Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 Euros? Just speaking for myself, from my own experience of it, a long-ongoing daily matter, never mind the me-me-me's who'd like to leave your wallet thinner, what concerns most people in this situation is **how can they give something back**. Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when the plans arrive, not before. If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. All best Keith Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Keith, the problem with this small hand driven oil press seems to be the manufacturing of the press screw. Why not use a ready made type of screw used in some trailer tounge jacks, this thread (not the screw!) has a square section and gives less pressure on the side walls of the extruder chamber. A higher RPM for the screw might be needed to keep up the production but that is a matter for the gear box. And do not use V-belts, they are very lossy! A cogbelt or straight gears are much better than the V-belt. Do not use a ball bearing as a pressure (axial) bearing on the driving shaft side of the screw, it should preferably be a glide bearing. Yes, veg oil lubricated... :) Suppose some combinations of standard pipe dia and screw dia will fit together if searching. And someone also ought to have standard steel washers of suitable thickness, hole and dia - one for welding to the end of the extruder chamber and one washer welded on the screw as part of the axial bearing and with the brass glide washer in between. Bigger holes in the center of the washers are better, permits a heftier driving shaft. My 2EuroC public domain suggestions. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
soil to call its own. As it turns out that doesn't matter too much to the Dutch, because it's a rich country. I'm not picking on them, we're all in the same boat, and what the hell I'm about a quarter Dutch myself anyway, I've lived there, I liked it, I'd go back. However, as with all the rich countries, there is an area of land totalling five times the size of Holland scattered about the world among prime growing areas in various 3rd World countries which is devoted exclusively to raising feed for Dutch cattle, at preferential prices for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 Euros? Just speaking for myself, from my own experience of it, a long-ongoing daily matter, never mind the me-me-me's who'd like to leave your wallet thinner, what concerns most people in this situation is **how can they give something back**. Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when the plans arrive, not before. If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. All best Keith Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
, at preferential prices for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 Euros? Just speaking for myself, from my own experience of it, a long-ongoing daily matter, never mind the me-me-me's who'd like to leave your wallet thinner, what concerns most people in this situation is **how can they give something back**. Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when the plans arrive, not before. If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. All best Keith Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press :Capacity building and Product Selling
Thank you Rexis ,and our list members Thank you bringing here the big effort made by JTF group and KEITH not only on small press , which I am very happy to inform that this small press , has made our list much debate , sorry I have no time to follow .But the small press we made based on the JTF and Keith work , is making the poor not become poor , but give the hope for better futures, simple one doing all the same of the BIG one too .Thus the people capacity making to build and operate technology is collective one , open source that need to be the open one too, all the credits go to Keith , as the design and our royalty too to him.We ,PhDs, with government spent money , university academic has spent a lot of time to make the the automatic screw press ,many such paper made press ,several thesis , patents, most have with no use,all sleeping in library which I am sure google is going get and sell it , naturally for rich , but the fact is Keith appropriate small press work very well like patented and inovative modern one. We expect with our project growing to pay donations for the same .Without this give and take ecological correct symbiosis , no good several hours dedicated work correctly poited out by Rexis , cannot survive the JTF and our list .The big crockdile such as yahoo, google , msn can swallow the small fish JTF , paying nothing leading ecological disaster.Thus Keith work on not only the BioD has showing an example how we need to join hand nad help the needful , to the poor and have not and not to explore them , not to think of only the profit.Well done really his dedicated very wonderful work on biofuel , not the best university , with huge money , even UNESCO is not able to make If one calculate the time he spend to read our list ,reply almost all , need , this can surely worthful more than Billgate fortune wit real value , especially the future generaions There is a lot of gap between inovative people and process based capacity building and simple product based marketing and selling. What our list members need to do is to make the network like bees , to use not the honey made by JTF group and Keith, rather make serious effort follow the road well built ,share the results , give and take the honey . This is how open source need to be really open ,really free fo the one who need it.Any good deed , well done work can have the good results.Our list members need to think of the future of our list , as the well done wok need not to be limited to one country , one company ,as Keith has correctly in ear liar e mail here , we need not to care here much about Bill Gate ,BIG BLUES, as this is waste of time, keep them out of topics.Inovation to make biofuel Our group in Brazil combined with ManicK , our list member too,Singapore , as brought here together by this list , again thanks to Keith , is doing joint project to make simple pyrolsis reactor of Biowastes integrated with Brazilian small scale distillation to make not only ethanol, but also methanol and Bio oil. We do think to release this design well made , that may take three months as the way JTF and Keith, jointly with our list members to build up people capcity to make power using biofuel made by them, thus they can get light which can get away the darkness and great green future based on biofuel.Any practical experience from others and Keith is well come about this new thread as I believe combiend etanol and metanol process can make BioD as the practical flexivel process for many rural areas. Manick has practical experience on metanol recovery from biomass, we do work on energy integration based on biomass. We, list members need much contacts , much informations sharings, Inovative design such as one in JTF ,showing good examples for newer generations come here learn together with us to like biofuel , as they do not care only about BILLGATE , let us too not care too.I feel what we need is good topics , threads, not the repeated debate , new green catalyst,Todd, Balaji , Manick can bring here dynamic green thoughts.sdPannirselvamRexis Tree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale.Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like "all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar"? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done. Regards,Rexis ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
the source of a design is not a fully engineered printout, it is the basic idea and principles behind the design. if you were to , i dont know, rough up a diagram, and give a range of possibilities rather than a specific set of figures, then you have sourced an idea, but have not put any of your personal tricks or gadgets in the window so to speak. it gives people the opportunity to modify a design to their needs or situations. the diagram of the small press i cooked up was from firsthand experience and educated guesses, the ideal figures from the engineering publication i referenced were from a very perfect world situation under controlled circumstances, which will most likely be modified by the end user to fit their needs. its hard for a thief to steal your stuff when you dont put up anything that you consider special or sensitive to your particular scenario - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Naw Keith. The purpose of the putting the design up as open source is really to point out how all the co-/waste-products of biodiesel manufacture should be handled for the environment's benefit, rather than just tossing whatever in with a heap of brush or yard clippings as so many do. It's also to point to how simple even industrial scale manufacture is, allowing the mom and pops to no longer be befuddled by the claims of mega-corps that it's beyond their reach. The Northern Tool comparison was just to point out that it wouldn't take much to make Edwin's extruder/expeller as common and inexpensive as a $39.00 water pump,, which would come to a tune of approximately 33 Euros. So people steal things, so what? Thieves are a certainty. But you don't necessarily invite the thief in for dinner. Do you think I should drop another $5,000, have the 833 gallon plan drawn up and signed off by a Process Engineer (PE) and then publish it open source on the web? When and at what level it permissible for free and on the house to stop? That decision is one made at the pleasure of the point source, not the recipient(s). Hopefully the motivations of the point source are honorable and he or she is discerning towards the prospective end user's circumstances and chooses to curb monetary gain somewhat or perhaps totally in lieu of a greater good rather than gold-plated faucets for a sunken, marble, Roman tub. I'm kind of thinking that anyone who's already got a hand-crank extruder down to 100 Euros without manufacturing at any economy of scale as of yet isn't exactly trying to profiteer off the impoverished. But if I understand you right you'd close down the whole operation because you're not getting the $20 from eBay. It's not the occasional, E-bay, quick-buck, sheisters that would bother me. It's those who would take a good idea and profit on it in the larger extreme to the point of being nothing but a mirror image of what you might think (in a worst case scenario) Edwin aspiring to be. If someone's going to produce the unit, my vote goes to the individual who initiated the effort, not the thief in the night. Can't make much sense of the rest, unless you think poverty and hunger exist in isolation without a context. Without? Now how would that be possible? There's this though: 1) It's rather doubtful that those who can't afford a 100 Eu asking price could afford to construct a prototype on their own even if they had the drawings. Todd Swearingen doesn't know how distributed manufacturing works? So if 100 Euros is half of one year's income, placing it out of their reach, how much of their income do you think it's going to cost them to have ones and twos milled by their cousin, if they happen to be lucky enough as to be within 100 kilometers of a lathe? Maybe in lots of 100 by locals who have the mechanisms to manufacture. That type of production scale would help when matched with regional pay scales, rather than introducing EU labor costs into a Micronesia market. But even then, shouldn't the point source have some association/control of his or her own brainchild, even if it's nothing more than a permissal nod of the head to an appropriate manufacturer? There'd been some talk of patenting it instead but Michael didn't agree and put it in the public domain, and I agree with Michael. They get him for a song, but that's not why he does it. Coming to a point of choosing between open source and patent/licensing is a matter of cumulative understanding - eventual comprehension of the balance between one's personal needs and wants (both good and bad) and the needs and wants (both good and bad) of others. Michael has apparently found his balance between self and the needs of and benefit to others. You've done the same where you invest your energies. Me? Hell. I'm just a greedy, anti-social, liberal
