[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Large and Small, All on the Same Team-- Was Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Hello James Sorry, I just had to responde to something you said about the DIY'rs sullying the image of BD??!! It arose from this statement from Graham Noyes of World Energy, which he's been asked several times to substantiate, but has avoided doing so: The big fear of the biodiesel industry is that homebrewers are going to destroy the market. I have seen home-brewed biodiesel cause problems in multiple locations and it has taken significant efforts to undo the damage. One region of the country in particular had large quantities of homegrown off-spec fuel that was being sold and distributed. The use of biodiesel was substantially delayed in this area until trust for the fuel was re-established. The biodiesel industry has gone to major efforts and expenditure to make progress with the engine manufacturers and to establish the ASTM standard. Frankly, I don't know what percentage of homegrown fuel is in spec but I do read about a lot of goo being produced. Everytime off spec fuel causes a problem, it causes a problem for everyone. I also am aware of at least one prosecution for failure to pay road taxes on homegrown fuel that was sold. I think it is in everyone's interest to recognize that there are differences between homegrown and commercial grade biodiesel. If homegrowers can hit spec and do quality control and test to spec, then they should consider whether they want to comply with the various legal requirements and go commercial. Otherwise they should keep it at home. From: grahamnoyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:58:28 - Subject: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] CALL TO ACTION- USDA CUTTING SUPPORT FORBIODIESEL PRODUCTION Obviously he can't substantiate it. A lot of things about this statement were challenged, he didn't respond to any of the questions raised. He was under pressure, he didn't expect any opposition, if he'd had anything substantial to say he'd have said it. But he just blustered a lot instead In this last weekends class we did a little homebrew test for quality against commerce BD and a batch from the Berkley co-op and they were about the same. If anything, the commerce BD that gets sent for ASTM and EPA testing is prolly from a VERY carefully processed batch, whereas most homebrew is carefully processed with each batch out of necessity (more lovingly ;-) ). I wouldn't say all homebrewers are that concerned with their batches, but to be a DIY'r is in itself a passion, and thus usually more concerned. Thankyou! That's exactly the point, and several people have said so. Several have also compared their much-maligned homebrew with commerce BD and found the same thing, either it's the same as the commerce stuff or better. But people like Noyes refuse to acknowledge such an apparently horrendous possibility. I think we should badger the guy, demand that he substantiate his claims or withdraw them. Put up or shutup. I reckon it's BS, a baseless industry myth that does the whole movement harm. People should stop spreading this sort misinformation. If it's not misinformation, fine, then let's have some details. But leaving it hanging like this is not acceptable. Best Keith James Slayden On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Andrew Hoppin wrote: snip help? Or could they be authentically concerned that a small producer making some mistake in production will sully the image of biodiesel? Other possibilities? Regardless, if you can identify what the root of their problem is, then whether that root cause seems silly or not, and regardless snip Cheers, Andrew The Biofuel Business Development Project http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/ Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact On the Long-Range Future of Humanity Message: 12 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:23:08 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy Hello Andrew I'm would prefer to see a decentralized industry of small producers as well, but my bias is that if we're really going to make a near-term difference in our world in terms of energy security and environmental protection and public health with biodiesel, we need to support any and all companies that are willing to produce and distribute biodiesel, small and large. Cheers, Andrew Um, at the cost of having homebrewers dispensed with by means of a load of BS about us being nothing but a peril who'll bring it all to naught unless we're controlled? Or at least kept firmly in our place (our own backyards)? Though we can be useful... Check back and you'll see that that's basically what Mr Noyes of World Energy was saying. He was asked how many times? Three? Four? - to substantiate his claims that substandard-spec homebrew had caused widespread problems and industry had had to clean up the mess after us. He evaded the
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Large and Small, All on the Same Team-- Was Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Hello Andrew
Thanks for the feedback Keith. Without passing judgement on World Energy
since I haven't done the research (I'll go read up on their conduct now--
thanks for the links), my point is merely that we need to support people and
companies and institutions based on their integrity, actions and
demonstrable potential to succeed at furthering responsible energy
production and consumption, and NOT on the basis of their SIZE.
That's been my view all along, nothing much to do with size (though
it helps!). When you talk about Big Oil or Big Ethanol or Big Soy
you're talking more about a type of corporate behaviour than about
mere size.
I think
there is room for small and large producers, and for them to work together.
That too has been my view all along, and I've put time and effort
into it. And in this case, twice, had it wasted.
