Hope this helps. Cheers, Bob (West Linn) - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum. William Adams wrote: Your water-to-steam volume change calculation is not correct. The correct volume increase is 1,244x, obtained as follows: One mole (molecular wt. in gm) of liquid water = 18 gm = 18 cc. One mole of steam = 18 gm h2o vapor = 22,400 cc. At standard temperature and pressure, and for equal molar quantities, the volume change is simply: steam volume / liquid volume = 22,400/18 = 1,244.44... Cheers, Bob (West Linn) Excellent analysis Bob! As far as dewatering goes we'd also have to correct for pressure and temperature. At 29 inches of vacuum the water vapor would take up much more volume:( This part is conjecture; I don't have a processor and never tried to dewater anything. If a condensor was kept at a much lower temperature (5 degrees C?) than the fuel, then a vacuum pump would not have to pump all the water vapor out. By lowering the pressure appropriately, the water will boil in the high temperature fuel and condense in the low temperature condensor. By draining off the liquid condensate one should be able to get most of the water out of the fuel. Once the vapor pressure was low enough to not condense anymore, you'd have to vacuum pump the rest of the water out. But that might be dry enough anyway:) Somebody had the vapor pressure tables for water earlier in this thread, maybe he could look up the pressure for 55 and 5 degrees C. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum.
Your water-to-steam volume change calculation is not correct. The correct volume increase is 1,244x, obtained as follows: One mole (molecular wt. in gm)of liquid water = 18 gm = 18 cc. One mole of steam = 18 gm h2o vapor = 22,400 cc. At standard temperature and pressure, and for equal molar quantities, the volume change is simply: steam volume / liquid volume = 22,400/18 = 1,244.44... Cheers, Bob (West Linn) - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum. Hey Logan and David;These numbers are reasonable. (don't forget to factor in an amount for a steady state leake rate on your system as this adds to the load your pump will see as it approaches base vacuum) Actually I can get on the order of 100 to 200 ml water out of 25 liters of oil at times collecting in my liquid trap. This is estimated I have not measured it. Perhaps I should. But this is after heating to 55 degrees celsius and draining any liquid water that precipitates. So 200 mls in 25 liters is 0.8% water by volume. I'm not sure what your batch size is but as a conservative figure use 1% to figure the amount of water you will have to remove by vacuum. Also remember that a 5 CFM pump will not necessarily give you 5 CFM as was pointed out before. And even after correcting it using gas law equation it still is hampered by conductance of piping between the pump and chamber. Rule of thumb here is use large diameter pipe (as large as the pump inlet if possible) and as few elbows as possible will help a lot.To give you a feel for these factors consider my system takes about an hour to remove said amount of water. My system is relatively leak tight I can get to 29 inches ultimate on a dry system, so I am getting an EFFECTIVE throughput of about 4 to 5 liters per minute at vacuum BUT I am using a dual stage rotary pump which is designed to do 18 CFM. Throughput is reduced dramatically by the fact that I am pumping through a 1/4" tube!! Bear in mind that from the standpoint of throughput bigger is always better, but as a girl I once knew taught me; quality counts for more. When I was pumping through 1/2" copper pipe I only succeeded in causing the contents of the reactor to froth up and " boil over" contaminating the liquid trap in the process. So it is possible to have too much of a good thing. You can reduce the conductance of the piping or install a valve for throttling the pump to avoid this problem and toward the end of the drying cycle open up the valve to speed up the end game. If your reactor starts rumbling and dancing around on it's stand it is a good bet that you will suck liquid up into the condenser, especially if the reactor is filled to a high level.I hope I have helped and not made it seem a lot more complicated. If so take a hint from the fact that my pump is more than adequate for my 30 liter size reactor. I get a sense that it could easily handle a 150 liter tank. There is a tradeoff between heat and vacuum. Either one can speed the drying process but you don't want froth! When I started learning about vacuum my mentor said " you can't rush a vacuum son - we got time for a coffee" so true.CheersJoelogan vilas wrote: David Sorry if that number's wrong it's what I've been told from the only person I know who does AC work. But that number makes it sound a lot better. You will not have 1 cubic foot of water in your oil after you settle and drain it. If you do then you need to get a better method. There is likely less then 1 cubic inch after setteling and draining. That would only take 6 miniutes to remove. Logan Vilas - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 1:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Dewatering with vacuum. logan vilas wrote: Water boils off at 43F at 20-50mmhg of vacuum at sea level. At 140F it takes about 150-200mmhg. When fluids are mixed togther the Pressure of Vaporization changes especially when thouroughly mixed. You do not need a condensor if you are useing a AC type vacuum pump(that's what they are designed for). I know iowa's BECON program flash heats their oil to 230F then runs it through a vacuum chamber to achieve dewatering. Unless you have a very large vacuum pump or very little water in your oil it will take a long time. Water multiplies in volume by 10-18 thousand times when boiled. Say WHAT? I'm not sure what number you mean by "10-18 thousand". The number I remember is about 1700 times. 1 Cubic foot = 1728 cubic inches 1 Cubic Inch of water when boiled off = 5.79 cubic feet minimum 1 gallon = 231 cubic inches Vacuum Distilation alone would take a huge amount of time. I would still heat then let it settle and remove
Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater?