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
What we would like and what is reality can be very different to each and every one of us. For me reality is the "W" factor built into many of my projects, to this end their needs be a base line against loss and gain, this line is zero in many instances. I am very interested in the press as a saleable item from me to others as; One there is the option to buy, the option to lease or the option to payoff over several years interest free. (Note, here it is about a years wages). Two I retain the equipment and have an ongoing interest in the development of each sub group or family that wants to make their own fuel. Three let the presses be sold with great profit to large aid groups and the likes who push for their own needs rather than the needs of the people, that is most aid agencies to me are selfperpetuating non-taxpaying international conglomerates that rule tiny parts of the globe but as a combined group perform some horrific degradation of human rights. There are many that are parasitic to the plights and prey on the poor/disadvantaged/disaster victims and the likes. In some cases they have the new cars in stock ready to roll, the new equipment stored around the globe ready to roll. What the heck is wrong with using local people, local companies, local systems. TV and general media is why. Why specify new cars in projects? Maybe they have a used by date? There are benefits both ways, one of the major ones is as in two I get to keep a check on the quality which enables excess to the family or units needs to be sold in drums on the side of the road/river. It also enables me to guide the type of fuel crop and be a continuing part of the processes at no additionalcost to the family or unit. It is feasible "W" factor permitting. To note I have a hand press here that was donated to me, it works quite well but needs modifying, I will not modify it on my own as I believe that the original designer must partake of the "upgrade" and agree to it. this means he still retains the design and is not a patent or registered design but still his property right. To adopt laws that do not recognize people and property rights as such means we are going the same way as the US. It is imperative that we live by laws, one major law to me is "don't step on any one or abuse a privilege given freely by an individual". Another, due to the fact I am not in my country of birth, is "Do not copy what the locals are doing in business as this will conflict with locals and the resurrection of insiders and outsiders". This enable me to carry on a business and when alocal or locals copy it I can then change to another line/option thus introducing a wider spectrum of businesses. Doug - Original Message - From: Jason Katie To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press i understand the need for a return, but for something that was designed specifically to help the people who need it most, and then to say it will cost you a months wages for one just doesnt make sense. if someone is going to do that, it would make more sense to me to produce and sell something to groups WAY out of the way/league/market of who you are trying to help, then produce something more appropriate and viable at no cost to them. shuffle the cost to the people who can more easily afford it. again, this is my opinion.- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:06 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the "open source" doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of "Hey brother. What's min
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
3rd World countries which is devoted exclusively to raising feed for Dutch cattle, at preferential prices for the Dutch, who then use their own soil to push up tulips and stuff, that being more profitable. Pity about all those hungry people who'd be growing food for themselves and their communities on that prime 3rd World land if it weren't for the tulips and so on. Why not set the fair return you say Edwin deserves on his investment against that backdrop and see how fair it really is? *They* owe *him* 100 Euros? Just speaking for myself, from my own experience of it, a long-ongoing daily matter, never mind the me-me-me's who'd like to leave your wallet thinner, what concerns most people in this situation is **how can they give something back**. Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when the plans arrive, not before. If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. All best Keith Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Thankyou Rexis! I can't help agreeing with you. LOL! But there are lots and lots of websites that do that, it's one of the most noticeable things about the Internet. Regards Keith Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale. Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done. Regards, Rexis ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
