Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
Thanks Jim; That IS a help. As far as the actual mixing goes there must be big variances from one design of pump to another , in just what type of impeller is used and how close the tolerances are. For my part I find my pump mixes things up very nicely in fact I can see the change in color through the plastic lines from the inlet to the outlet side of the pump. The darker colour on the line that returns to the tank indicates the reaction is taking place. I use a combination of vacuum and the pump inlet suction to pull the methoxide into the stream and have a needle valve on the methoxide line so that I set it up to introduce a slow trickle of methoxide into the stream entering the pump. It takes me about 1/2 hour to add 4 liters of methoxide to 25 liters of oil. I run the pump for a further 1/2 hour but I can see glycerine in the lower sight tube collecting even before the end of the first 1/2 hour. So assuming my pump delivers 4 GPM or 16 lpm I am doing roughly 16 changes in the time it takes to add the methoxide and then a further 16 changes after it is all added. Someone questioned whether my little pump can do 5 GPM through 3/8 inch lines and I suspect they may be right. I should test it. But even if it was only 2 GPM I would still be getting 16 changes of volume in an hour which would still be above your 10 changes guideline. BTW I'm curious to know the experience of those out there doing pump mixing for a longer term than me. Does anyone find that the methoxide is chewing up your pump? Joe JJJN wrote: Hi Joe, The Clearwater Model 01479 is rated at 330 gallons per hour or 1249 Liters per Hour when it has to lift Water no more than 0 foot before expelling it. It will lift water as much as 10 feet but you can expect the GPH or LPH to drop exponentially when you approach that much lift.. It will also take water in at 0 feet and expel it 115 feet but again you can expect it to drop exponentially when you get close to its Maximum. That said, lets review the purpose of the pump in the process. The pump should do the mixing. This should be done as fast as possible (in an hour) as this is what gets the reaction going and the sooner we can start pulling the Glycerin off thus pushing the reaction in the right direction. So it is mixing we want to happen. When we have a 25 gallon (94 L) batch and we place the Pump near the bottom or center of the reactor we can use 300 GPH as we are not lifting more than a foot or so and expelling the same and it is a round number. So 300 / 25 = 12 (per hour) This theroreticaly is the number of times each liter passes through the pump in one hour. I personally like this number as my personal rule of thumb (10 time minimum and 2 extras to be sure) If you get cheap here you will have oil unexposed to the Potassium Methoxil and end up with unreacted oil. I'm sorry I don't have a better rule for Max Min here but this is what I like to stick with. Now if you go to the hardware store and buy a bag full of SSteel washers another of 1 PVC Couplings, 4 tees and 4 elbows you can increase the efficiency of the mix rate by building an orifice chamber like the one noted on JtF (Cambridge University) without increasing the restriction (4 runs minimum) the hole in the washer should be almost a half inch but it has to fit in the coupling. This gadget will not work as well with out something to oscillate the oil but it will improve mixing 50% or so of what goes through the pump vers just the pipe and pump impeller. One thing to remember is this just helps what goes through the pump. The trick is get the whole batch through the pump! You can also help this if you have a cone bottom reactor and you point the discharge hose so the oil in the reactor starts to circle around. This is pushing the top oil to the bottom (or through the pump). BUT USE CARE you dont want it creating a whirl pool! just get it moving around nice and slow. I hope this helps you some but again this is just what I have gleaned from the chemical engineers at work and I'm not sure they fully understand the biodiesel that I am absorbed with but the advice works for me. Good Luck Jim Joe Street wrote: Hi all; I looked in the archives for info on pump size recommendations. I found a few messages relating to the clear water pump but what I am after is does anyone have a rule of thumb on pump throughput versus reactor size? I know variables such as reactor dimensions, tall vs short location of ports etc will have an impact but is there a ball park gauge such as GPM rating should be equal to some multiple or fraction of tank volume? For example I have an 8 gallon tank and am using a pump which delivers 5 GPM at near zero head (unrestricted flow). It works very well. Does this mean that a 50 GPM pump would be a reasonable guess for a reactor of 80 gallons volume? Keith you indicated that the clear water pump is ok for a 60
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