Not twice the heat! More like 3.36 fold increase. Rearrange the formulas describing Ohm's Law and you will see that for a given load (dipstick heater) increasing the voltage from 120v to 220v will increase the power dissipation (heat given off) as follows: (220/120)^2 = 3.361... The simple explanation is that power is proportional to both current and voltage, both of which are increased when voltage is increased. I would guess that running at 220v will decrease heater life span, perhaps dramatically. Hope this helps. Good luck. Bob (West Linn) - Original Message - From: Teoman Naskali [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater? I just purchased some dipstick engine heaters. But I live in europe and they came from america, so they are 120V. Now, if I plug them in to the 220V plugs, I know that they will give twice the heat. What I want to know is that does the heat dissipate off these things fast enough for it not to burn. And it should have some kind of overheat prevention mechanism could this also work with 220V. Does anybody have any experience Thank you in advance. Teoman Mery Chirstmas to all who celebrate it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Guag Meister Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:45 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater? Hi Rob ; Joe, have you ever tried to take the works from a Mr coffee machine and hook them up to DC? Probably not enough power to heat quickly. Resistance = Voltage squared/power. Assuming you are discussing a 120V appliance, and if we simplify and say the resistance is constant with changing temperature, we have : Resistance = 120 * 120 / 850 = 17 ohms. Connected to 12V this would produce 8.5 watts of heating. I think too small to heat fuel effectively. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
Mike (W that is), My adventuresome (perhaps foolish) persona would answer, Yes and , Yes. But my cautious persona says, Yes, if an in depth discussion of pros and cons indicates real merit; and Yes, if Q1 is yes and the tariff is not beyond my means. Others have mentioned the possibility of the US corporate-controlled legislature legally shutting down private biofuellers. If an advocacy group can successfully withstand that onslaught I am with it. Bob (A. in OR) - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? -Mike Doug Turner wrote: Hi Mike, Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People. It's bound to be a cult classic. Doug - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles? Nah, when it comes it'll be from two directions: The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling. This will require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer can't afford. There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get the message and give up. This will probably be aided and abetted by Big Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people. Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and trumpet it all over the place. The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and set up an organization to counter this. Everyone will be in favor of it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues. United we could stand, divided we'll fall. When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver Joe Street wrote: I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the winds of change blow cold on the home brew community? Suppose at some point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or prevent you from making your own fuel. I know that collectively there are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this point. I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental ideals. But what can we do though? I feel I am very fortunate because in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue is concerned. I am just wondering if a possible solution to this potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else registered on the site as well. Comments? Joe David Miller wrote: Joe Street wrote: Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using taxed fuel or home brew anyways? (assuming it is not B100 which could be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then? I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all. Diesel car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested. I know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) in their cars without concern. I don't do it because to it's not worth saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car. It's nice to know I have the reserve though. Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money in a long time to make it worthwhile financially. --- David Joe David Miller wrote: Joe Street wrote: Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh! Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, K1), not in the stuff that's taxed. So adding dye would be a way of saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had. --- David ___
Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
Hi David, Actually, the situation is ten-fold worse than you indicate. There is a ten-fold error in your calculation: to wit, 30hr * 60 min/hr * 60 sec/min = 108,000 sec (not 10,800). This reduces the hydrogen content in the airstream to .009% v/v, not .09% - making hydrogen a truly miracle fuel. This suggests that either we are lacking important information or there is a scam at work. Cheers, Bob Adams - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 6:22 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power William Adams wrote: David, Thanks for the correction of air intake. Agreed, it would be good to look at the beast. Can the anecdotes can be believed ? And, is the concept for real? Let's try putting a couple of things together here Darryl says: According to the CHEC website (http://www.chechfi.ca/), the unit uses 4 litres of distilled water in 12,000 km. You calculated that 12 cc of liquid water electrolyzes to 15 liters of H2 gas. I figured that a 10 liter engine at 1800 RPM uses ~120 liters of air/second. If we assume 100 km/hr driving speed that's 4 liters of water in 120 hours, or 1 liter in 30 hours. In 30 hours of driving we have 30 * 60 min/hr * 60 sec/min = 10800 seconds. 10800 seconds * 120 liters/sec = 1296000 liters of air. 1 liter water * 15 liters H2/.012 liters water = 1250 liters H2. 1250 liters/H2 / 1296000 air = .09% H2 by volume. That H2 would seem to be pretty potent stuff if .09% of it can increase the efficiency of the engine by a net 10%. --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
