Re: [biofuel] Permits required to collect used vegetable oil?

[GeorgeLola]

I called the state Department of Transportation (DOT)and Kansas 
Corporate Commission (KCC).  They both told me that in KS WVO is not 
considered toxic.  That no permits, placards, or licenses were needed. 
Now in PA I have no idea what their law is.

George

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One of the taverns I collect used oil from told me that they were
> recently told that anyone collecting their used oil had to have a
> permit. This "helpful" person then offered to take their oil, for a
> fee. Since I take it for free, the owner told the guy to take a hike.
> However, this got me wondering.
> 
> Does any know if their state requires such a permit. Anyone from
> Pennsylvania that knows if PA requires such a permit? I just spent a
> significant amout of "quality time" at Pennsylvania's DEP website and
> could find nothing about used fryer oil, but that doesn't necessarily
> mean anything.
> 
> 
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Re: [biofuel] Sources of methanol in teh US?

[GeorgeLola]

>  >> What are Univar, and Allpro?  I was hoping for a common use source so
> that I could find it locally

They are companies that sell chemical.  I am mistaken about Univar, they 
only deal with large accounts.  All Pro is a company that sells racing 
fuel (methanol).  You can get NaOH in drain cleaner but the price is 
very high.  From Univar it was .42 cents (US) per pound, delivered. I 
also have got NaOh from Brenntag, another company that deals in NaOH, 
KOH, and methanol. The race car fuel people have always been the 
cheapest source.

George




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Re: [biofuel] Sources of methanol in teh US?

[GeorgeLola]

I get mine from Univar and All Pro.  I think All Pro just got brought 
out so the name might be different now.  They deal in racing equipment 
and the like

George

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Well,
> I'm ready to make a couple of test batches of biodiesel, and I just wonder
> what are some good sources of methanol, common places that would carry it
> that Iwouldn't have to order over the internet for, and deal with those
> nasty HAZMAT shipping fees.  I know someone mentioned methyl hydrate as a
> good source for small batches, but that was in Canada.  What is it used
> for and where can I find it?  Thanks so much,
> J.D.
> 
> 
> 
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[biofuel] Layer of Jelly

[GeorgeLola]

Hello Everybody

I made a container of biodiesel from some very crappy restraunt oil.
It had a large amount of water, lots of fryings and stuff I don't
know what was.  I filtered it through a cloth filter, and then heated
it to 215 degrees F and held it for a few minutes before cooling it
off. Titration was 6

After it had set for 24 hours it had a layer of jelly on top about a
cm in depth.  This layer was the same color as the biodiesel that was
under it. Clear cut line between the biodiesel and the glycern on the
bottom.

What caused this layer of jelly like stuff on top of my biodiesel in
my settling tank?

George




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RE: Re: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945

[georgelola]

"steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Those who say that ethanol is not net energy positive, never distilled a
>drop.
>
>It is net energy positive. Like anything, it can be done badly.
>
>energy in < energy out.

(snip)

My wife and I visited the Reeves AgriEnergy Company in Garden City KS a few 
weeks back.  The spokesman said at the time it took 36,000 purchased BTU's to 
make a gallon of anhydrous alcohol and that a gallon of anhydrous alcohol (I 
can't remember) somewhere around 70,000 BTU's in it.

He also said they sold anhydrous alcohol for .97 cents (US) a gallon.  This 
does not include any road or sales tax.