Thanks Jim some good info, but I couldn't find the building an orifice chamber you mentioned on the JTF website. Could you provide a link? ThanksMichael LuichNow if you go to the hardware store and buy a bag full of SSteel washers another of 1 PVC Couplings, 4 tees and 4 elbows you can increase theefficiency of the mix rate by building an orifice chamber like the onenoted on JtF (Cambridge University) without increasing the restriction (4 runs minimum) the hole in the washer should be almost a half inch butit has to fit in the coupling.This gadget will not work as well without something to oscillate the oil but it will improve mixing 50% or so of what goes through the pump vers just the pipe and pump impeller.Onething to remember is this just helps what goes through the pump.Thetrick is get the whole batch through the pump! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pump size
Hi Joe,Hi Jim, My reactor is pump mixed too,but I am using two pumps of different types-one SS from the food brand and the other is clear water-cast iron case and turbine.As far I am controlling carefully the both and I didn't`t noticed any changes,the pumps are in fine condition.BTW,the pumps are capable of recirculating the volume of the R 20-22 times in an hour and the BD is prima!I tried for comparison injecting the MeOH in the inlet and to pore slowly on the top and did not noticed any diff in the BD-it is always OK.It seems that the temp and agitation are what counts. Best Rumen __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
Michael, Here are the links, http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/news/resnews/ChemEInterfaces6.pdf http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/news/2004/biodiesel.html I use a 1 dia PVC Coupling and a ss washer that just fits inside. the hole in the washer is about 1/2dia. Jim Michael Luich wrote: Thanks Jim some good info, but I couldn't find the building an orifice chamber you mentioned on the JTF website. Could you provide a link? Thanks Michael Luich Now if you go to the hardware store and buy a bag full of SSteel washers another of 1 PVC Couplings, 4 tees and 4 elbows you can increase the efficiency of the mix rate by building an orifice chamber like the one noted on JtF (Cambridge University) without increasing the restriction (4 runs minimum) the hole in the washer should be almost a half inch but it has to fit in the coupling. This gadget will not work as well with out something to oscillate the oil but it will improve mixing 50% or so of what goes through the pump vers just the pipe and pump impeller. One thing to remember is this just helps what goes through the pump. The trick is get the whole batch through the pump! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
Hi Joe How come you're so metrically challenged? You're a Canadian, not an American, no? Cross-border pollution by sheer osmosis? LOL! Hi all; I looked in the archives for info on pump size recommendations. I found a few messages relating to the clear water pump but what I am after is does anyone have a rule of thumb on pump throughput versus reactor size? I know variables such as reactor dimensions, tall vs short location of ports etc will have an impact but is there a ball park gauge such as GPM rating should be equal to some multiple or fraction of tank volume? For example I have an 8 gallon tank and am using a pump which delivers 5 GPM at near zero head (unrestricted flow). It works very well. Does this mean that a 50 GPM pump would be a reasonable guess for a reactor of 80 gallons volume? Keith you indicated that the clear water pump is ok for a 60 gallon size 60 litres, about 16 US gallons. but questionable for a 80 gallon size. I think 100 litres is about the maximum, about 26 US gallons. It works at 60, 80 and probably 100 litres, and it doesn't work at 200 litres (55 gal), or at least not as usually implemented. There are probably some work-arounds for that, but I reckon the best work-around would be a bigger pump. Just to make things more confusing, the data on harbour freight's web page says the 1 clear pump delivers 330 GPH so that's 5.5 GPM but it is a 1/2 hp pump! It's confusing. Harbor Freight says Maximum capacity: 330 GPH, Northern Tools says Moves up to 720 GPH at 2ft./10 GPM, whatever that means, same pump. I find it's faster than 10 gpm, and that's with the thing stepped down from 1 to 3/4. Turning over 72 litres (oil plus methanol), 19 US gallons, takes the pump less than 2 minutes. But that's not quite what happens, some gets more turned over than other. My little pump is something like 1/20 hp and has 3/8 connections so there must be an error somewhere here. I am thinking the clear pump is actually 330 GPM not GPH. No way! I think the variable is the head. Would it be right to say that a biodiesel processor would be rather optimal conditions for a pump? I don't know an easy way of calculating the variables to match a given reactor to a standard process and processing time. What people seem to do is to try to get in the ballpark and then use the fuel quality tests to fine-tune it. With stirrers there's the speed, the shape and configuration of the paddles, and you can use baffles. With pumps? Not so easy, you've gone and bought the thing already and rigged it to your processor, doing bracketing tests or something with different pumps isn't exactly an appealing option. So I can see why you'd want a rule-of-thumb, but I don't think there is one, sad to say, hope I'm wrong. We managed to get it right first time, big relief, especially as I'd never built anything like a biodiesel reactor before. All it needed was a bit of tinkering with the plumbing, I didn't have to change anything. What we had was limited space, the 90-litre tanks and the pump, non-negotiables. I spent a lot of time reading Prof. Michael Allen's processor page at our site and his list posts and emails, and those of Camillo Holecek, and Michael's paper and spreadsheet on The modelling of the biodiesel reaction in our Biofuels library, along with anything else I could find, lots of list archives posts from lots of people. I also spent quite a lot of time puzzling over the elevation of the outlet port. I was really pleased that that aspect of it in particular works well, I think it's a much neglected aspect of processing. