Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
As an option, why not consider buying power off your neighbour (in lieu of running a diesel genset), cabling the system permanently underground, and using an off-grid system to supplement. This way, in periods of clouds, you could charge off the grid, and use the grid connection for low power items like refrigeration. The cable is not very big to run a 300m 220v, 20 A system. Costs go up as the cable size/current draw increases. regards Doug On Tuesday 18 July 2006 1:27, Ken Provost wrote: On Jul 17, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Appal Energy wrote: .. you need to size your consumption and determine where you can shave peak and continual use to determine your final costs. There may be no inconvenience to tolerate. I actually did all that last year, but I believe I was not sufficiently daring. After some more research and considering all the great inputs from the group, I believe an offgrid PV system of around 2000 watts nominal, with some batteries and a 5kW genset, can be had for nearly the same $ as PGE wants. With some careful planning, my needs should be covered in the summer without running the genset much if at all. I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to the manger yet, and you're technically already off the grid by virtue of not having any substitute as of yet, just what have you been doing for power up to this point? 10 awg extension cord 300 feet to a 20A outlet in the neighbor's garage :-) Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the building? Garage is done, house is up to floor joists -- garage bales are lime plastered, and the wiring is done, from the (as yet unconnected) breaker box... Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid. Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have your penchant, me thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for not having a go at it right out of the chute. I think you're spot on there -- after all the financial analysis and the amps and watts, it comes down to lifestyle and spiritual issues, like so much else. Thanks again for your (and everyone's) inputs on this. I'll let you know how it plays out... -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
He can unless the power line crosses a right of way (road) then it becomes a state issue.(PUC) KirkDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an option, why not consider buying power off your neighbour (in lieu of running a diesel genset), cabling the system permanently underground, and using an off-grid system to supplement. This way, in periods of clouds, you could charge off the grid, and use the grid connection for low power items like refrigeration. The cable is not very big to run a 300m 220v, 20 A system. Costs go up as the cable size/current draw increases.regards DougOn Tuesday 18 July 2006 1:27, Ken Provost wrote: On Jul 17, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Appal Energy wrote: .. you need to size your consumption and determine where you can shave peak and continual use to determine your final costs. There may be no "inconvenience" to tolerate. I actually did all that last year, but I believe I was not sufficiently daring. After some more research and considering all the great inputs from the group, I believe an offgrid PV system of around 2000 watts nominal, with some batteries and a 5kW genset, can be had for nearly the same $ as PGE wants. With some careful planning, my needs should be covered in the summer without running the genset much if at all. I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to the manger yet, and you're technically already off the grid by virtue of not having any substitute as of yet, just what have you been doing for power up to this point? 10 awg extension cord 300 feet to a 20A outlet in the neighbor's garage :-) Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the building? Garage is done, house is up to floor joists -- garage bales are lime plastered, and the wiring is done, from the (as yet unconnected) breaker box... Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid. Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have your penchant, me thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for not having a go at it right out of the chute. I think you're spot on there -- after all the financial analysis and the amps and watts, it comes down to lifestyle and spiritual issues, like so much else. Thanks again for your (and everyone's) inputs on this. I'll let you know how it plays out... -K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Hello Manuel, I have an interest in such a system for my small farm. I think a 5kw genset with invertor should suffice but my concern is with noise and vibration. How do you handle this? I like the countryside for peace and quiet. Thanks, Tom From: manuel cilia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 03:45:56 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?Dear Kevin,I do this for a living. My company is based in Australia and we supply off-the-homes with power. In outback Australia it can cost upwards of $150,000 to connect to the grid.snip___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Actually, for most people on PV systems nowadays, I recommend going to Sears and getting the most efficient GE or Kenmore fridge. They use about 30% more power than a Sunfrost, but cost about a third as much, and you can add a few extra solar panels for this. Regular AC fridges used to be really bad, but in the last 5 years they've gotten decent... On 7/16/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be nice. Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use. I agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh! I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic.That's already on its own PV array :-)-K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