George

>
>Steve Spence
>Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
>http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm
>
>Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
>Human powered devices, equipment, and transport -
>http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- Original Message -
>From: "Curtis Sakima" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 9:27 PM
>Subject: [biofuel] Dumb Question Was: Digest Number 945
>
>
>> I have this "dumb" question .. but it's always buggin'
>> me.
>>
>> Ethanol is always spoken of as "not energy efficient".
>>  I take to mean that more energy needs to be poured in
>> than comes out in the form of ethanol.
>>
>> Got THAT.  Makes sense ... since ethanol is sort of an
>> "energy carrier"  energy-in minus
>> less-than-100%-efficiency equal smaller energy-out.
>>
>> My dumb question is that ... why not build a AE power
>> plant next to it??  Like a solar, hydro, wind or
>> whatever??  Then use the ethanol as an "energy
>> carrier".  To "liquefy" the AE's output to a storable
>> form.  I can't understand why the argument goes to
>> "not energy efficient" and then DIES right there.
>> I mean, the ethanol plant is a stationary plant ... it
>> doesn't move anywhere!!
>>
>>
>> My second thing is just a comment.  They always say
>> that "the emission controls with ethanol would be more
>> complicated".  But I think that's only because the
>> vehicle is trying to be dual-fueled.
>>
>> I used to work on LPG/gasoline vehicle and the only
>> reason for the complication is that the emission
>> controls had to switch back -n- forth when it is
>> dual-fueled.
>>
>> I think if it were only optimized for one fuel (like
>> ethanol, things would be just fine.
>>
>> Curtis
>>
>>
>> --- Jeremy Shuey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> --snip
>> Ethanol is an alcohol fuel (and motor-fuel additive
>> derived from corn; thus it is touted as a way to help
>> end America's dependence upon Middle Eastern oil, as
>> well as a means of helping the environment.
>>
>> But ethanol is no environmental panacea; nor is it
>> energy-efficient. Far from it. Producing ethanol is
>> costly and complex, and uses up more oil-based energy
>> resources than the gasoline and other motor fuels it
>> would ostensibly replace.
>>
>> And burning ethanol in an internal-combustion engine
>> creates environmental problems, too, which add to the
>> complexity of the air-quality problem by throwing yet
>> another variable into the emissions-control equation.
>> Multiple types of fuel, and different requirements
>> regarding fuel additives, make it harder for the auto
>> industry to develop effective new emissions-control
>> equipment. Different fuel types and additive packages
>> can (and do) compromise the effectiveness and
>> long-term durability of the emissions-control
>> equipment already in service.
>>
>>
>> =
>> Join the Revolution!
>> http://thincnet.com/revolution9/downline/vdownline.html?9107
>>
>> __
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>> LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
>> http://launch.yahoo.com
>>
>>
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>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>


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RE: RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[georgelola]

Marc

I would like a copy of that if you would.

George

>> >-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
>> > > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
>> > > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
>> > >
>> > > Marc de Piolenc
>> > > Iligan, Philippines



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RE: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[georgelola]

Mr Beggs

I read your link and noticed that it was dated April 1997.  In the article it 
said that the lawyers for Ethyl thought the lawsuit would be over by year's 
end.  Is this lawsuit over yet and if so, how did this end?

George






"Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Yes, and we in Canada should do the same to Ethyl, eh?
>
>They set the precedent that will now serve Methanex.
>
>See: http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/envronmt/ethyl.htm
>
>
>Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
>www.biofuels.ca
>
>
>
>
>
>
>on 4/30/02 1:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>wrote:
>
>> Hello Keith and everybody
>> 
>> I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless.
>> Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of
>> cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives.  Couldn't 
>> Menthanex
>> be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment.
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello George
>>> 
>>> Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background:
>>> 
>>> http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html
>>> NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001
>>> 
>>> http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015&c=1&s=greider
>>> The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001
>>> 
>>> http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233
>>> Trading Democracy  - January 15, 2002
>>> 
>>> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli
>>> nes-business
>>> Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002
>>> 
>>> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html
>>> Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution
>>> controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.)
>>> 
>>> Best
>>> 
>>> Keith
>>> 
 I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to
 sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE.  This was
 a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the
 NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported
 from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision
 in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in
 California because the state will not be able to ship in enought
 ethanol to meet needs.  Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from
 Canada than ethanol from the Midwest.
 
 Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state.  If plants to produce MTBE
 can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why
 not ethanol plants.  California is one of the largest milk
 produceing states in America so apparently they have cows.  If they
 have cows then they should have some cow feed, right.  That should
 be about all that is needed to produce ethanol.
 
 Or maybe a little closer to the truth.  Everybody knows that the
 American government is in bed with big oil.  Maybe Feinstein and the
 N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they
 can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some
 Democrats as well as all Republicans.  The hell with America, the
 hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do
 what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians.
 
 I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy
 foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US.  I forget the
 numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of
 America's dependence on foreign oil.  I would have to think that
 this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote
 this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts.
 Just that they were American jobs.  Even if it was only produced in
 the Midwest it would be good for the whole country.
 