All things aside if he were to tier the costs from the poor to the AB and UN etc so that the poor were subsidized this alone would not be so bad. I suggested that in the first place Doug, but Edwin doesn't seem to see it that way, he didn't take any notice. Best Keith To this end am interested to find more details. Their are not that many easy to use hand presses that will take the husks/shells and thus a two stage method is needed. The hulling and the oil press. Be good to know if a press existed that was operated by hand and could handle the husks to reduce the processing stages for isolated subsistence farmers being forced to accept modern technology by multinationals in the form of irrigation, if it passes you lane you pay etc. Doug - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Keith Addison To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future. I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am still working in that field. In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments (including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
they give something back**. Is that what Edwin is trying to do? You'd bet on it? No Todd, I don't agree with you this time. I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Edwin might get my attention and maybe even a dram of enthusiasm when the plans arrive, not before. If in the course of this discussion I seem to have painted him as a cynical manipulator of the less fortunate that's not my intention and it's not what I believe. I think he's just being thoughtless and seeing what he wants to see. I'd happily share a coffee and lemon meringue pie with Edwin, much more so than with people who flog Diesel Secrets or FuelMeisters. All best Keith Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
On 5/10/06, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 100 Euros isn't exactly the wealth of Fort Knox ($122 US), although it remains a relative matter. I know that in Mauritania, the per capita annual income is somewhere around US$280So about half a year's income. Sort of like a fancy new car for someone here. How many of us could afford that if we had to pay it all in one lump sum? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future. I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future. I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am still working in that field. In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments (including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to take all these hours into account and keep the price of the Piteba press low. I produce the press myself in my own new work shop, because local manufacturers were too expensive for quantities below 5000. I installed all necessary machinery especially to make production possible in my own spare time, reducing production costs. Of course the consumer price is considerably higher than the retail prices, so it gives retailers the chance to sell the press locally with a reasonable profit. Unfortunately sending 1 press by mail makes it about 40 to 60% more expensive, but still it is affordable and available. I would really appreciate it if you could help me to put your energy in developing useful applications of the oil produced by the Piteba press. I see that you all have practical ideas that could be very useful. I am thinking of a small diesel engine running on vegetable oil to be connected to the local water pump, a small burner for
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale.Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done. Regards,Rexis ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future. I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am still working in that field. In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments (including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to take all these hours into account and keep the price of the Piteba press low. I produce the press myself in my own new work shop, because local manufacturers were too expensive
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this: we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press. Here's his email, below. Best Keith Dear Keith, I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press. I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
All things aside if he were to tier the costs from the poor to the AB and UN etc so that the poor were "subsidized" this alone would not be so bad. To this end am interested to find more details. Their are not that many easy to use hand presses that will take the husks/shells and thus a two stage method is needed. The hulling and the oil press. Be good to know if a press existed that was operated by hand and could handle the husks to reduce the processing stages for isolated subsistence farmers being forced to accept modern technology by multinationals in the form of irrigation, if it passes you lane you pay etc. Doug - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi allThe designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives.I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion.I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press.But I haven't heard from him again.Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me.He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways.In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution.The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation is not exactly a new one. For instance, in a different thread at the same time Pannirselvam mentioned this:"we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coconut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil "I don't think very much of Edwin's case for giving the poorest a future. I'm not persuaded to help him sell his oil press.Here's his email, below.BestKeithDear Keith,I read your discussion about the Piteba oil press in the forum. I am glad you are so involved and enthusiastic about the idea of a small press.I understand that you have many questions on the press. First let me explain what Piteba is and why I developed the Piteba oil press. I hope you will see opportunities to support me in trying to sell the press in as many countries as possible and in that way give the poorest a future.I have a small company in the mushroom business which I grounded in 1982. It is a very interesting and challenging business and I am still working in that field.In my spare time I started to develop the oil press 5 years ago. No big institute, no public money, no support. My intention was to develop a small press for the poorest in order to give them the possibility to produce oil for the local market: as edible oil, medicine, cream, bio fuel or whatever use they could sell the oil for. At present they can only sell the seeds, if they have any, often for very low prices. With the press they can produce oil from seeds they produce themselves (farmers), find in the forest or buy on the local market (landless and people in the cities). The value added is high, making it possible to earn about 2 times as much as a local wage. There was no such press on the market. All presses are too expensive, beginning with 1000 euro or more. I used the cheapest materials, made all prototypes myself, did all experiments (including extraction efficiencies), imported various grains(not all are available in The Netherlands), made the web-site, developed the packaging, promotion of the press etc. etc. I decided not to take all these
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
i understand the need for a return, but for something that was designed specifically to help the people who need it most, and then to say it will cost you a months wages for one just doesnt make sense. if someone is going to do that, it would make more sense to me to produce and sell something to groups WAY out of the way/league/market of who you are trying to help, then produce something more appropriate and viable at no cost to them. shuffle the cost to the people who can more easily afford it. again, this is my opinion. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Sellout? Someone who wants to take a worthwhile mechanism and make a fair return on his efforts is more probable. Not everyone is into or can afford to live their life by the open source doctrine. Usually doing so just means that the masses drain the majority of your energies, you have an even thinner wallet, less time for yourself then ever before and your creditors pounding even louder at the door. A person deserves a fair return on their energy and it's not unreasonable to seek it. We published a biodiesel plant design in rough form through JTF and two-thirds of the inquiries we get are literally demands for more free information, inclusive of engineered drawings - obviously at our expense. They just don't get it. The design was placed so that people could see what was involved cradle to grave if they were truly interested, not as an invite to bleed more of our time to enhance their money seeking endeavors because they're too damned lazy and selfish to do the follow-up work themselves. Where we come from there are Rainbows and then there are Drainbows. The former is of a cooperative/sharing/community mindset. The latter operates under the principle of Hey brother. What's mine is yours and yours is mine. But since I don't have anything can I have whatever you've got? Gets old real quick And I didn't exactly see anything at his sight or in his letter that leads a person to believe that he's either a profiteer or someone who isn't willing to help others, even if the latter seems to be through the corridors of normal commerce. Todd Swearingen Jason Katie wrote: Sellout. complete and total sellout. this guy doesnt understand our goal does he? im not sure if he is just trying too hard or if he honestly doesnt realize the best way to spread knowledge is open source. investment or no, he has the design, he needs to source the original, then if he wants his money back, he needs to step up RD and make more COMMERCIALLY viable variants that would be overkill or useless for any farmboy like myself. (Disclaimer: This is completely and totally MY opinion, if you don't like it , keep in mind it is mine alone and should not interfere with yours in any way.) --- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi all The designer and manufacturer of the Piteba oil press, Edwin Blaak in the Netherlands, wrote to me offlist a week ago, in response to the discussion at the list. I guess somebody pointed him at the messages in archives. I wrote back and said I didn't much agree with him, but I didn't want to discuss it offlist, so I invited him to join the list and we could discuss it all there, where we'd have a much better discussion. I was hoping we might persuade him to open-source the plans for his oil press. But I haven't heard from him again. Since he's replying to a list discussion here, I don't see why I shouldn't forward his response to the list and we can discuss it anyway if we want to. If Edwin reads it at the list archives he can change his mind and join if he has anything to add, or contact me. He doesn't tell us much we don't know, and I think he hasn't addressed the issue of why he hasn't put the plans online. Getting back his investment is one thing, but he doesn't say how he thinks the poor communities he talks of benefiting are to lay their hands on a Piteba oil press if it's to cost 100 Euros. Designs of Appropriate Technology solutions to help empower poor communities should be free online. He could still sell the presses too if he wanted to, eg Joseph Jenkins provides the full text of his Humanure Handbook free online at the same website he sells the hard-copy version. Or have a staggered price, depending who's buying. Some people concentrate on selling to big development agencies who can afford the price and can put the gear to use in poor communities. There are lots of ways. In fact poor rural communities have traditional ways of extracting oil from seeds, they didn't have to wait for the industrial revolution. The idea of an oilseed press as part of a development platform including a diesel motor and power generation