I wouldn't recommend the generator route, unless you have a really good soundproofing method I just spent the weekend at a remote cabin, and it had a little PV system for lights and such. But the machine shop there was designed back in the 70's before PV's were available, and it is all set up to run off a 4 cylinder gas generator. Such as racket all day, in a place where normally you can't even hear any traffic or anything It's not only the fossil fuels going into it, but also the noise coming out of it that makes me not like generators, and biofuels only solve part of the problem. I would recommend using biofuels for any heat producing appliance (stove, space heating, dryer, etc), which will save immensly on the cost of the PV system. Except for the workshop and motors, which I have to admit that I like too, it should be possible to run a perfectly modern house from about 1.5kW of PV, or about $15,000.On 7/15/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 15, 2006, at 6:27 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: You need to talk to Zeke.For those prices, you could fly him out, have him build you a system and fly back and it would be STILL half as much! Yo, Zeke !! Is that true?I'm a big believerin consultants, having been one myself inthe past. One warning, tho -- the bldg. dept.around here is REALLY up your armpit !! -K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
scratch and dent sales usually mark stuff down 30 or 40%, if you are lucky (or sneaky and totally uninhibited) you could find (or "find/make") ahigh end fridge the same cost as a regular fridge. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? Actually, for most people on PV systems nowadays, I recommend going to Sears and getting the most efficient GE or Kenmore fridge. They use about 30% more power than a Sunfrost, but cost about a third as much, and you can add a few extra solar panels for this. Regular AC fridges used to be really bad, but in the last 5 years they've gotten decent... On 7/16/06, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be nice. Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use.I agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh! I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic.That's already on its own PV array :-)-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/389 - Release Date: 7/14/2006 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/389 - Release Date: 7/14/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Ken, Still, it would be very silly to spend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was not satisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PGE also. I guess that's why you need to size your consumption and determine where you can shave peak and continual use to determine your final costs. That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what level of inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate, See above. There may be no inconvenience to tolerate. Besides, it's not a bad idea to remember the words of Socrates. Hunger is good sauce. Same holds true for tightening the energy belt. Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take? :-) You could probably shave it down to 12 with a little effort, including an electric fridge. I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to the manger yet, and your technically already off the grid by virtue of not having any substitute as of yet, just what have you been doing for power up to this point? Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the building? Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid. Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have your penchant, me thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for not having a go at it right out of the chute. Todd Swearingen Ken Provost wrote: On Jul 16, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Appal Energy wrote: Well, since you invited the infusion of other's thought patterns I did indeed, Todd, and your thoughts as usual are cogent. It's true that the comforts of cheap electricity that I've enjoyed all my life has raised the bar of my imagined needs much higher than they probably are. Still, it would be very silly to spend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was not satisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PGE also. That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what level of inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate, so I'd prefer to err on the side of having excess capacity (which of course I don't have to use). All your ideas are excellent, and many of them are already designed in. I expect to run house and shop on maybe 15 kWh per day average, which is much less than any home I've had before. But one could always do better. Just how much does a man or woman need to live, be happy and be of service to others? Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take? :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 17, 2006, at 4:17 PM, Appal Energy wrote:.. you need to size your consumption and determine whereyou can shave peak and continual use to determine your finalcosts.There may be no "inconvenience" to tolerate. I actually did all that last year, but I believe I was not sufficientlydaring. After some more research and considering all the greatinputs from the group, I believe an offgrid PV system of around2000 watts nominal, with some batteries and a 5kW genset, canbe had for nearly the same $ as PGE wants. With some carefulplanning, my needs should be covered in the summer without running the genset much if at all.I'm kind of curious though. If you don't have electricity to themanger yet, and you're technically already off the grid by virtue ofnot having any substitute as of yet, just what have you been doingfor power up to this point?10 awg extension cord 300 feet to a 20A outlet in the neighbor'sgarage :-)Or are you still applying the earth plaster and getting ready to wire the building?Garage is done, house is up to floor joists -- garage bales arelime plastered, and the wiring is done, from the (as yet unconnected)breaker box...Personally? You'll be a much happier camper if you stay off the grid.Mainstream isn't where it's at. For people who seem to have yourpenchant, me thinks you'd always kick yourself in the butt for nothaving a go at it right out of the chute.I think you're spot on there -- after all the financial analysis andthe amps and watts, it comes down to lifestyle and spiritual issues,like so much else. Thanks again for your (and everyone's) inputs on this. I'll let youknow how it plays out...