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle Along with the process itself, it might have quite a lot to do with this: How do you manage to make such clean biodiesel out of waste oil? a puzzled GC technician asked Midori in Tokyo yesterday at the university lab that's doing tests for us. It said so on the test results too in a comment at the end: Very clean biodiesel!! We have some other test results of biodiesel made in one of the rather useless $70,000-and-up 100-litre processors these companies flog here in Japan, which the guy who bought it paid for at a professional lab ($6,000!). It didn't come close, although the test sample was taken *after* he'd centrifuged the finished, washed product and got a whole load of under-processed gunk out of it. I have some photographs of that, yuk. The other processor brands are the same, samples of their fuel don't pass the homebrewers' quality tests. The government issues warnings to people applying for the vegetable oil fuel exemption for the shaken (roadworthy certificate) to beware of poor-quality biodiesel, but it's the only kind you can buy. Don't buy biodiesel in Japan! Our processor cost $100. I'm not happy to tell you all this, I really wish these fancy processors could produce a fancy product but they can't. If we can do it, why can't they? The growing band of
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
Hi Joe, The Clearwater Model 01479 is rated at 330 gallons per hour or 1249 Liters per Hour when it has to lift Water no more than 0 foot before expelling it. It will lift water as much as 10 feet but you can expect the GPH or LPH to drop exponentially when you approach that much lift.. It will also take water in at 0 feet and expel it 115 feet but again you can expect it to drop exponentially when you get close to its Maximum. That said, lets review the purpose of the pump in the process. The pump should do the mixing. This should be done as fast as possible (in an hour) as this is what gets the reaction going and the sooner we can start pulling the Glycerin off thus pushing the reaction in the right direction. So it is mixing we want to happen. When we have a 25 gallon (94 L) batch and we place the Pump near the bottom or center of the reactor we can use 300 GPH as we are not lifting more than a foot or so and expelling the same and it is a round number. So 300 / 25 = 12 (per hour) This theroreticaly is the number of times each liter passes through the pump in one hour. I personally like this number as my personal rule of thumb (10 time minimum and 2 extras to be sure) If you get cheap here you will have oil unexposed to the Potassium Methoxil and end up with unreacted oil. I'm sorry I don't have a better rule for Max Min here but this is what I like to stick with. Now if you go to the hardware store and buy a bag full of SSteel washers another of 1 PVC Couplings, 4 tees and 4 elbows you can increase the efficiency of the mix rate by building an orifice chamber like the one noted on JtF (Cambridge University) without increasing the restriction (4 runs minimum) the hole in the washer should be almost a half inch but it has to fit in the coupling. This gadget will not work as well with out something to oscillate the oil but it will improve mixing 50% or so of what goes through the pump vers just the pipe and pump impeller. One thing to remember is this just helps what goes through the pump. The trick is get the whole batch through the pump! You can also help this if you have a cone bottom reactor and you point the discharge hose so the oil in the reactor starts to circle around. This is pushing the top oil to the bottom (or through the pump). BUT USE CARE you dont want it creating a whirl pool! just get it moving around nice and slow. I hope this helps you some but again this is just what I have gleaned from the chemical engineers at work and I'm not sure they fully understand the biodiesel that I am absorbed with but the advice works for me. Good Luck Jim Joe Street wrote: Hi all; I looked in the archives for info on pump size recommendations. I found a few messages relating to the clear water pump but what I am after is does anyone have a rule of thumb on pump throughput versus reactor size? I know variables such as reactor dimensions, tall vs short location of ports etc will have an impact but is there a ball park gauge such as GPM rating should be equal to some multiple or fraction of tank volume? For example I have an 8 gallon tank and am using a pump which delivers 5 GPM at near zero head (unrestricted flow). It works very well. Does this mean that a 50 GPM pump would be a reasonable guess for a reactor of 80 gallons volume? Keith you indicated that the clear water pump is ok for a 60 gallon size but questionable for a 80 gallon size. Just to make things more confusing, the data on harbour freight's web page says the 1 clear pump delivers 330 GPH so that's 5.5 GPM but it is a 1/2 hp pump! My little pump is something like 1/20 hp and has 3/8 connections so there must be an error somewhere here. I am thinking the clear pump is actually 330 GPM not GPH. Anybody? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Pump size
