Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Todd, I don't think we are thinking about the same type of efficiency here. I'm was thinking more in terms of production efficiency rather than the energy efficiency you appear to be talking about. Looking back at the original, it looks like I missed parts of it.My bad. When Efficient and Factories are put together, I think in terms of labor, and production.I don't know why, I just do.To me, efficient factories conjures images of fewer people and more machines or higher quotas.Perhaps it was because I used to work in a small manufacturing facility, as a sheet metal grind tech, and our performance was based on quantity and not quality. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 17:40 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi Greg, Nothing personal here. But this is precisely the type of knee jerk, superficial thought that every special interest preys upon to put more sentiment and votes in their camp. For instance: 2.1 jobs created in the energy efficiency/conservation business in comparison to one new job for an equivalent amount of BTUs in new energy production. (Energy Unbound, Amory Lovins, circa eons ago.) A job lost could mean 2.1 jobs gained. And we're not speaking of mindless assembly work in a compact fluorescent bulb facility, or at least not necessarily or entirely. There are millions of jobs that would be available if the nation made the radical switch to an energy responsible economy. In any event, it's probably a fairly safe bet that a large percentage of the unemployed population would be elated to have a job that could be considered skilled labor, not burger flipper. The solutions aren't excessively simple. Nor are they excessively complex. All that is required is cohesive effort, cradle to grave, hectare to digester to wind tower to cogen to Detroit to Schwartzenhogger to Shrub. And if they can't get a grip on the wagon to climb on board or at least lend a shoulder to push? Well..., you know the answer to that one. Just so long as it's their legs that are wet and not mine or yours. Todd Swearingen Unions. More efficient factories, mean fewer workers.Someone is going to lose their job. Greg H. - Original Message - *From:* Gustl Steiner-Zehender mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:38 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi Hallo All, I received this exchange which has been taking place among some of my friends. Any comments? They will be forwarded by me to these folks. Happy Happy, Gustl SNIP Item 2. More efficient factories: There isn't a manufacturer anywhere that wouldn't do that. Exactly why aren't they? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Item 1. Hybrid cars: Find the right person to ask, ask publically, and put the answer in print: Why is it that four years ago hybrids got 50 mpg, and now they get 25 mpg? What's the point? This is because the US market has been focused on performance, not efficiency. The first hybrids were seen as suitable only for environmental wackos, sort of like the old slow diesel cars. To break into the mainstream market, hybrid cars had to do what every other technology for increasing efficiency has done -- allowed the use of higher power engines without sacrificing mileage. I don't have the numbers handy, but I believe the average HP per pound of passenger cars and trucks in the US has close to doubled since the mid 70's, yet the average new car still gets about the same mileage. If they had kept the relative power the same as back then, then a standard gasoline car nowadays would get better mileage than 70's cars because of all the technology improvements -- fuel injection, variable valve timing, overhead multivalve engines, more transmission speeds, lockup torque converters, etc. The new hybrid cars are following the same trend -- the power of a V6, but the economy of a 4 cylinder Even the new diesels from VW available in the US are this way -- way faster than old ones, but the same mileage, while ones like the Lupo have proven that much higher mileage is possible if we are willing to do with a little less acceleration -- and even a lupo has better acceleration than an old NA diesel rabbit... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Things I see missing are: - Diesel Hybrids - Should be like ELSBETT (native SVO) and have plug-in option (bidirectional, run house from car/charge car from house) - Efficiency of airplanes and semi-trucks - Biofuels?!? - Sustainable farming? Urban farming? - Where is all the money going to come from for this renewal/tax breaks? ( I reckon we could take back the giveaways to Exxon and Chevron and stop starting oil wars.) - How about education and training for these 3 million new workers? I agree withe more efficient factories with cogen and woo hoo public transport and pedal power! But, I see they mention the Hydrogen Future whatever that means, we have to get the hydrogen from somewhere. Let's start with New Orleans and the Gulf Coast rebuilding. On 10/13/05, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo All,Ireceived this exchange which has been taking place among some of myfriends. Any comments?They will be forwarded by me to these folks.Happy Happy,GustlI came accross this ten point plan from the Appollo Project that seems like a reasonable place to start on diversifying our energysources.Among all of the proposals I believe that we need toinvest more resources in R D.