 George
 
 
 
 
> Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these
> states Do they not have ports to import "cheap" corn to make ETOH?
> Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support
> building a pipeline down from Alaska.
> 
> I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of
> a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to
> realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have
> enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying
> for them for a while and its only getting better.
> 
> Come on "Coasties" put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to
> make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program.
> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __
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RE: RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[georgelola]

Hello Keith and everybody

I read the links you sent, it kinda leaves a man speechless.
Wouldn't you think that California could counter sue Methanex for the cost of 
cleaning up the pollution and for endangering human lives.  Couldn't Menthanex 
be held accountable for what it's chemical did to the enviroment.

George



Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Hello George
>
>Good points you make. The company's called Methanex. Here's some background:
>
>http://ens-news.com/ens/sep2001/2001L-09-07-09.html
>NAFTA used to challenge environmental laws - September 7, 2001
>
>http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011015&c=1&s=greider
>The Right and US Trade Law: Invalidating the 20th Century - October 15, 2001
>
>http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12233
>Trading Democracy  - January 15, 2002
>
>http://www.latimes.com/business/la-09237feb06.story?coll=la-headli 
>nes-business
>Ban on MTBE Induces Suit Using NAFTA Provision - February 6, 2002
>
>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101020325-218330,00.html
>Toxic Trade? A Canadian chemical firm says California's pollution 
>controls violate NAFTA rules - Mar. 25, 2002 (Access ain't free.)
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>>I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to 
>>sue the state of California because they had banned MTBE.  This was 
>>a Canadian company and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the 
>>NAFTA agreement. I would take this to mean that MTBE is imported 
>>from Canada. California Senator Feinstein says the ethanol provision 
>>in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price skyrocket in 
>>California because the state will not be able to ship in enought 
>>ethanol to meet needs.  Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from 
>>Canada than ethanol from the Midwest.
>>
>>Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state.  If plants to produce MTBE 
>>can be constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why 
>>not ethanol plants.  California is one of the largest milk 
>>produceing states in America so apparently they have cows.  If they 
>>have cows then they should have some cow feed, right.  That should 
>>be about all that is needed to produce ethanol.
>>
>>Or maybe a little closer to the truth.  Everybody knows that the 
>>American government is in bed with big oil.  Maybe Feinstein and the 
>>N.Y. senators as well, are simply coming up with every excuse they 
>>can to protect their true interests. Apparently big oil own some 
>>Democrats as well as all Republicans.  The hell with America, the 
>>hell with California and New York, these people are just out to do 
>>what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians.
>>
>>I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy 
>>foreign products we lose so many jobs in the US.  I forget the 
>>numbers but it was staggering how many jobs are lost because of 
>>America's dependence on foreign oil.  I would have to think that 
>>this would include MTBE from Canada as well. The people who wrote 
>>this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the coasts. 
>>Just that they were American jobs.  Even if it was only produced in 
>>the Midwest it would be good for the whole country.
>>
>>George
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these
>> >states Do they not have ports to import "cheap" corn to make ETOH?
>> >Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support
>> >building a pipeline down from Alaska.
>> >
>> >I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of
>> >a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to
>> >realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have
>> >enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying
>> >for them for a while and its only getting better.
>> >
>> >Come on "Coasties" put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to
>> >make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program.
>> >
>
>


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RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[georgelola]

I heard sometime back that the company that made MTBE was going to sue the 
state of California because they had banned MTBE.  This was a Canadian company 
and that the MTBE ban was in violation of the NAFTA agreement. I would take 
this to mean that MTBE is imported from Canada. California Senator Feinstein 
says the ethanol provision in the energy bill will cause a gasoline price 
skyrocket in California because the state will not be able to ship in enought 
ethanol to meet needs.  Why is it any easier to meet MTBE needs from Canada 
than ethanol from the Midwest.

Or maybe MTBE is manufactured in state.  If plants to produce MTBE can be 
constructed to make MTBE in large enought quanities, then why not ethanol 
plants.  California is one of the largest milk produceing states in America so 
apparently they have cows.  If they have cows then they should have some cow 
feed, right.  That should be about all that is needed to produce ethanol.

Or maybe a little closer to the truth.  Everybody knows that the American 
government is in bed with big oil.  Maybe Feinstein and the N.Y. senators as 
well, are simply coming up with every excuse they can to protect their true 
interests. Apparently big oil own some Democrats as well as all Republicans.  
The hell with America, the hell with California and New York, these people are 
just out to do what is best for themselves. Typicial politicians.