Which leads me to this: if World Energy does not agree with this
perspective, then why not? Do you think it is the individuals involved
being shortsighted, or is it simply a reality of the kind of business
they're trying to build that makes small producers more of a threat than a
help? Or could they be authentically concerned that a small producer making
some mistake in production will sully the image of biodiesel? Other
possibilities? Regardless, if you can identify what the root of their
problem is, then whether that root cause seems silly or not, and regardless
of who is responsible for it, perhaps we can address the root cause and
inspire World Energy to be a team playter. No bias or policy is intractible
in my opionion if it fundamentally doesn't make sense, so let's take a look
at it. In my opinion, it is worth it for us to unilaterally take on this
extra work in order to earn the chance to bring as many stakeholders as
possible in this community into alignment. This will ultimately empower us
all.
Well, I guess you'll have a better understanding of it once you've
checked those links.
Best
Keith
Cheers,
Andrew
The Biofuel Business Development Project
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/
Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact
On the Long-Range Future of Humanity
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:23:08 +0900
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Hello Andrew
I'm would prefer to see a decentralized industry of small producers as
well,
but my bias is that if we're really going to make a near-term
difference in
our world in terms of energy security and environmental protection and
public health with biodiesel, we need to support any and all
companies that
are willing to produce and distribute biodiesel, small and large.
Cheers,
Andrew
Um, at the cost of having homebrewers dispensed with by means of a
load of BS about us being nothing but a peril who'll bring it all to
naught unless we're controlled? Or at least kept firmly in our place
(our own backyards)? Though we can be useful... Check back and you'll
see that that's basically what Mr Noyes of World Energy was saying.
He was asked how many times? Three? Four? - to substantiate his
claims that substandard-spec homebrew had caused widespread problems
and industry had had to clean up the mess after us. He evaded the
question each time. He can't substantiate it because it's BS. Not the
only thing he evaded. If you think that will at least stop him making
such unsubstantiated claims, even if he can't quite bring himself to
withdraw them, don't hold your breath.
Noyes, and others like him, couldn't cope with what we actually are
and what we do, as opposed to his patronising idea of us. Have a look
at how he handled the possibility of collaboration with us,
laughable. It's on his terms or nothing, just like the other World
Energy guy who wasted our time with this talk. We're more useful than
these people, and it's them who make it an either-or question, not us.
We're not against industry, that would be foolish, but there's
industry and then there's industry. It's not a case of small vs
large, there's room and need for both, as you say. Some of the big
companies are just fine, no problem at all working with them. But
frankly I think the world needs the likes of World Energy like it
needs a hole in the head.
{snip}
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[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Large and Small, All on the Same Team-- Was Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Sorry, I just had to responde to something you said about the DIY'rs
sullying the image of BD??!!
In this last weekends class we did a little homebrew test for quality
against commerce BD and a batch from the Berkley co-op and they were about
the same. If anything, the commerce BD that gets sent for ASTM and EPA
testing is prolly from a VERY carefully processed batch, whereas most
homebrew is carefully processed with each batch out of necessity (more
lovingly ;-) ). I wouldn't say all homebrewers are that concerned with
their batches, but to be a DIY'r is in itself a passion, and thus usually
more concerned.
James Slayden
On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Andrew Hoppin wrote:
snip
help? Or could they be authentically concerned that a small producer
making
some mistake in production will sully the image of biodiesel? Other
possibilities? Regardless, if you can identify what the root of their
problem is, then whether that root cause seems silly or not, and
regardless
snip
Cheers,
Andrew
The Biofuel Business Development Project
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/
Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact
On the Long-Range Future of Humanity
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:23:08 +0900
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Hello Andrew
I'm would prefer to see a decentralized industry of small producers as
well,
but my bias is that if we're really going to make a near-term
difference in
our world in terms of energy security and environmental protection and
public health with biodiesel, we need to support any and all
companies that
are willing to produce and distribute biodiesel, small and large.
Cheers,
Andrew
Um, at the cost of having homebrewers dispensed with by means of a
load of BS about us being nothing but a peril who'll bring it all to
naught unless we're controlled? Or at least kept firmly in our place
(our own backyards)? Though we can be useful... Check back and you'll
see that that's basically what Mr Noyes of World Energy was saying.
He was asked how many times? Three? Four? - to substantiate his
claims that substandard-spec homebrew had caused widespread problems
and industry had had to clean up the mess after us. He evaded the
question each time. He can't substantiate it because it's BS. Not the
only thing he evaded. If you think that will at least stop him making
such unsubstantiated claims, even if he can't quite bring himself to
withdraw them, don't hold your breath.