[Biofuel] small oil press
eew. i knew it would be more complicated than it needed to be. i found a publication about how to design and build a screw press like the PITEBA, but it is not very user friendly as far as the explanations go(at least not for me). http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~dbartlett/EWB-MALI/Document%20Page/sdarticle.pdf ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] small oil press
Very Nice!Complicated? Yes, the explanation is complicated but, not unusual for a research paper. It not only provides theoretical proof but, also provides the theoretical tools for redesign by the reader.The bottom line is how to produce a set of prints from this research and start using it! It looks like we may need to apply some appropriate technology principles which would allow any of us to build it (or have it built) in a cost effective way.WWSD - What would Schumacher do?MikeJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: eew. i knew it would be more complicated than it needed to be. i found a publication about how to design and build a screw press like the PITEBA, but it is not very user friendly as far as the explanations go(at least not for me). http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~dbartlett/EWB-MALI/Document%20Page/sdarticle.pdf ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Hi all Jason sent me a nicely drawn graphic of how the PITEBA oilpress could work. It's here: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/oilpress.jpg Any comments? Best Keith Kieth, If you look carefully at one of the close-up pics ( http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm about halfway down) there is a hole in the side of the reducer nipple (black iron, 1.5, about 0.90$US) that the cake is squeezed out of around the adjustment screw. the only reason i could think the price would be so high is the welding costs, a trained welder would demand a lot of money for their work, even as simple as this. and as for continuity, it wouldnt be perfect, but the oil could be drawn off by funnel, and the cake could be shunted to a bigger basket as it falls. ill see if i can get something put together for you in the near future, i doubt ill have any numbers, but i can have a diagram pretty quick. Jason - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi Jason Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. Thankyou! More or less what I thought. If it's an AT project then why's it so expensive and why don't they make free plans available? I saw something on their website about tropical use, sure, that's our focus too, but not that way. Maybe they see the NGOs and aid agencies as their market. Well, maybe, but I think what has to happen to this stuff is that you set it free so it can spread like a weed, if it works and it's wanted, or die if not. Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. Butchers use bigger ones, they must junk them sometimes. I guess they take a different route into the waste stream. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? Maybe if you made the holes smaller... Wonder what that blue-green stuff is in the other bottle. All best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:12 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Small oil press http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Hmm, That looks very much like my fat grinder, I wonder if a hamburger grinder with very small holes 1/6 would work? I will try it, would flax seed have enough oil for a test? Jim Keith Addison wrote: Hi all Jason sent me a nicely drawn graphic of how the PITEBA oilpress could work. It's here: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/oilpress.jpg Any comments? Best Keith Kieth, If you look carefully at one of the close-up pics ( http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm about halfway down) there is a hole in the side of the reducer nipple (black iron, 1.5, about 0.90$US) that the cake is squeezed out of around the adjustment screw. the only reason i could think the price would be so high is the welding costs, a trained welder would demand a lot of money for their work, even as simple as this. and as for continuity, it wouldnt be perfect, but the oil could be drawn off by funnel, and the cake could be shunted to a bigger basket as it falls. ill see if i can get something put together for you in the near future, i doubt ill have any numbers, but i can have a diagram pretty quick. Jason - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi Jason Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. Thankyou! More or less what I thought. If it's an AT project then why's it so expensive and why don't they make free plans available? I saw something on their website about tropical use, sure, that's our focus too, but not that way. Maybe they see the NGOs and aid agencies as their market. Well, maybe, but I think what has to happen to this stuff is that you set it free so it can spread like a weed, if it works and it's wanted, or die if not. Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. Butchers use bigger ones, they must junk them sometimes. I guess they take a different route into the waste stream. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? Maybe if you made the holes smaller... Wonder what that blue-green stuff is in the other bottle. All best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:12 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Small oil press http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Interesting oil press that keeps me thinking. Seed -oil press- oil + cake oil -biodiesel processor- fuel(biodiesel) cake -digester- fuel(methane) + digested cake digested cake -vermicompost- fertilizer + protein(worm) feed worm/cake/digested cake to chicken how many products we have above? Nice! It's great working with these patterns eh? We're working to integrate everything this way here at our small farm. It's the only way to go with fuel and food production, IMHO. One of the goals of the list and many of its members is the development of small-scale integrated biofuels production units, and you've just outlined a part of it. We include food production, sustainable food and fuel farms, also integrated. But in your scheme you hit a glitch when you try to feed the digested cake to vermicomposting worms and to chickens, because it's not cake anymore, it's sludge, anaerobic sludge, in other words it's putrified. If you put worms in it they'll die very quickly, the chickens won't eat it and indeed shouldn't, and although lots of people say digester sludge is great organic fertiliser because it contains large amount of N, P and K, which is what you pay for when you buy fertiliser, it's not true: sludge might contain high amounts of the major plant nutrients (N-P-K), but in that form it kills the soil micro- and macro-life that makes the nutrients available to the plants, and anaerobic digestion is not a reliable cut-off of disease pathogens. Sludge should be hot-composted, aerobically, before soil application. It won't compost by itself (no air), you need to mix it with other stuff. After composting it you can feed it to worms too. You might do better feeding the cake straight to the chickens (or whatever), feeding the chicken manure to the worms, and using the biodiesel by-product in the methane digester (along with other stuff, eg more chicken manure); we know that works with straight glycerine, but the biodiesel by-product isn't just glycerine and needs testing with a digester. It should work but the ratios and quantities will need working out in practice. Then you have to tie all of this back in to growing the next crop of oilseed to close the loop. Keep going! Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
From Keith: http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Piteba manual oil expeller Thanks, Keith, for this interesting forward. A study of the website reveals the main markets for Dutch-made Piteba manual oil expellers includes tropical and sub-tropical countries such as Zambia, Mozambique, etc. At the website link - [Guide to make edible oils] - the situation creating the market is summarized. The minimum annual requirement of oils and fats is between 8.5 10.0 kg per adult according to the World Health Organization. Edible oils and fats are essential for good health. However, in many countries there is a great scarcity of edible oils and as a result the price of one kilogram oil is frequently more than the daily wage of a labourer! Many national and international organizations as well as private companies have developed manually operated oil presses for small scale entrepreneurs or small groups of farmers. The aspect of manual operation is important as the poorer segment of the rural population in many countries is frequently too poor to consider mechanization of processing by using an electromotor or petrol engine. -- Jack ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Hi Jason Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. Thankyou! More or less what I thought. If it's an AT project then why's it so expensive and why don't they make free plans available? I saw something on their website about tropical use, sure, that's our focus too, but not that way. Maybe they see the NGOs and aid agencies as their market. Well, maybe, but I think what has to happen to this stuff is that you set it free so it can spread like a weed, if it works and it's wanted, or die if not. Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. Butchers use bigger ones, they must junk them sometimes. I guess they take a different route into the waste stream. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? Maybe if you made the holes smaller... Wonder what that blue-green stuff is in the other bottle. All best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:12 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Small oil press http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Hi Keith The blue-green stuff in the other bottle is a lamp oil heater to heat the press to increase oil extraction. Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: 26 March 2006 15:19 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi Jason Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. Thankyou! More or less what I thought. If it's an AT project then why's it so expensive and why don't they make free plans available? I saw something on their website about tropical use, sure, that's our focus too, but not that way. Maybe they see the NGOs and aid agencies as their market. Well, maybe, but I think what has to happen to this stuff is that you set it free so it can spread like a weed, if it works and it's wanted, or die if not. Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. Butchers use bigger ones, they must junk them sometimes. I guess they take a different route into the waste stream. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? Maybe if you made the holes smaller... Wonder what that blue-green stuff is in the other bottle. All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