Hi all; I looked in the archives for info on pump size recommendations. I found a few messages relating to the clear water pump but what I am after is does anyone have a rule of thumb on pump throughput versus reactor size? I know variables such as reactor dimensions, tall vs short location of ports etc will have an impact but is there a ball park gauge such as GPM rating should be equal to some multiple or fraction of tank volume? For example I have an 8 gallon tank and am using a pump which delivers 5 GPM at near zero head (unrestricted flow). It works very well. Does this mean that a 50 GPM pump would be a reasonable guess for a reactor of 80 gallons volume? Keith you indicated that the clear water pump is ok for a 60 gallon size but questionable for a 80 gallon size. Just to make things more confusing, the data on harbour freight's web page says the 1 clear pump delivers 330 GPH so that's 5.5 GPM but it is a 1/2 hp pump! My little pump is something like 1/20 hp and has 3/8 connections so there must be an error somewhere here. I am thinking the clear pump is actually 330 GPM not GPH. Anybody? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
What is the pressure that those gpm ratings are taken at? I suspect the 1/2 horse pump is rated at a much higher head than your 1/20th HP pump. Also, are you sure you are getting 5gpm through a 3/8 fitting? It seems a little high for that small of pipe. On 12/7/05, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all; I looked in the archives for info on pump size recommendations. I found a few messages relating to the clear water pump but what I am after is does anyone have a rule of thumb on pump throughput versus reactor size? I know variables such as reactor dimensions, tall vs short location of ports etc will have an impact but is there a ball park gauge such as GPM rating should be equal to some multiple or fraction of tank volume? For example I have an 8 gallon tank and am using a pump which delivers 5 GPM at near zero head (unrestricted flow). It works very well. Does this mean that a 50 GPM pump would be a reasonable guess for a reactor of 80 gallons volume? Keith you indicated that the clear water pump is ok for a 60 gallon size but questionable for a 80 gallon size. Just to make things more confusing, the data on harbour freight's web page says the 1 clear pump delivers 330 GPH so that's 5.5 GPM but it is a 1/2 hp pump! My little pump is something like 1/20 hp and has 3/8 connections so there must be an error somewhere here. I am thinking the clear pump is actually 330 GPM not GPH. Anybody? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Pump size
I am thinking the clear pump is actually 330 GPM not GPH. Joe , I just bought a 3/4 HP submersable and the well driller says it will put out 10 GPM Jerry ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [biofuel] pump size
Pierre, Use what you tools you have and adjust your reaction time accordingly. If the manufacturer's specs are available to you, check the rated gph of the pump at 3' of head pressure. Then multiply that volume by ~60% due to reductions caused by pumping a fluid far more viscous than water, which is what the specs will probably refer to. Divide that volume by the volume in the reactor and you've got a very crude guestimate of the number of turnovers per hour in your reactor. To judge an appropriate reaction time, pull an exact amount of fluid (200 ml would suffice) out of the reaction stream every half-hour or hour after an arbitrary initial ~1 hour reaction period. Presuming that the contents of the reactor are kept homogenous from the pump flow, the volume of the glycerol cocktail that settles out of each sample will give you a fair gauge as to when your reaction completed. The suggestion would be to continue the reaction for ~1/2 hour beyond the point where your glyc cocktail volume stabilized. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 5:26 PM Subject: [biofuel] pump size Between all the exchange between some of our members, I lost sight of the ideal pump size strength for mixing a 45 gallon drum of home brew (filled to 30 gal) Right now I have a 1/3 horse 1 pump. I am about to connect to my reactor. Is this in-/overly/perfectly adequate? Pierre Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] pump size
Between all the exchange between some of our members, I lost sight of the ideal pump size strength for mixing a 45 gallon drum of home brew (filled to 30 gal) Right now I have a 1/3 horse 1 pump. I am about to connect to my reactor. Is this in-/overly/perfectly adequate? Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