David, Thanks for the correction of air intake. Agreed, it would be good to look at the beast. Can the anecdotes can be believed ? And, is the concept for real? Bob Adams Bob Adams - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power William Adams wrote: Interesting calculation, and good for back-of-the-envelope stuff. I just wanted to point out that an 1800 RPM 10 liter engine will consume 150 liters of air/second, not 300 since it only takes in air every other stroke. That's assuming a 4 stroke engine, of course:) In fact, that's the maximum, assuming 100% volumetric efficiency. For envelope stuff 80% is probably closer, so we'd be looking at something more like 4.8 mL of water. Interesting numbers though. I wonder what % H2 they really use. As I mentioned earlier, I'd love to see the electrolyzer:) --- David Hi Greg, On water consumption, some order of magnitude, back of an envelope, calculations can be done (don't look for precision, I'm making several assumptions). A 10 liter diesel engine at 1800 rpm will consume (no turbo) 300 liters of air per second. If significant enhancement of performance requires 5% H2 in the intake airstream, the H2 production rate must be 15 liters/second (.05 x 300 liters). This represents 0.67 moles H2, (one mole H2 is 22.4 liters). Electrolylsis of one mole of H2O (18 ml) yields one mole of H2. In one hour of operation at 1800 rpm the engine will consume 2,412 moles of H2 (54,029 liters of H2 gas). To produce this volume of H2 gas will require electrolysis of 43.4 liters of water (about 11.5 gallons) per hour, or about 260 liters on a typical 6 hour run. Another aspect has to do with the amount of electrical energy needed to transform, per second, 12 cc of liquid water to 15 liters of H2 gas. I leave that, and the associated efficiency losses to others. I make no judgment about the overall efficiency, efficacy or worthiness of this technique. As to whether it works or not, as Hakan might say, puede que si, o puede que no. Cheers, Bob, West Linn, OR - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power I have been wondering what the rate of water usage is. Greg H. - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 19:37 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power This process does not violate thermodynamics, and may POSSIBLY result in a small improvement in overall efficiency. A minor improvement in thermal efficiency using a 5% hydrogen supplement has been documented by scientists as renown as Sir Harry Ricardo. This is because hydrogen acts to speed up combustion, and gases that would otherwise continue to expand through the engine's exhaust port and manifold are hurried into producing work while still in the chamber. Now, whether or not this results in a net efficiency gain depends on how efficient the onboard electrolytic device happens to be. I have built several electrolyzers and I'm skeptical, particularly when I read the hype written into this article. A ten liter truck engine inhales an AWFUL lot of air, particularly under boost, so that electrolyzer would have to put out a fairly significant volume of hydrogen to make a difference. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
Hi Greg, On water consumption, some order of magnitude, back of an envelope, calculations can be done (don't look for precision, I'm making several assumptions). A 10 liter diesel engine at 1800 rpm will consume (no turbo) 300 liters of air per second. If significant enhancement of performance requires 5% H2 in the intake airstream, the H2 production rate must be 15 liters/second (.05 x 300 liters). This represents 0.67 moles H2, (one mole H2 is 22.4 liters). Electrolylsis of one mole of H2O (18 ml) yields one mole of H2. In one hour of operation at 1800 rpm the engine will consume 2,412 moles of H2 (54,029 liters of H2 gas). To produce this volume of H2 gas will require electrolysis of 43.4 liters of water (about 11.5 gallons) per hour, or about 260 liters on a typical 6 hour run. Another aspect has to do with the amount of electrical energy needed to transform, per second, 12 cc of liquid water to 15 liters of H2 gas. I leave that, and the associated efficiency losses to others. I make no judgment about the overall efficiency, efficacy or worthiness of this technique. As to whether it works or not, as Hakan might say, puede que si, o puede que no. Cheers, Bob, West Linn, OR - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power I have been wondering what the rate of water usage is. Greg H. - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 19:37 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power This process does not violate thermodynamics, and may POSSIBLY result in a small improvement in overall efficiency. A minor improvement in thermal efficiency using a 5% hydrogen supplement has been documented by scientists as renown as Sir Harry Ricardo. This is because hydrogen acts to speed up combustion, and gases that would otherwise continue to expand through the engine's exhaust port and manifold are hurried into producing work while still in the chamber. Now, whether or not this results in a net efficiency gain depends on how efficient the onboard electrolytic device happens to be. I have built several electrolyzers and I'm skeptical, particularly when I read the hype written into this article. A ten liter truck engine inhales an AWFUL lot of air, particularly under boost, so that electrolyzer would have to put out a fairly significant volume of hydrogen to make a difference. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] On the Destrutiveness of Corporate Power
Keith Addison's contribution of 11/15/05offersa timely and informative look at the worldwide destructiveness of the uncontrolled wielding of corporate power. For those who would like to explore this social aberration in greater depth, read Thom Hartmann's Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights. Bob Adams, West Linn, OR ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How close to this are we?
