John,
Where I was thinking as I was clicking on the send button that post had probably been better off sent to the bit bucket, I'm sure you where disappointed. I don't have a clue if this is going to be any better, but here goes. My original remarks where based on my observations of those families I know who own SUVs and what I see as drivers/passengers elsewhere. In conversation with those who own either a mini van or a SUV the anecdotal evidence indicates that less than full sized SUVs now can get better fuel economy than some minivans. I don't find the station wagon statistics that surprising. Unless family size dictated a need for a third row of seating, the station wagon offered little advantage over the passenger sedan. Instead of saying the SUV is a replacement for the station wagon, it would be more accurate to say the SUV is replacement for the full sized sedan of old. Evidently you also where unable to find facts in regards to who are buying what vehicles, anyway status has to be such a subjective determination, one that I'm not sure can be gleaned from statistics. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes > Hi Doug. > > Frankly, I was very disappointed with your reply. > > In our culture, yes, we have a right to an opinion, but others also have > the right to tell so how and why our reasoning is flawed. And in the > words of advisorjim (http://advisorjim.dailykos.com/) "We're all > entitled to our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts!" > > You implied that the "need" for SUVs driven by big families with big > kids. And I rebutted it with two sources and one anecdote that suggest > this just isn't true. > > Your wishy washy "statistics are too malleable" statement is an > intellectual cop out. If you're a going to make readily falsifiable > statements on this list, you can't just wave the "let's agree to > disagree" flag when those statements are challenged. That's just weak. > > jh > > > > > > Doug Younker wrote: > > What can I say, John? Both statistics and observations are both too > > malleable. This could become perceived myth versus perceived myth, judging > > others by what they drive and where we can't fully know what drove their > > decision, I really don't want to go there. Thank you for taking the time to > > share your thoughts. > > Doug > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 1:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes > > > > > > > >>Doug. > >> > >>For the vast majority, SUVs are about status, not capability. Those 3 or > >>4 or 5 kids will also fit in a minivan that already gets mileage in the > >>20s. How do I know? My wife is one of 5 and she's the runt of the > >>family; both her sisters are over 5"10 and her two brothers are over 6"3. > >> > >>Also, what proportion of American families are actually that large? > >>According to US census data, in 48 of 50 states, families average less > >>than two children. > >> > >>http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabST-F1-2000.pdf > >> > >>You can't tell me with a straight face that large families have driven > >>the SUV boom in the 90s. > >> > >>Finally, don't believe the myth that American consumers were "forced" to > >>buy SUVs by the disappearance of the station wagon. It's just not true. > >> > >>"Midsized SUVs rose from 4% of all light duty vehicle sales in MY1998 to > >>12.3% in 2000. Midsized station wagons droped from 1.9 to 1.4 percent in > >>the same period. Large SUVs rose from 0.5% to 5.5% while large station > >>wagons dropped from 0.5% to 0. SUVs are far more popular today than > >>station wagons were before CAFE." > >> > >>from pg 19 http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/docs/162944_web.pdf > >> > >>jh > >> > >>Doug Younker wrote: > >> > >>>Well.. I would have to think a 22 MPG SUV is a step above the 13-16 MPG > > > > SUV > > > >>>of 25 to 30 years ago. As long as families continue to have 3, 4 or > > > > more > > > >>>kids, with some of them being 6 foot giants the demand, for larger > > > > vehicles > > > >>>isn't going to subside soon. Shoot it's going to be difficult enough to > >>>reduce the miles those vehicles are being driven. > >>>Doug, N0LKK > >>> > >>>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>>Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:21 PM > >>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Check out Diesel Won't Solve Our Gasoline Woes > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>I read that. Diesel will only help if combined w/ high mileage cars, > >>>>hybrid and bio. To go to diesel so Americans can get 22 mpg in their > >>>>SUVs is pretty silly. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Biofuel mailing list > >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>> > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >>> > >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>John E Hayes, M.S. > >>Instructor, Dietetics Program, DIET 203 / DIET 215 > >>Doctoral Student, Nutritional Sciences > >>University of Connecticut - 326 Koons Hall > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] / 860.486.0007 > >> > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Biofuel mailing list > >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >> > >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > > > messages): > > > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >> > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