-K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Dear Kevin, I do this for a living. My company is based in Australia and we supply off-the-homes with power. In outback Australia it can cost upwards of $150,000 to connect to the grid. You should never use a large diesel genset unless you intend to use it to its maximum capacity, running a diesel genset at half load or less will greatly reduce the life of the motor. The best is to create a diesel-battery hydrib system where the diesel genset act large a battery charger and runs at full power (usually 3 hours) until the batteries are charged, you then run off the batteries through an inverter for the rest of the time. During the charging process you can run a heat exchanger through the radiator to heat a water supply for either hot water for your house or what I do a lot of in Australia is hydronic underfloor heating. Also I would try to introduce solar voltaic panels which will give you enough energy for the summer period while during the winter period the system will rely more on the energy from the diesel. It is very important to work out what your energy usage is before you start designing a system. I am happy to help. I have modelling software to help come up with the most economic system. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2006 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Jason Katie wrote: is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power under $1 so far, and that's 200 amps of 120 VAC! Maybe even overkill (it's a single-family dwelling, 1400 sq ft, strawbale, plus detached strawbale shop). Around here propane would be most practical -- not great I know, but I wouldn't be able to make enough biodiesel/methane/whatever. and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). This is sunny logging country (Sierra foothills) so a wood/propane multifuel boiler for radiant heat, with solar hot water backup, would be very doable. 3600W PV system with batteries could supplant the generator more than half the year. It will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face. Oh boy :-)I hadn't really considered relying heavily on a motor- generator (noisy, smelly, polluting, especially in an area where grid power comes largely from hydro), but I admit the economics are compelling. Something to think about -- thanks! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 15, 2006, at 10:00 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: you can cogen for 5 cents a kwhr assuming you use the heat. Hardware is about 5 thousand dollars unless you want an electric stove. No electric stove. Could you elaborate a bit on the details, please? What hardware are we talking about? Solar panels, diesel genset? I can definitely see using the waste heat from a genset in my radiant underfloor heating system in the winter. A little harder to use the waste heat in the summer, but maybe the hottub, showers, etc. can use some of it. BTW, thanks to all for your replies. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Well, since you invited the infusion of other's thought patterns Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, What's somewhat offensive is that it takes that much power to keep you jolly. Your standard load should or could be much less. Peak load (power tools) could be handled by a generator, preferably diesel. Any average idiot of moderate brain can install PV and eliminate half the cost of a system. Refrigeration by something along the lines of a Sunfrost or a home-built, walk-in, gas absorption. Blown in insulation to R-40+ in attic and try the vertical cellulose (not blown in) for the walls. R value of fibergalss stinks at colder temps. And then, of course, there's always straw bale. Vacuous tube solar collectors for hot water. They heat even on cloudy days. White roof tile. Exterior window valances to eliminate direct solar gain through windows. Keep every tree you can. Mount your PV apart from the roof. Too many people sacrifice their shade trees and mount the solar on their roof, in effect losing a very large portion of what they're trying to gain. Masonry stove. Appropriately placed louvered (adjustable) vents to allow heat circulation in the most distant rooms. Full basement if possible with door at top of stairwell between 1st and 2nd floor. You'd be surprised how cool the first floor will stay all summer using the basement walls as a heat exchanger. I guess the real question that has to be asked is At what expense are you getting all your jollies? This whole tool autonomy mindset is what's driven consumerism to levels that have never been sustainable and have brought us to the brink that we're on now. Just how much does a man or woman need to live, be happy and be of service to others? Todd Swearingen Ken Provost wrote: Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Why not think as carbon neutral as possible? Todd Swearingen Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hi Ken, how about a 25KVA Genset run on Methanegaz? it seems to me Methane is the Way to go! Why... there is the transport and handling of the Biofuel a lot of manpower involved! You can set up a Methaneproduction with your Wast,the Bacteria will do the work for you and your own Methaneproduction will be put to good use instead of releasing it in the Athmosphere,where it contributes to global warming! with a budget of 17 US grands i would not hesitate ,its a one time spending,than you are homefree Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Jason Katie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:33 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power(on BD of course), and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). it will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.(oh BTW, show him the total cost and compare his first estimate, then tell him to take his 17000 powerline and stick it! ;D ) Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:35 PM Subject: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/389 - Release Date: 7/14/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Ken, Along time ago I looked at a generator/battery hybrid system for eliminating the grid. At that time power by the Kw was relatively cheap and it didn't break even as far as Dollars and Cents. But it came close when fugitive heat was considered to heat water. But dollars and cents is not the only consideration nor should it be the most important. I am currently going back to the idea and I can get power cheaper than anyone off the grid. I feel that I can afford to put it into place and as a result I will have independence and more importantly my family will be making a stronger move to becoming GREEN. (using Biodiesel) There are batteries made that have a greater life than the standard lead acid and with an