Close. But not as close as we will be when Roberts is installed as Chief Justice. Bob - Original Message - From: Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 5:11 AM Subject: [Biofuel] How close to this are we? fas.cism n. 1. often Fascism 1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. 2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government. 2. Oppressive, dictatorial control. ___ -- Mike K AntiFossil MN, USA For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery: Jonathan Swift -- next part -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is Katrina the end to Bush's conservatism
Timely and well said. Thanks for sharing this post. Bob (TOIO) - Original Message - From: AntiFossil To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 3:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is Katrina the end to Bush's conservatism Outstanding post!Thanks for sharing Andy : ) On 9/5/05, Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Wise, who is a brilliant anti-racism activist, and lived in NewOrleans 1986-1996, just sent us this...We will continue to forward hiscommentaries on the unpreventable hurricane, and its preventable aftermath, over the coming days...-- Forwarded MessageFrom: Tim Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:03:23 -0500To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: article on KatrinaI have been paralyzed this last few days, unable to write anything.That changed today.snipTim Wise is the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son(http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-68-9).He lived in New Orleans from 1986-1996. He can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Mike KAntiFossilMN, USAFor in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the very definition of slavery:Jonathan Swift ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind
Hi Hakan Joe, Hakan, where do you find 5-7 kwm^-2 for solar incoming energy? That seems a bit high - Joe's figure seems closer. The CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives a solar constant of 1.34kwm^-2, which for N. Lat. 40deg corrects to a ground surface solar energy input of about 0.7kwm^-2, if one averages for the earth's inclination at summer and winter solstices. Of course a tracking collector would collect the entire 1.34kwm^-2 on a clear cloudless day regardless of one's latitude, but here we're talking about photons heating grains of sand so the ground surface figure is the correct one. I'm with you on the hang glider advice :-). Joe, I'm not enough of an atmospheric expert to answer whether your last suggestion would improve or worsen things in earth's weather patterns. The Principle of Unintended Effects would make me hesitant to go that route, though. I would love to use Kim's sig of Bright Blessings, but she's earned that one, so I'll just say Cheers to all, Bob (the one in West Linn, OR) - Original Message - nFrom: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panals or wind Joe, Depends on where you are. Incoming yearly average in northern US is 5-6 kW/m2. I would not fly any hang glider in 100 feet per minute, because you will end up at top of a thunderstorm and come back down as an ice block. It has happened more than once by happy people who did not study hang gliding properly. Do not do it Global warming is caused by higher absorption of the Earth and Air pollution that stops the reflection to escape. By capturing energy, to transform and use it in other ways, maybe the Global warming would be reduced, but it must be in a massive scale. I do not think solar capture have any weather effects even on very large scale. Our changes to the Earth surface and air, have many times larger effect. Hakan At 19:30 31/08/2005, you wrote: As a further note to the discussion of high efficiency solar arrays a question occured to me. The average incoming radiation from the sun is something like 1Kw /sq.m This is a substantial amount of energy and much of it goes into heating up a shallow layer of the surface and much gets re-radiated back to the air as longwave radiation or heat not just during the day but at night as well. Anyone who doubts the amount of solar energy re-radiated to the atmosphere needs only to consider a towering cumulonimbus cloud or better yet to get a real up close and personal gut feel for that energy take up the sport of hang gliding and experience what it is like being yanked skyward at over 1000 feet per minute by convective air currents generated by this solar energy. Supposing that some dirt cheap mass production technique allows us to produce rolls and rolls of film with very high efficiency organic solar cells one day. This technology could solve one of our needs in terms of energy generation and would allow unprecedented growth resulting in an ever increasing percentage of the earth's surface being covered up by solar arrays. Assume for the moment that these arrays are 90%efficient. Now granted that the energy collected in this way would be used in processes that have their own efficiency numbers and some energy would always be lost as waste heat but since we are always striving towards higher efficiencies in all processes, assume as well that these energy consuming processes are quite efficient and that therefore only a small amount of this energy is released back into the environment as waste heat. What effect could this have on the weather? Joe des wrote: Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I am a fan of using solar collectors to fire a stirling engine that can also be fired with methane. Small solar panels for stuff that is used primarily in the daytime, wind power that can be home repaired. And the generator that is fire by the stirling can be run off the pto of the tractor on biodiesel, or from a tire of the car. Lots of overlap and back up. If one part of the system malfunctions, the meat in the freezer does not thaw. I have yet to figure out how to put a 1/4 of a cow in there at a time.grin Bright Blessings, Kim A system I've been working on, and redesigning throughout the years is going more toward solar heat. A solar concentrator, (reads: recycled 10' diameter satellite dish covered with little squares of mirror salvaged from the glass shop's dumpster) and a Stirling engine are integral, the engine integrating the conversion from solar heat to electricity, but then the question arose, do I really want to be dependent on a system that stores its power in batteries? So the system has shifted to collecting heat, and storing that. Then, draw from that, the energy I need for electricity, and still have heat for water, or home space. And on a medium cloud cover, I can still
Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DSE web site Is DSE a believable site - has anyone had experience with them? My first thought is that anything seeming too good to be true usually is. http://www.dieselsecret/com/products.htm Bob, do you TYPE urls??? Yep, but only when I can't remember to do a file,edit,copy,paste! :-) Oh well, no harm that it's broken. PLEASE DON'T FIX IT! I must be really dense today. What's broken? I promise not to fix it! ;-) We recently had this comment from someone joining the list: The ad for Diesel Secret Energy which came up through your web site I think should be shut down, it has all the earmarks of a scam. Diesel Secret Energy at Journey to Forever? No way! Not now, not ever! Which he then admitted, and apologised. Anyway, it does indeed have all the earmarks of a scam, not the first, certainly not the last. It's come up here before but it's so obviously a scam that very few people took any notice, we've seen so many! Hey, buddy, want a cheap quick fix? It's called biodiesel. Cheap You don't need to sell me on it. I'm a believer, but just curious also about other things. I've read most of JTF's good stuff enough, quick enough, you don't need it any cheaper and quicker than that. What do they often say about biodiesel? It sounds too good to be true... But it IS true. Best wishes Keith __ Thanks, Keith, I really do enjoy your comments. With Best to you also, Bob West Linn, OR_ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] DSE web site
Is DSE a believable site - has anyone had experience with them? My first thought is that anything seeming too good to be true usually is. http://www.dieselsecret/com/products.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What has the world come to
Clif, You are correct in insisting on source verification when reporting anything as serious as the report that evangelist and religious broadcaster Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. That's serious stuff. Today I found the following verifying documentation: Source: The Oregonian, p.A8, Tues, Aug 23, 2005, under the byline of THE ASSOCIATED PRESS, Robertson, referring to Chavez, is quoted as follows, 'You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think we really ought to go ahead and do it,' ...'We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability,' Robertson said. Best, Bob Adams - Original Message - From: Clif Caldwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] What has the world come to robert luis rabello wrote: bob allen wrote: Quite a prolife christian, huh. I've read somewhere that Many who are insincere will join them . . . You can tell the REAL ones from the pretenders by how closely they follow the one they claim to love. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Is the source for this correct ? It might be good to cite the source if we are going to assasinate not only a living person but also a man's character. If you have the original source for this information then maybe we should post it here to help clear this up. Just a thought... Clif ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
Hakan, Well said, and most appropriate. But may I respectfully note that like all generalizations, there are many exceptions to the general rule (that lack of international experience leads to a closed mind). Example: Although I, along with many of my friends, have zero international living experience (except through reading and the media), and although we do enjoy living in the US with all its faults (of which we are painfully aware), there are many other countries I think we would enjoy living in - Sweden might be such an enjoyable place, for instance. Far from finding Sweden's socialist form of government abhorrent, there are many of us who would like to see more of it in the US. There's a world of difference between chauvinism and patriotism I do read and enjoy your perceptive and sensitive writings, and I do want to tell you how sorry I was to learn of your experience with the criminal elements. May this be your last contact with them. Regards, Bob Adams - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country Earl, Why I asked? I am Swedish and have lived and worked in 8 countries including US, worked in 25 and visited 60+ more. I found many things that I liked and some things that I disliked in all of them. I can make myself understood in 5 languages, not including the Danish and Norweigian which are very close to Swedish. A big majority in all countries, are very proud of their country and would not want to live anywhere else. The less international experiences they have, the more staunch their opinions are. The Americans do not want to live anywhere else and especially not in a country like the socialist Sweden. The Swedes do not want to live anywhere else and especially not the undemocratic US, where money is the only power. Yet, I have never found any countries that has so much in common as US and Sweden, this even if Sweden have a higher general living standard, according to UN and US statistic. That is also why Americans who live in Sweden generally like it very much and the same for Swedes who live in US. What I want to get to, is that you should avoid to have those unqualified opinions about other countries. It is amazing how a little bit international experiences can make you more humble and appreciate that we are all people that basically like each other, once when we get the opportunity to meet. There are also many very good places to live, independent of what you think of their political label. Visited Vietnam last year and it was amazing how Americanized and unsafe the south still was, compared to the north. As a whole, it was a very positive experience and interesting to see the places that I for years followed in the news. They will develop fast and in a positive direction. Hakan At 17:16 13/08/2005, you wrote: Keith, I think you are confusing what I said. I perfectly agreed with you that the U.S. is not a charitable organization, and does take much more than it gives (here and abroad). I can't speak for other developing nations, as I have only lived in the U.S. (answering Harkan's question in another email). But I expect you are correct about that too. And the end result is an even bigger gap between the haves and the have-nots. The charity I was referring to is when individuals like your or I give something (money, food, clothing, medicine, etc.) to someone else, without expecting anything in return. It would be nice to know that if I send a dollar to help provide clean water to a village in Sudan, that 90 cents isn't being sucked up by some U.S. corporation before it even gets there. Thanks, Earl. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] No it is not charity, and this is the point you miss, I hope it's through ignorance rather than convenience, but I think it's already been pointed out to you. There is LOTS about it in the archives, and the gist of it is that all the industrialised nations, the so-called developed nations, and especially the US, take VERY much more than they give to poor countries, and even the giving, in the form of aid, is often or usually tied to benefiting commercial interests in the donor countries rather than benefiting poor people at the receiving end as alleged. All they get dumped on them is harsh neo-liberalism and yet more imported poverty. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energyefficiencies
Hi Keith , Andrew, Thanks for the dialogue. I will update my info on Pimentel's work. If he has indeed allowed bias to influence him to the detriment of honest inquiry I will be glad to endorse your criticism. Keep the thoughts flowing, Bob A. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energyefficiencies Hello Bob, Andrew Normally I'd agree with you Bob, but not in Pimentel's case, that time was long ago, and now Andrew's response is not inappropriate. Pimentel merits little better than scorn and derision Andrew, I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your sarcasm regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding scientists, is to support the ignorant critics of good science who argue that, if I believe in a proposition, then anyone who presents evidence that contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not to be believed. It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills will (for a fee) produce a scientific study supporting any industry-desired conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is such an Exxon shill is blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see it on the Biofuels site. I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy input) to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we approach the end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of other folks. I'm sure also that David Pimentel shares that wish. The difference between you and Pimentel is that as a scientist, he says, It's a great idea and I hope it's true, but what if it isn't? So let's run the numbers and seek the truth of the matter. If it turns out the EROEI is negative, we would be commiting a cruel and expensive hoax on the nation to propose ethanol as an energy solution. Not so, sad to say. Pimentel has long been aware that the data he uses is outdated and wrong, but he keeps using it anyway. Implying that he's an Exxon-et al shill is not blatant slander, the question has to be asked why he continues doing this, and asked of his publishers too. This is peer review? I think not. It certainly is not science. It's propaganda. I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a negative EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies testing and challenging his conclusion. Those have been to hand for a long time, more and more of them, debunking every aspect of Pimentel's claims. Pimentel takes no notice, neither do his publishers. But to lampoon his work because you don't like the color of - was it his socks? - is not a worthy act on your part. Well, I don't know, I suppose we can take his socks about as seriously as the rest of him. Nothing new here - we've been discussing Pimentel's repeated and rather successful disinformation campaign since early 2001. As John said when he posted this latest bout, he does it every year. Please see these recent messages, to put it in perspective: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52605.html Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficien http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52756.html Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficienc Best wishes Keith I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will. In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more benign, Bob A. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies Michael wrote: This press release below produced the AP story that follows it. July 5, 2005 Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy By Susan S. Lang Chris Hallman/University Photography Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University [snip] Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke seriously? I ask you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has anyone checked for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of The Goodies where they where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets - aahhh I see it - if you squint at the part between his left leg and the car I'm sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.. ;) Yours in jest, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
[Biofuel] Seeking info on www.electricitybook.com
Hi all, Doing a bit of due diligence. Does anyone have experience with Bill Anderson at this URL or with any of the advertised publications regarding authenticity, accuracy, and usefulness? I could find no hit in the archives. Best, Bob Adams ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hey! Let's outsource the pres...
please bear with me. I'm learning the lingo , but que dice ROFLMAO? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hey! Let's outsource the pres... ROFLMAO! keith strikes again. i rather expect sadam would love the job. he could install himself as chief justice and open the doors of all the prisons; pardon the rest of the '52 most wanted'; bomb israel; invade saudi arabia and re-occupy kuwait; etc. not to mention there'd no longer be need for even the thinnest pretense of an independent iraqui government. g-dubya would be apoplectic with jealousy. -chris b. In a message dated 8/3/05 1:08:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Er, Saddam's address IS the US embassy or consulate, isn't it?) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hey! Let's outsource the pres...