- The Ten-Point Plan for Good Jobs and Energy Independencehttp://www.apolloalliance.org/strategy_center/a_bold_energy_and_jobs_policy/ten_point_plan.cfm 1. Promote Advanced Technology Hybrid Cars: Begin today toprovide incentives for converting domestic assembly lines tomanufacture highly efficient cars, transitioning the fleet toAmerican made advanced technology vehicles, increasing consumer choice and strengthening the US auto industry.2. Invest In More Efficient Factories: Make innovative use of thetax code and economic development systems to promote more efficientand profitable manufacturing while saving energy through environmental retrofits, improved boiler operations, and industrialcogeneration of electricity, retaining jobs by investing in plantsand workers.3. Encourage High Performance Building: Increase investment in construction of "green buildings" and energy efficient homes andoffices through innovative financing and incentives, improvedbuilding operations, and updated codes and standards, helpingworking families, businesses, and government realize substantial cost savings.4. Increase Use of Energy Efficient Appliances: Drive a newgeneration of highly efficient manufactured goods into widespreaduse, without driving jobs overseas, by linking higher energy standards to consumer and manufacturing incentives that increasedemand for new durable goods and increase investment in USfactories.5. Modernize Electrical Infrastructure: Deploy the best availabletechnology like scrubbers to existing plants, protecting jobs and the environment; research new technology to capture and sequestercarbon and improve transmission for distributed renewablegeneration.6. Expand Renewable Energy Development: Diversify energy sources by promoting existing technologies in solar, biomass and wind whilesetting ambitious but achievable goals for increasing renewablegeneration, and promoting state and local policy innovations thatlink clean energy and jobs. 7. Improve Transportation Options: Increase mobility, job access,and transportation choice by investing in effective multimodalnetworks including bicycle, local bus and rail transit, regionalhigh-speed rail and magnetic levitation rail projects. 8. Reinvest In Smart Urban Growth: Revitalize urban centers topromote strong cities and good jobs, by rebuilding and upgradinglocal infrastructure including road maintenance, bridge repair, andwater and waste water systems, and by expanding redevelopment of idled urban "brownfield" lands, and by improving metropolitanplanning and governance.9. Plan For A Hydrogen Future: Invest in long term research development of hydrogen fuel cell technology, and deploy the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars and distributedelectricity generation using stationary fuel cells, to create jobsin the industries of the future.10. Preserve Regulatory Protections: Encourage balanced growth and investment through regulation that ensures energy diversity andsystem reliability, that protects workers and the environment, thatrewards consumers, and that establishes a fair framework foremerging technologies. ===End of original message text===-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Things I see missing are: - Diesel Hybrids - Should be like ELSBETT (native SVO) and have plug-in option (bidirectional, run house from car/charge car from house) - Efficiency of airplanes and semi-trucks - Biofuels?!? - Sustainable farming? Urban farming? - Where is all the money going to come from for this renewal/tax breaks? ( I reckon we could take back the giveaways to Exxon and Chevron and stop starting oil wars.) - How about education and training for these 3 million new workers? I agree withe more efficient factories with cogen and woo hoo public transport and pedal power! But, I see they mention the Hydrogen Future whatever that means, we have to get the hydrogen from somewhere. Let's start with New Orleans and the Gulf Coast rebuilding. On 10/13/05, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo All,Ireceived this exchange which has been taking place among some of myfriends. Any comments?They will be forwarded by me to these folks.Happy Happy,GustlI came accross this ten point plan from the Appollo Project that seems like a reasonable place to start on diversifying our energysources.Among all of the proposals I believe that we need toinvest more resources in R D.- The Ten-Point Plan for Good Jobs and Energy Independencehttp://www.apolloalliance.org/strategy_center/a_bold_energy_and_jobs_policy/ten_point_plan.cfm 1. Promote Advanced Technology Hybrid Cars: Begin today toprovide incentives for converting domestic assembly lines tomanufacture highly efficient cars, transitioning the fleet toAmerican made advanced technology vehicles, increasing consumer choice and strengthening the US auto industry.2. Invest In More Efficient Factories: Make innovative use of thetax code and economic development systems to promote more efficientand profitable manufacturing while saving energy through environmental retrofits, improved boiler operations, and industrialcogeneration of electricity, retaining jobs by investing in plantsand workers.3. Encourage High Performance Building: Increase investment in construction of "green buildings" and energy efficient homes andoffices through innovative financing and incentives, improvedbuilding operations, and updated codes and standards, helpingworking families, businesses, and government realize substantial cost savings.4. Increase Use of Energy Efficient Appliances: Drive a newgeneration of highly efficient manufactured goods into widespreaduse, without driving jobs overseas, by linking higher energy standards to consumer and manufacturing incentives that increasedemand for new durable goods and increase investment in USfactories.5. Modernize Electrical Infrastructure: Deploy the best availabletechnology like scrubbers to existing plants, protecting jobs and the environment; research new technology to capture and sequestercarbon and improve transmission for distributed renewablegeneration.6. Expand Renewable Energy Development: Diversify energy sources by promoting existing technologies in solar, biomass and wind whilesetting ambitious but achievable goals for increasing renewablegeneration, and promoting state and local policy innovations thatlink clean energy and jobs. 7. Improve Transportation Options: Increase mobility, job access,and transportation choice by investing in effective multimodalnetworks including bicycle, local bus and rail transit, regionalhigh-speed rail and magnetic levitation rail projects. 