inverter they allow you to have the convenience of turning on power night or day - the generator is for charging only. I would invest the money into a good off grid system. A $ poor decision but a much wiser decision all considered. Good luck, Jim Ken Provost wrote: Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Worth doing if only for that. I wouldnt hesitate for a moment to be sans Edison. Every lightning storm I unplug sensitive apparatus since the grid is a big lightning rod. Wouldnt have that problem with my own.KirkJJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken,Along time ago I looked at a generator/battery hybrid system for eliminating the grid. At that time power by the Kw was relatively cheap and it didn't break even as far as Dollars and Cents. But it came close when fugitive heat was considered to heat water.But dollars and cents is not the only consideration nor should it be the most important. I am currently going back to the idea and I can get power cheaper than anyone off the grid. I feel that I can afford to put it into place and as a result I will have independence and more importantly my family will be making a stronger move to becoming GREEN. (using Biodiesel)There are batteries made that have a greater life than the standard lead acid and with an inverter they allow you to have the convenience of turning on power night or day - the generator is for charging only.I would invest the money into a good off grid system. A $ poor decision but a much wiser decision all considered.Good luck,JimKen Provost wrote:Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line700 ft away -- $17000 USD !Granted, a good standalone system would be at leasttwice that, given my love of power tools and radiantfloor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, andit's almost like they priced the connection at the maximumthat would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughtswould be welcome.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 16, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Appal Energy wrote: Well, since you invited the infusion of other's thought patterns I did indeed, Todd, and your thoughts as usual are cogent. It's true that the comforts of cheap electricity that I've enjoyed all my life has raised the bar of my imagined needs much higher than they probably are. Still, it would be very silly to spend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was not satisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PGE also. That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what level of inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate, so I'd prefer to err on the side of having excess capacity (which of course I don't have to use). All your ideas are excellent, and many of them are already designed in. I expect to run house and shop on maybe 15 kWh per day average, which is much less than any home I've had before. But one could always do better. Just how much does a man or woman need to live, be happy and be of service to others? Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take? :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Micro_Cogeneration/ Download the free book in the files section. You can get a deja browser plugin (free) at lizardtech.comYes, a diesel genset Size it to run at 3/4 of max as that is about the peak for fuel efficiency. Maxing them runs them too rich. Like being behind an 18 wheeler on a hill. With biofuel the exhaust is much more benign. The soydiesel project in Missouri was running soy powered forklifts in a warehouse. Try that with pump diesel. Drop you to your knees. They said with soy it was like a propane powered forklift.Kirk Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 15, 2006, at 10:00 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: you can cogen for 5 cents a kwhr assuming you use the heat. Hardware is about 5 thousand dollars unless you want an electric stove.No electric stove. Could you elaborate a bit on thedetails, please? What hardware are we talking about?Solar panels, diesel genset? I can definitely see usingthe waste heat from a genset in my radiant underfloorheating system in the winter. A little harder to use thewaste heat in the summer, but maybe the hottub, showers,etc. can use some of it.BTW, thanks to all for your replies.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be nice. Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use. I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic. Thats $45 a month. Not so bad.KirkKen Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jul 16, 2006, at 7:48 AM, Appal Energy wrote: Well, since you invited the infusion of other's thought patternsI did indeed, Todd, and your thoughts as usual are cogent.It's true that the comforts of cheap electricity that I've enjoyedall my life has "raised the bar" of my imagined needs muchhigher than they probably are. Still, it would be very silly tospend $10,000 to stay off-grid, only to find that I was notsatisfied and end up spending the $17,000 to get PGE also.That's part of the problem -- I don't really know what levelof inconvenience I'm willing to tolerate, so I'd prefer to erron the side of having excess capacity (which of course Idon't have to use). All your ideas are excellent, and manyof them are already designed in. I expect to run house andshop on maybe 15 kWh per day average, which is muchless than any home I've had before. But one could alwaysdo better. Just how much does a man or woman need to live, be happy and be of service to others?Good question -- 15 kWh per day, give or take? :-)-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be nice. Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use. I agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh! I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic. That's already on its own PV array :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Dear Kevin, With energy efficient appliances you must weigh up the cost of the appliance compared to how much it reduces the cost of the power system. For e.g if a frig/freezer uses a third of all your power and you could half the energy consumed by those appliances then the size of batteries, solar panels and fuel consumed would also reduce. typically you could reduce 1-1.5 solar panels, save at least 1 hour of generator running time per day and reduce your battery bank size to 3/4 of the original size. If you add all those savings together you would gain more than the cost of an energy efficient frig. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? On Jul 16, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Kirk McLoren wrote: If I had the bucks I suppose all these hi tech appliances would be nice. Unfortunately I dont so I have to use what most people use. I agree -- THOUSANDS of dollars for a refrigeratorsheesh! I think if you pump your own water 30 kWhrs a day is more realistic. That's already on its own PV array :-) -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power(on BD of course), and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). it will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.(oh BTW, show him the total cost and compare his first estimate, then tell him to take his 17000 powerline and stick it! ;D ) Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:35 PM Subject: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