Thanks , John. I like that one. Bob A. - Original Message - From: John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hey! Let's outsource the pres... Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off For future reference, here is a good place to start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang#Common_Internet_slang jh William Adams wrote: please bear with me. I'm learning the lingo , but que dice ROFLMAO? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hey! Let's outsource the pres... ROFLMAO! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies
Andrew, I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your sarcasm regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding scientists, is to support the ignorant critics of good science who argue that, if I believe in a proposition, then anyone who presents evidence that contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not to be believed. It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills will (for a fee) produce a scientific study supporting any industry-desired conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is such an Exxon shill is blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see it on the Biofuels site. I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy input) to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we approach the end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of other folks. I'm sure also that David Pimentel shares that wish. The difference between you and Pimentel is that as a scientist, he says, It's a great idea and I hope it's true, but what if it isn't? So let's run the numbers and seek the truth of the matter. If it turns out the EROEI is negative, we would be commiting a cruel and expensive hoax on the nation to propose ethanol as an energy solution. I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a negative EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies testing and challenging his conclusion. But to lampoon his work because you don't like the color of - was it his socks? - is not a worthy act on your part. I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will. In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more benign, Bob A. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies Michael wrote: This press release below produced the AP story that follows it. July 5, 2005 Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel from corn and other crops is not worth the energy By Susan S. Lang Chris Hallman/University Photography Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University [snip] Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke seriously? I ask you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has anyone checked for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of The Goodies where they where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets - aahhh I see it - if you squint at the part between his left leg and the car I'm sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.. ;) Yours in jest, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Savonius Super Rotor
The pronunciation I have always heard is "Sah-von-ee-us" Regards, Bob A. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Savonius Super Rotor "Savonius Super Rotor" I've seen these around but, never knew what they were called. So, is it pronounced Sav-own-e-us or Sav-on-e-us? MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.motherearthnews.com/top_articles/1974_March_April/The_Savon ius_Super_RotorThe Savonius Super Rotor, by Michael Hackleman, Mother Earth News, Issue # 26 - March/April 1974___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel
Chris, Many thanks. Bob A. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel hi, bob. wvo = waste vegetable oil svo = straight vegetable oil biod = biodiesel dino = petroleum-based fuel (or so i infer) e85 = 85% ethanol fuel (the norm in the u.s.a. is 10% max) e100 = 100% ethanol vw diesel simply refers to a vw diesel. i think that about covers it. -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel
Anyone: Is there a glossary link for newbies explaining such acronyms as WVO, SVO, Dino, VW Diesel, etc.? Bob A - Original Message - From: Lyn Gerry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel I went to the site that Keith recommended and it looks fantastic. What this maker Elsbett sells is a one tank system you can put anything from WVO to Dino into. If such a system exists, why are people bothing to make biodiesel? It would be easier, more ecological, economical etc to just use vegetable oil. I think about this problem both in the ecolological sense and the Peak oil sense. Particularly with the latter, the fewer things you have to buy, the less exposure you have to being gouged by corporations exploiting scarcity. Anyone with access to a few acres of land and a home made oil press can create fuel out of a variety of easy to grow crops. Am I missing something? Lyn Elsbett. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel Don't get some two-tank system that probably has copper parts in it and all it does is pre-heat the oil to lower the viscosity, there's a lot more to it than that, even with a Merc. forgetting to) - switch on and go, stop and switch off, SVO, biodiesel or petro-diesel, in any combination. We've had a two-tank system for a couple of years but we never used it. I just didn't think it addressed the problem fully, and the more I learnt the more I thought so. A few months ago we installed a single-tank Elsbett system in our Toyota TownAce and we're most pleased with it. It does exactly what it claims to do, as we fully expected. http://www.elsbett.com Best wishes Keith On 25 Jun 2005 at 8:46, John Hayes wrote: You have the 'SVO destroyed my TDI' folks. And the 'SVO is just fine' pollyannas. I went to the TDIclub site as well. I probably only saw a fraction of the posts, and what I saw made me realize that I didn't really do Mike's question justice with my previous answer, so this will be long in an attempt to provide more substantive info. I researched WVO for a while and decided upon the Jetta TDI, which I bought specifically with the intent of doing a WVO conversion. I chose the Jetta even though the golf or beetle would have been more to my personal taste, because the consensus seemed to be that it was desirable to isolate the WVO tank from the passenger area because the tank is heated - a hot metal tank of oil being not the most desirable presence in a passenger compartment There are a variety of systems and kits and ways that people have done these conversions and I have no doubt people have ruined their TDI's with WVO. The TDI has very close tolerances, also why it its such a high performance engine. From what I have gathered, gumming up the injectors with WVO is one of the serious risks. Critical issues in the system then are well filtered WVO and that it be HOT. Just to clarify matters for any readers, a WVO system is a 2 tank system. Do not ever consider just pouring WVO into your regular fuel tank - that will destroy your TDI. The system I have has : a heated WVO tank and fuel lines (the lines are heated by being bundled beside a line filled with engine coolant) , a filter for the WVO (which has already been prefiltered the remove the obvious particulate fryer gunk before being put in the tank) This filter should be replaced approximately every 2000 miles, and a PURGE switch. The purge switch is a very important part of the system. It is used when switching *back* to diesel from WVO. It pushes the WVO out of the lines and injectors. If you purge for too long, you begin to suck diesel fuel into your WVO tank, but ithat's not really not a problem. The *problem* in a WVO system *without* a purge function arises because, if the WVO is not completely cleared from the engine components , you will begin to dump some WVO into the diesel tank when you shut off the car. After a while, your diesel will be contaminated with WVO. The reason why this is a problem is because your diesel tank is not heated and the WVO is too viscous at room temperature to flow through the injectors properly. The WVO must be at 190 degrees F to liquify it adequately. I am not a car mechanic, and the above description is what I've gained from online research and conversations, and this was the data I used to decide whether and what conversion I would do. Hope this helps. Lyn And the professional 'we need more scientific data' skeptics. And the 'yes, we need data but your studies are too old' counter-skeptics. Yup. I think that about sums it up. jh Keith Addison wrote: Hello John Just FYI, there is a major debate on SVO use raging at TDIclub.com right now. It's actually spilled over into 3 different threads in the biodiesel section of the forums(sic).