Noyes, and others like him, couldn't cope with what we actually are
and what we do, as opposed to his patronising idea of us. Have a look
at how he handled the possibility of collaboration with us,
laughable. It's on his terms or nothing, just like the other World
Energy guy who wasted our time with this talk. We're more useful than
these people, and it's them who make it an either-or question, not us.
We're not against industry, that would be foolish, but there's
industry and then there's industry. It's not a case of small vs
large, there's room and need for both, as you say. Some of the big
companies are just fine, no problem at all working with them. But
frankly I think the world needs the likes of World Energy like it
needs a hole in the head.
{snip}
Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Large and Small, All on the Same Team-- Was Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy
Hello James Sorry, I just had to responde to something you said about the DIY'rs sullying the image of BD??!! It arose from this statement from Graham Noyes of World Energy, which he's been asked several times to substantiate, but has avoided doing so: The big fear of the biodiesel industry is that homebrewers are going to destroy the market. I have seen home-brewed biodiesel cause problems in multiple locations and it has taken significant efforts to undo the damage. One region of the country in particular had large quantities of homegrown off-spec fuel that was being sold and distributed. The use of biodiesel was substantially delayed in this area until trust for the fuel was re-established. The biodiesel industry has gone to major efforts and expenditure to make progress with the engine manufacturers and to establish the ASTM standard. Frankly, I don't know what percentage of homegrown fuel is in spec but I do read about a lot of goo being produced. Everytime off spec fuel causes a problem, it causes a problem for everyone. I also am aware of at least one prosecution for failure to pay road taxes on homegrown fuel that was sold. I think it is in everyone's interest to recognize that there are differences between homegrown and commercial grade biodiesel. If homegrowers can hit spec and do quality control and test to spec, then they should consider whether they want to comply with the various legal requirements and go commercial. Otherwise they should keep it at home. From: grahamnoyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:58:28 - Subject: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] CALL TO ACTION- USDA CUTTING SUPPORT FORBIODIESEL PRODUCTION Obviously he can't substantiate it. A lot of things about this statement were challenged, he didn't respond to any of the questions raised. He was under pressure, he didn't expect any opposition, if he'd had anything substantial to say he'd have said it. But he just blustered a lot instead In this last weekends class we did a little homebrew test for quality against commerce BD and a batch from the Berkley co-op and they were about the same. If anything, the commerce BD that gets sent for ASTM and EPA testing is prolly from a VERY carefully processed batch, whereas most homebrew is carefully processed with each batch out of necessity (more lovingly ;-) ). I wouldn't say all homebrewers are that concerned with their batches, but to be a DIY'r is in itself a passion, and thus usually more concerned. Thankyou! That's exactly the point, and several people have said so. Several have also compared their much-maligned homebrew with commerce BD and found the same thing, either it's the same as the commerce stuff or better. But people like Noyes refuse to acknowledge such an apparently horrendous possibility. I think we should badger the guy, demand that he substantiate his claims or withdraw them. Put up or shutup. I reckon it's BS, a baseless industry myth that does the whole movement harm. People should stop spreading this sort misinformation. If it's not misinformation, fine, then let's have some details. But leaving it hanging like this is not acceptable. Best Keith James Slayden On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Andrew Hoppin wrote: snip help? Or could they be authentically concerned that a small producer making some mistake in production will sully the image of biodiesel? Other possibilities? Regardless, if you can identify what the root of their problem is, then whether that root cause seems silly or not, and regardless snip Cheers, Andrew The Biofuel Business Development Project http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Biofuel-Business-Plan/ Dedicated to Making An Immediate Impact On the Long-Range Future of Humanity Message: 12 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:23:08 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: more info on the NBB and the soy subsidy Hello Andrew I'm would prefer to see a decentralized industry of small producers as well, but my bias is that if we're really going to make a near-term difference in our world in terms of energy security and environmental protection and public health with biodiesel, we need to support any and all companies that are willing to produce and distribute biodiesel, small and large. Cheers, Andrew Um, at the cost of having homebrewers dispensed with by means of a load of BS about us being nothing but a peril who'll bring it all to naught unless we're controlled? Or at least kept firmly in our place (our own backyards)? Though we can be useful... Check back and you'll see that that's basically what Mr Noyes of World Energy was saying. He was asked how many times? Three? Four? - to substantiate his claims that substandard-spec homebrew had caused widespread problems and industry had had to clean up the mess after us. He evaded the