On Mar 25, 2006, at 2:45 PM, Jason Katie wrote: Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. In my ApproTec ram press, the piston runs in a cage made of parallel steel bars with precisely shimmed gaps between them to allow oil to escape but not seed cake, and THIS is the only tricky piece. From what I can see of this Piteba unit, it also has a cage in which the screw turns -- if you didn't have a cage or some other method of surrounding the cake with multiple openings, the oil would have to percolate through the cake to get out, which would be very slow. If it's really easy to build a cheap screw press, I wish someone would post detailed plans -- this having to go to Germany (Komet), Tanzania (ApproTec), Netherlands (Piteba), etc. is for the birds :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
On Mar 26, 2006, at 6:18 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. I think the screws for oil presses are different and unique -- the pressure is supposed to increase to very high levels by the end of the path, much higher than meat needs. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? I believe their design is continuous, much like my ram press. The screw cap at the end allows you to adjust the pressure at the exit so that just the right amount of cake leaks out to allow continuous operation, but it comes out almost dry so you're not leaving any oil in it. Amen to online plans! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Kieth, If you look carefully at one of the close-up pics ( http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm about halfway down) there is a hole in the side of the reducer nipple (black iron, 1.5, about 0.90$US) that the cake is squeezed out of around the adjustment screw. the only reason i could think the price would be so high is the welding costs, a trained welder would demand a lot of money for their work, even as simple as this. and as for continuity, it wouldnt be perfect, but the oil could be drawn off by funnel, and the cake could be shunted to a bigger basket as it falls. ill see if i can get something put together for you in the near future, i doubt ill have any numbers, but i can have a diagram pretty quick. Jason - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press Hi Jason Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. Thankyou! More or less what I thought. If it's an AT project then why's it so expensive and why don't they make free plans available? I saw something on their website about tropical use, sure, that's our focus too, but not that way. Maybe they see the NGOs and aid agencies as their market. Well, maybe, but I think what has to happen to this stuff is that you set it free so it can spread like a weed, if it works and it's wanted, or die if not. Could you put some plans together Jason? Made of common bits. As you say the helix press is the problem. I've never seen a discarded meat grinder in a junk pile or recycling centre, here nor elsewhere. Butchers use bigger ones, they must junk them sometimes. I guess they take a different route into the waste stream. Also, how could it be continuous? You'd have to stop every now and then to take the cake out, it doesn't look like it comes out the end all by itself like a meat grinder. Would a grinder still crush out the oil if it came out the end like that? Maybe if you made the holes smaller... Wonder what that blue-green stuff is in the other bottle. All best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:12 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Small oil press http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.1/292 - Release Date: 3/24/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Interesting oil press that keeps me thinking.Seed -oil press- oil + cakeoil -biodiesel processor- fuel(biodiesel)cake -digester- fuel(methane) + digested cakedigested cake -vermicompost- fertilizer + protein(worm) feed worm/cake/digested cake to chickenhow many products we have above? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Begin | oil + cake (bio + glycerine) + protien | \ digester \ | \ methane + fetilizer chickenfeed / | ^| / | / | heat for bio crops /| (scratch and oilseed) poo + chicken meat+ eggs || || || || oil + cake| dinnerbreakfast \ | \ / \ | scraps \ | / \ | / \ digester | Begin Again I count sixteen byproducts, and this one is a simple setup. depending on what kind of animals, and crops you are looking into it could go further, there is still ethanol to consider as well ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Small oil press
http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press
Its a piece of gas main with a helix press in it (like whats in a meat grinder). the hardest part to find would be the press itself, but everything else is just off the shelf nickel and dime stuff. i really cant see spending 100euros on it when i can build it for about 25. and stick a solar heated Stirling on it, and you could use a bigger hopper and catch-pan and go have a sandwich or something. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 3:12 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Small oil press http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm Sturdy oil expeller for the small scale professional - Manually operated - Continuous pressing of oil seeds - Up to 2 litres oil per hour - Processing up to 5 kg seed per hour - excellent for coconut cream production ... it says. Price about 100 EURO. Any comments? Anyone have any experience of it? Is it made of plumbing parts? It looks like an Appropriate Technology project, maybe out of Wageningen University or something similar. Hm, 2 litres of oil for an hour of cranking that handle - are you putting in more muscle-power energy than you're getting out? Sounds like a case for Pimentel to me. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.1/292 - Release Date: 3/24/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