Re: [Biofuel] Bio-Oil refineries
manufacture? Bob A - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Bio-Oil refineries Coming to a small town near you? Bio-Oil refineries By Jonathan Eisenthal, special correspondent 05/03/2005 http://www.mncorn.org Crude oil-petroleum-contains literally hundreds of chemicals that can be refined and processed into countless products, everything from gasoline to tar to plastic. Within the next few years, a renewable, biomass product with similar promise Bio-oil-may reach commercial viability. Bio-oil would likely mimic the development of petroleum, with researchers over the coming decades working steadily and discovering hundreds of uses for the stuff. Its first use - the one driving current research - is biomass-based ethanol. Petroleum oil refineries are located close to oil fields or major ports, to reduce the cost of transportation. Bio-Oil refineries would likely arise in rural America, just as ethanol plants have, in order to be close to the cheapest, highest quality feedstock-biomass. But what is Bio-oil? Take biomass like corn stover, wheat grass, rice straw, or other organic matter and heat it in an environment deprived of oxygen, and you produce Bio-oil, according to Ted Aulich, director of the National Alternative Fuels Laboratory at the University of North Dakota's Energy and Environmental Research Center. When materials are heated in the absence of oxygen, Aulich says, pyrolysis takes place-rather than burning the material, the process loosens and breaks chemical bonds, and produces a substance called bio-oil. Aulich is conducting research on bio-oil as a means of using 'lignacellulosic' materials to produce ethanol. Lignin, hemicellulose and cellulose are the components of the fibrous parts of plants. These parts of plants have plenty of sugars stored within them but these are not readily accessible for processing into valuable chemical products. Six carbon sugars versus five carbon sugars A grain such as corn contains sugar molecules with six carbon atoms bonded together in the molecule, whereas lignacullulosic materials have five carbon sugars. Fermentation can make easy use of six-carbon sugar molecules, but five-carbon sugars are another story. Think of what would happen if you give a kid a spoon full of sugar, said Aulich. You would have him hopping around with a nearly instant burst of energy. If you fed him a potato instead, you would get a slight rise in energy about an hour after he ate. If you gave him a piece of cardboard to chew on, we would never get any energy out of it-that cardboard is cellulose. It contains sugars, but they just aren't accessible to human digestion. Ordinary fermentation also cannot make use of five-carbon sugars, but a number of high-tech processes are in the research phase, which could offer solutions and make that sugar available for distilling alcohol. Investing in research The Governor's Ethanol Coalition-a group of 27 state governors along with the governments of a number of foreign nations-issued a report in April called Ethanol From Biomass, America's 21st Century Transportation Fuel. [http://www.ethanol-gec.org/coalitionstudies.htm] The GEC called for reaching at least 8 billion gallons of annual use of corn-based ethanol and soybean-based biodiesel, but also articulated a goal of replacing a total of ten percent of the fossil fuel supply with renewable energy. In order to do that without putting undue pressure on grain markets, the report argues that the U.S. must pursue research and development of biomass ethanol, which would process cellulose materials like corn stover into fuel alcohol. The GEC called on the federal government to invest $800 million over ten years in biomass ethanol RD. Bio-oil represents an alternative approach to biomass ethanol. A good deal of the research going on now focuses on using enzymes produced by particular bacteria species to metabolize the five carbon sugars in lignacellulose, to make it available for fermentation. This very promising line of investigation is being carried forward by companies well known in the renewable energy field, like Novozymes and Genencore in the U.S. and Iogen in Canada. All these directions in energy research promise to add economic vitality to America's rural areas, by offering methods to create additional revenue streams for farmers and bring a diverse industry made up of many types of clean energy production to a small town near you. --- Understanding Biomass as a Source of Sugars and Energy http://www.eere.energy.gov/biomass/understanding_biomass.html http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/websites/www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/understanding_biomass.html ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net