I read somewhere that for every million dollars we spend to buy foreign 
products we lose so many jobs in the US.  I forget the numbers but it was 
staggering how many jobs are lost because of America's dependence on foreign 
oil.  I would have to think that this would include MTBE from Canada as well. 
The people who wrote this report didn't say just jobs in the Midwest or on the 
coasts.  Just that they were American jobs.  Even if it was only produced in 
the Midwest it would be good for the whole country.

George




>Why are there no ethanol plants in NY,CA? does nothing grow in these
>states Do they not have ports to import "cheap" corn to make ETOH?
>Does California produce all their own dino-fuel, or did they support
>building a pipeline down from Alaska.
>
>I think there ought to be an added tax on any Ethanol shipped out of
>a state else the people that paid for these plants are not going to
>realize the cost savings of local production. Why doesn't CA have
>enough ethanol plants, the Federal Gov't has been begging and paying
>for them for a while and its only getting better.
>
>Come on "Coasties" put on your thinking caps and figure out ways to
>make ethanol and biodiesel and get with the program.
>
>


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[biofuel] Hydrous Gasohol

[georgelola]

Hello Everybody

I have read in every book I have read on the production of fuel grade ethanol 
that you have to use anhydrous ethanol to produce gasohol.  Or the water will 
fall out and when it reachs your carb or injector system, burn very lousy, if 
at all.

My question is; If I made some gasohol with hydrous ethanol how long would it 
take for the water to fall out?  Would it require a trigger like a (drop or 
increase)in temperature, or pressure or would it just fall out on it's own, 
naturally.

My thinking is this, hydrous ethanol (let's say 180 proof) is a lot cheaper  
and faster to make than anhydrous.  Mix the hydrous ethanol with your gasoline 
and let it set until the water falls out and then drain the water off.  Move 
the gaohol to another storage tank and start working on the next batch. Just 
eliminate the drying part.

Any ideas or thoughts are welcome
George
 


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[biofuel] Warren Still Design

[georgelola]

Hello Keith

A few days back someone posted a message that said that a Robert Warren had 
still design plans for sale and to check out your Journeys to Forevers web 
site.  The article was under the name .../ethanol robert1.html.

I have searched your site for Robert Warren and all combinations theirof.

The message didn't have an email address, phone number or a mail address to 
contact Mr Warren at.

Could you tell me how to contact Mr Warren to purchase the plans for his still.

Thanks
George

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RE: Re: [biofuel] $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC

[georgelola]

Harmon

I have always believed that studies show the politics of the payee.  In my 
world anyways, small farmers are at a very large disadvange.  Many years ago I 
was a dairy farmer.  I started out with 20 cows.  Went good for a few years, 
then had to buy 10 more cows, then 10 more and then 10 more.  Finally said the 
hell with it when Reagon got to be president and sold them all.

Your study was done by someone who was paid to do it.  Small farmers are 
selling out by droves now.  They simply can't do it with the prices and costs 
the way they are.  All the studies in the world won't save all the guys in the 
High Plains Journal who are advertizing their farm sales. I have read them as 
well, I just know better from experience of living it.

Regards
George


 

Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Seems like there was a post here just awhile back on a study done which 
> showed big farms (and they weren't
>talking about organic) just weren't able to make it as well as smaller farms, 
>and IIRC, it was around the 200
>acre point where things started going down. So sell some land, buy some cows 
>and pigs and chickens and
>diversify, get rid of the chemicals and giant (ultra-expensive) machinery. 
>You'll make just as much money, live
>longer, and be happier. Don't sell the corn, feed it to the pigs, or make 
>ethanol, or -- whatever. It's a
>ridiculous idea to farm corn when corn is the cheapest heating fuel on the 
>market. 
>   Sorry, George, I just don't have much sympathy for the American farmer, for 
> the most part. I think if we can
>get the gov't to stop all the crop subsidies and other forms of corporate 
>welfare, the organic/chemical
>arguement would end pretty quickly. Farmers have been conned, swindled, 
>bamboozled, by the banks, the chemical
>companies, ag agents, and ag schools (who all work for chemical companies 
>essentially). 
>   Hey, I saw the same thing happening in the logging industry -- guys got 
> conned into buying all that new fancy
>equipment then lost their shirt when NAFTA came along. The banker tried to 
>talk me into it -- I didn't even ask
>for a loan, he approached me. I just kept logging with my old crawler, and 
>when the crunch came I just sold it
>all and went back to school. I really like the way the Amish do it -- no debt. 
>And they definitely do make
>money, pay cash for their farms. 
>   
>
>
>
>On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 04:50:56PM -0600, George & Lola Wesel wrote:
>> I would say that is a very fair question. If it was possible I would.
>> 
>> I know several organic farmer and they don't laugh all the way to the 
>> bank. That is just an image they would like everybody to believe. In 
>> order to reach the production goals required by today financial needs, 
>> organic don't cut it.  Not even close.  Zero Input Sustainable 
>> Agriculture (name used by the US government) is just a dream of the 
>> extreme left wing enviromentalist.  Looks good, sounds good but not 
>> feastable. You need to draw a clear line between those that do organic 
>> farming with an acre or so and those who farm on the x,000 acres plus. 
>> To grow a couple of hundred corn plants on 1/2 acre and then petal the 
>> roasting ears to people who you meet on the street is probably very 
>> profitable but your going to need a job on the side.  With a 27,000 
>> population per acre and 1000 acres of corn that's 27,000,000 roasting 
>> ears. This is but one big problem. The places that broker organic food 
>> are not capable of handling large volume. The market just isn't their yet.
>> 
>> Do you have a clue how much manure it takes to equal 250 pounds of NH3. 
>> The average amount of nirtrogen put on an acre of irrigated corn here in 
>> KS. Or how many cows it would take to produce enough manure to fertilize 
>> 1000 acres of irrigated corn. The reason I say irrigated is that dryland 
>> corn here in KS is a "iffy" crop at best. This doesn't even touch on the 
>> labor required to load, haul, and spread the manure or the costs 
>> involved. To use manure would not only be labor intensely, but terribly 
>> costly as well.  I would lose my butt big time to use all manure. They 
>> say rotate your crops.  Yes, alfalfa does put a little nitrogen into the 
>> soil.  But not nearly enough to grow 200 bu per acre corn. I do rotate 
>> my crops, especially my dryland crops but I do rotate my irrigated as 
>> well.  To keep the chemical costs to a minmium. On a very small farm, an 
>> acre or so, organic is the only way to go.  Their are organic farms up 
>> to 100 acres or so.  But their not profitable, just diehard, stubborn 
>> "Gonna do it organic" types.  They would do it even if they were 
>> starving. If I can't produce in the 175 and up range then I won't be 
>> here next year. Someone else will be farming my farm and he won't be 
>> organic.
>> 
>> For chemicals their is no organic replacement.  They simplely let the 
>> bugs chow down.  Diease is uncontrollable except by rotation. 

RE: [biofuel] $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC

[georgelola]

Hello J Hyde
I will!  If you have something to say just get in their and say it.  Do try to 
understand this is a big world and all of us have our own opinions.

George


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>george please look at www.acresusa.com. It is a monthly paper on alternitive 
>farming of all sizes. This is a first time post for me (had to do it). Acres 
>helped us in the community gardens in detroit and a 300 acre farm in the 
>thumb of Michigan.  Regards   John Hyde 
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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RE: Re: [biofuel] $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC

[georgelola]

Hello Keith

I don't disagree as much as you would think.  This is definitly on topic 
because agriculture will power the green revolution.  Biofuels are our future 
and I hope your right about organic farming being their as well.

I have one very big problem with small organic farms feeding the world.  How 
will they acquire the land.  Government take over by the people maybe. This is 
a free country and land is very high priced. And no, I am not a Freeman.

As for large farms they are suited to large scale production.  I can argue the 
point both ways on efficiently. Which is better, a large farm that produces a 
lot at a lower cost or a small farm that produces a lower volume but at a 
higher quality.  This could be argued for years.

I can't quote any studies.  I can't talk about anywhere except here in KS. The 
people that try to do it here are not competitive with the conventionals.  
Anywhere but here could be different.  So once again I hope your right.

I do not believe conventional farming is on the right track. I don't know if 
organic will work and if it works can it produce enough to feed the world. 
Conventional agriculture could easily bury the world in grain if the government 
would turn us loose. But then all the farmers this year would be gone and who 
would do it next year. I do know their are lots of hungry people in the world 
and here I am setting on a large pile of corn and a pathetic low price.  Their 
hungry and the American farmer is broke.  Don't that make one hell of a pair.