8. Reinvest In Smart Urban Growth: Revitalize urban centers topromote strong cities and good jobs, by rebuilding and upgradinglocal infrastructure including road maintenance, bridge repair, andwater and waste water systems, and by expanding redevelopment of idled urban "brownfield" lands, and by improving metropolitanplanning and governance.9. Plan For A Hydrogen Future: Invest in long term research development of hydrogen fuel cell technology, and deploy the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars and distributedelectricity generation using stationary fuel cells, to create jobsin the industries of the future.10. Preserve Regulatory Protections: Encourage balanced growth and investment through regulation that ensures energy diversity andsystem reliability, that protects workers and the environment, thatrewards consumers, and that establishes a fair framework foremerging technologies. ===End of original message text===-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Surely if we can find 300 billion to fund the Iraq war we could fund this. Paul S Cantrell wrote: Things I see missing are: - Diesel Hybrids - Should be like ELSBETT (native SVO) and have plug-in option (bidirectional, run house from car/charge car from house) - Efficiency of airplanes and semi-trucks - Biofuels?!? - Sustainable farming? Urban farming? - Where is all the money going to come from for this renewal/tax breaks? ( I reckon we could take back the giveaways to Exxon and Chevron and stop starting oil wars.) - How about education and training for these 3 million new workers? I agree withe more efficient factories with cogen and woo hoo public transport and pedal power! But, I see they mention the "Hydrogen Future" whatever that means, we have to get the hydrogen from somewhere. Let's start with New Orleans and the Gulf Coast rebuilding. On 10/13/05, Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo All, Ireceived this exchange which has been taking place among some of my friends. Any comments?They will be forwarded by me to these folks. Happy Happy, Gustl I came accross this ten point plan from the Appollo Project that seems like a reasonable place to start on diversifying our energy sources.Among all of the proposals I believe that we need to invest more resources in R D. - The Ten-Point Plan for Good Jobs and Energy Independence http://www.apolloalliance.org/strategy_center/a_bold_energy_and_jobs_policy/ten_point_plan.cfm 1. Promote Advanced Technology Hybrid Cars: Begin today to provide incentives for converting domestic assembly lines to manufacture highly efficient cars, transitioning the fleet to American made advanced technology vehicles, increasing consumer choice and strengthening the US auto industry. 2. Invest In More Efficient Factories: Make innovative use of the tax code and economic development systems to promote more efficient and profitable manufacturing while saving energy through environmental retrofits, improved boiler operations, and industrial cogeneration of electricity, retaining jobs by investing in plants and workers. 3. Encourage High Performance Building: Increase investment in construction of "green buildings" and energy efficient homes and offices through innovative financing and incentives, improved building operations, and updated codes and standards, helping working families, businesses, and government realize substantial cost savings. 4. Increase Use of Energy Efficient Appliances: Drive a new generation of highly efficient manufactured goods into widespread use, without driving jobs overseas, by linking higher energy standards to consumer and manufacturing incentives that increase demand for new durable goods and increase investment in US factories. 5. Modernize Electrical Infrastructure: Deploy the best available technology like scrubbers to existing plants, protecting jobs and the environment; research new technology to capture and sequester carbon and improve transmission for distributed renewable generation. 6. Expand Renewable Energy Development: Diversify energy sources by promoting existing technologies in solar, biomass and wind while setting ambitious but achievable goals for increasing renewable generation, and promoting state and local policy innovations that link clean energy and jobs. 7. Improve Transportation Options: Increase mobility, job access, and transportation choice by investing in effective multimodal networks including bicycle, local bus and rail transit, regional high-speed rail and magnetic levitation rail projects. 8. Reinvest In Smart Urban Growth: Revitalize urban centers to promote strong cities and good jobs, by rebuilding and upgrading local infrastructure including road maintenance, bridge repair, and water and waste water systems, and by expanding redevelopment of idled urban "brownfield" lands, and by improving metropolitan planning and governance. 9. Plan For A Hydrogen Future: Invest in long term research development of hydrogen fuel cell technology, and deploy the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars and distributed electricity generation using stationary fuel cells, to create jobs in the industries of the future. 