Hi Ken, how about a 25KVA Genset run on Methanegaz? it seems to me Methane is the Way to go! Why... there is the transport and handling of the Biofuel a lot of manpower involved! You can set up a Methaneproduction with your Wast,the Bacteria will do the work for you and your own Methaneproduction will be put to good use instead of releasing it in the Athmosphere,where it contributes to global warming! with a budget of 17 US grands i would not hesitate ,its a one time spending,than you are homefree Fritz - Original Message - From: Jason Katie To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power(on BD of course), and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). it will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face.(oh BTW, show him the total cost and compare his first estimate, then tell him to take his 17000 powerline and stick it! ;D )JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: "Ken Provost" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:35 PMSubject: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Jason Katie wrote: is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power under $1 so far, and that's 200 amps of 120 VAC! Maybe even overkill (it's a single-family dwelling, 1400 sq ft, strawbale, plus detached strawbale shop). Around here propane would be most practical -- not great I know, but I wouldn't be able to make enough biodiesel/methane/whatever. and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). This is sunny logging country (Sierra foothills) so a wood/propane multifuel boiler for radiant heat, with solar hot water backup, would be very doable. 3600W PV system with batteries could supplant the generator more than half the year. It will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face. Oh boy :-)I hadn't really considered relying heavily on a motor- generator (noisy, smelly, polluting, especially in an area where grid power comes largely from hydro), but I admit the economics are compelling. Something to think about -- thanks! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
You need to talk to Zeke. For those prices, you could fly him out, have him build you a system and fly back and it would be STILL half as much! Ken Provost wrote: Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line 700 ft away -- $17000 USD ! Granted, a good standalone system would be at least twice that, given my love of power tools and radiant floor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, and it's almost like they priced the connection at the maximum that would still be (barely) advantageous to accept. I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughts would be welcome. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
On Jul 15, 2006, at 6:27 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: You need to talk to Zeke. For those prices, you could fly him out, have him build you a system and fly back and it would be STILL half as much! Yo, Zeke !! Is that true? I'm a big believer in consultants, having been one myself in the past. One warning, tho -- the bldg. dept. around here is REALLY up your armpit !! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
the generator would only be a lightly used temporary, and backup supply later on, at least that was what i had envisioned. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid? On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:33 PM, Jason Katie wrote: is it to a workshed or is it to your house? if it is a house, i personally would start with a 25Kw generator for main power under $1 so far, and that's 200 amps of 120 VAC! Maybe even overkill (it's a single-family dwelling, 1400 sq ft, strawbale, plus detached strawbale shop). Around here propane would be most practical -- not great I know, but I wouldn't be able to make enough biodiesel/methane/whatever. and then next begin replacing big energy sinks like heating and cooling with geothermal, woodfire, heating oil(and all its variants), biogas, or solar/solar-thermal systems (preferably a mix for reliability). This is sunny logging country (Sierra foothills) so a wood/propane multifuel boiler for radiant heat, with solar hot water backup, would be very doable. 3600W PV system with batteries could supplant the generator more than half the year. It will take a while, but after all is said and done, you can call out the PGE surveyor and rub it in his face. Oh boy :-)I hadn't really considered relying heavily on a motor- generator (noisy, smelly, polluting, especially in an area where grid power comes largely from hydro), but I admit the economics are compelling. Something to think about -- thanks! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.0/388 - Release Date: 7/13/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To Grid or Not to Grid?
you can cogen for 5 cents a kwhr assuming you use the heat. Hardware is about 5 thousand dollars unless you want an electric stove. KirkKen Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just got the quote from PGE for the hookup to a power line700 ft away -- $17000 USD !Granted, a good standalone system would be at leasttwice that, given my love of power tools and radiantfloor heat :-) Still it's offensive to just cave in to them, andit's almost like they priced the connection at the maximumthat would still be (barely) advantageous to accept.I'm tempted to stay offgrid just for 700 feet -- any thoughtswould be welcome.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