The reason everybody plants one crops is money.  You plant what will make the 
most money and hope to survive. Right now that is corn.  The only reason I 
plant wheat is so I can plant corn on the stubble next year.  The only reason I 
plant soybeans is so I can rotate my crops to reduce my input costs.  I hope 
everybody can see that this is not simple.  Their is no quick fixes and we will 
always have problems.  As the world population grows I can't help but feel that 
our problems will grow as well or be replaced by other problems.  We have the 
ability to grow the food, conventional or organic but we need a better way to 
distribute it to the poorer countries.  Something where they can afford to buy 
and the farmer can afford to sell.

My Regards
George






Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Hi George
>
>Before some list-cop starts yelling "Off-topic", I believe it's 
>on-topic enough. Is this a way to dispense with all the huge 
>petroleum inputs in food and ag commodity production in the US (and 
>other industrialised countries) that Dana's just been talking about, 
>and that skew the energy equations of biofuels like biodiesel and 
>ethanol?
>
>Short answer - Yes.
>
>You're not really talking about organic farming, you're talking about 
>input substitution - chemical farming without the chemicals - and 
>it's usually doomed to failure. Organics is a management system, and 
>proactive, not just a matter of a different set of inputs to achieve 
>the same reactive aims. It looks upstream to determine why the 
>problem exists in the first place and then determines how the system 
>should be managed to avoid having the problem at all. Most organic 
>farmers in the US don't use any pesticides at all, whether approved 
>organic ones or not - they don't need them. They don't use 
>"fertilisers" either, to feed the crop, and they're not too 
>interested in nutrients. They're interested in humus-maintenance, in 
>building and maintaining very high levels of soil fertility, and in 
>integration. It's an integrated system, not just an extractive one - 
>"organic" in this sense doesn't really refer to the source of the 
>inputs (whatever the "standards" might say), it refers to a system 
>characterised by the coordination of the integral parts; organised. 
>It's a different approach, not just a stepping over to 
>business-as-usual with different ingredients.
>
>To borrow a couple of useful terms from another organic farmer, your 
>comparisons are with "organic by neglect" farms - low-input 
>low-output - rather than "organic by design" farms - low-input 
>high-output.
>
>Many organic farmers equal or better their "conventional" neighbours' 
>yields. There are many large organic farms that do indeed run at a 
>healthy enough profit - but no, they tend not to grow a thousand 
>acres in a monocrop. But I tend to agree that very large farms aren't 
>suited to organic management. I'm not quite sure what they are suited 
>to.
>
>"Small family and part-time farms are at least as efficient as larger 
>commercial operations. There is evidence of diseconomies of scale as 
>farm size increases." -- "Are Large Farms More Efficient?" Professor 
>Willis L. Peterson, University of Minnesota, 1997.
>
>Re your statement that "organic farming cannot feed the world", 
>there's now a lot of considered, studied, expert opinion and evidence 
>that not only can it do just that, but it's going to have to. This 
>isn't just a 

RE: Re: [biofuel] $7.5 Million Feedstock Subsidy for SSPC

[georgelola]

Harmon

If I could get out of the taxes this would generate, I would have done that a 
long time ago.  Just a dream now.  Remember that vicious circle I wrote about. 
Their is more than one, not only have to keep getting bigger, but the bigger I 
get the more it will cost to quit.

Good idea though, I really like it

George
Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   Wait, George, don't sell that land, I've got a better idea. Take maybe 250 
> acres of it and go to a
>diversified organic farm, as I said. Take the other 750 and plant it all to 
>switchgrass, big and little
>bluestem, side-oats gamma, compass plant and prairie dock, coneflower, and all 
>the other prairie plants native
>to your area. Then sell all that big equipment you won't need anymore, and 
>stock that 750 acres with buffalo and
>prairie chickens. Set up your own little packing plant (powered by wind) and 
>have "sportsman" come hunt-for-pay
>the buffalo and prairie chickens, you butcher and wrap and freeze for them. 
>  You'll get rich. Or at least have a fairly comfortable life, eventually 
> you'll convert another 200 acres to
>prairie, and organic truck farm the last 40 or so to sell organic veggies and 
>herbs to go with that organic
>buffalo and prairie chicken. 
>
>
>-- 
>Harmon Seaver   
>CyberShamanix
>http://www.cybershamanix.com
>
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