10. Preserve Regulatory Protections: Encourage balanced growth and investment through regulation that ensures energy diversity and system reliability, that protects workers and the environment, that rewards consumers, and that establishes a fair framework for emerging technologies. ===End of original message text=== -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Unions. More efficient factories, mean fewer workers. Someone is going to lose their job. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender To: Biofuel Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:38 Subject: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi Hallo All,I received this exchange which has been taking place among some of myfriends. Any comments? They will be forwarded by me to these folks.Happy Happy,GustlSNIP Item 2. More efficient factories: There isn't a manufactureranywhere that wouldn't do that. Exactly why aren't they? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
The interesting thing is that unions are all over it: http://www.apolloalliance.org/about_the_alliance/#3 United Steelworkers, AFL-CIO etc. I think they are interested in increasing overall production thereby increasing overall employment and those cogen plants employ some more. I also wonder where the raw material are going to come from if industrail hemp remains illegal?On 10/13/05, Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unions. More efficient factories, mean fewer workers. Someone is going to lose their job. Greg H. -- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Greg, Nothing personal here. But this is precisely the type of knee jerk, superficial thought that every special interest preys upon to put more sentiment and votes in their camp. For instance: 2.1 jobs created in the energy efficiency/conservation business in comparison to one new job for an equivalent amount of BTUs in new energy production. (Energy Unbound, Amory Lovins, circa eons ago.) A job lost could mean 2.1 jobs gained. And we're not speaking of mindless assembly work in a compact fluorescent bulb facility, or at least not necessarily or entirely. There are millions of jobs that would be available if the nation made the radical switch to an energy responsible economy. In any event, it's probably a fairly safe bet that a large percentage of the unemployed population would be elated to have a job that could be considered skilled labor, not burger flipper. The solutions aren't excessively simple. Nor are they excessively complex. All that is required is cohesive effort, cradle to grave, hectare to digester to wind tower to cogen to Detroit to Schwartzenhogger to Shrub. And if they can't get a grip on the wagon to climb on board or at least lend a shoulder to push? Well..., you know the answer to that one. Just so long as it's their legs that are wet and not mine or yours. Todd Swearingen Unions. More efficient factories, mean fewer workers.Someone is going to lose their job. Greg H. - Original Message - *From:* Gustl Steiner-Zehender mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:38 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi Hallo All, I received this exchange which has been taking place among some of my friends. Any comments? They will be forwarded by me to these folks. Happy Happy, Gustl SNIP Item 2. More efficient factories: There isn't a manufacturer anywhere that wouldn't do that. Exactly why aren't they? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
Development of solar PV will lead to jobs and investment in areas of the country that manufacture the parts that make up a PV system, in addition to locations that install the systems. More: http://www.repp.org/ Appal Energy wrote: Greg, Nothing personal here. But this is precisely the type of knee jerk, superficial thought that every special interest preys upon to put more sentiment and votes in their camp. For instance: 2.1 jobs created in the energy efficiency/conservation business in comparison to one new job for an equivalent amount of BTUs in new energy production. (Energy Unbound, Amory Lovins, circa "eons ago.") A job lost could mean 2.1 jobs gained. And we're not speaking of mindless assembly work in a compact fluorescent bulb facility, or at least not necessarily or entirely. There are millions of jobs that would be available if the nation made the radical switch to an energy responsible economy. In any event, it's probably a fairly safe bet that a large percentage of the unemployed population would be elated to have a job that could be considered skilled labor, not "burger flipper." The solutions aren't excessively simple. Nor are they excessively complex. All that is required is cohesive effort, cradle to grave, hectare to digester to wind tower to cogen to Detroit to Schwartzenhogger to Shrub. And if they can't get a grip on the wagon to climb on board or at least lend a shoulder to push? Well..., you know the answer to that one. Just so long as it's their legs that are wet and not mine or yours. Todd Swearingen Unions. More efficient factories, mean fewer workers.Someone is going to lose their job. Greg H. - Original Message - *From:* Gustl Steiner-Zehender mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:38 *Subject:* [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi Hallo All, I received this exchange which has been taking place among some of my friends. Any comments? They will be forwarded by me to these folks. Happy Happy, Gustl SNIP Item 2. More efficient factories: There isn't a manufacturer anywhere that wouldn't do that. Exactly why aren't they? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
