Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels may cost all households
Yikes! There have also been rumours in Australia that households could be charged for ´service availability´, where you would be charged even if you go off grid. Hopefully it will remain a rumour There is a Solar Company here in Lismore that is using LiPo cells to cut the draw at peak charge times too. Apparently it is very close to cost effective now (with power prices still rising in Australia) regards Doug On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 08:16:02 +0800 Tony cr...@vianet.net.au wrote: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16410796/solar-panels-may-cost-all-households/ Solar panels may cost all households Daniel Mercer, The West Australian Updated March 21, 2013, 2:10 am http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/130321/a_230209habecoideas1_18kjmp7-18kjmpb.jpg Solar panels may cost all households Solar panels WA households could have to pay a higher fixed charge for their electricity bills under a shake-up that would be aimed at recouping the spiralling cost of solar panels to the network. Amid concern from Western Power that households with solar panels are not paying their share of the grid's upkeep costs, it is understood the State Government may look at reforming the structure of bills. One option likely to be considered is charging a higher service fee, which currently amounts to 41.5 a day, or about $150 a year, for household customers of Synergy and Horizon. To offset the increase, the Government would lower variable charges, which according to last year's State Budget account for $1443 of the typical household electricity bill a year. However, though households which cut their electricity use would not necessarily be worse off under such a change - and might be better off - those unable to cut their use could be slugged even more. The possible reform is expected to be discussed as part of the energy roundtable convened by former energy minister Peter Collier to consider ways of reforming the State's electricity sector. Although the forum has met only once since it was established in October, there were predictions it would be maintained under Mike Nahan as Energy Minister. The boss of Western Power, Paul Italiano, warned in October that households with solar panels were able to shirk paying their fair share for the upkeep of WA's network of poles and wires. Mr Italiano said households with photovoltaic cells drew less energy from the grid and so had lower electricity bills, despite needing the same level of service as people without the systems. ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel -- Doug lema...@internode.on.net ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels may cost all households
Hi Doug Some 10 years ago here in the West ( 100km N/E of Perth) when the Shire was Putting in Deep sewage down my street I said I didnt want it I would rather have a Clivus Multrim Composting Toilet and Grey water system the Response was it is GOING PAST YOUR PLACE so you pay for it ! wether you hook into it or not The same Feed back was for the Rubbish removal as well I would have rather paid a nominal fee and take i to the Tip my self when needed In our society you get fined if you DO OR DON'T look after the environment either way they win ! Tony At 10:16 PM 2/04/2013 +1100, you wrote: Yikes! There have also been rumours in Australia that households could be charged for ´service availability´, where you would be charged even if you go off grid. Hopefully it will remain a rumour There is a Solar Company here in Lismore that is using LiPo cells to cut the draw at peak charge times too. Apparently it is very close to cost effective now (with power prices still rising in Australia) regards Doug On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 08:16:02 +0800 Tony cr...@vianet.net.au wrote: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16410796/solar-panels-may-cost-all-households/ Solar panels may cost all households ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels may cost all households
Lots of talk of the costs imposed on other people by people who install solar panels, but no mention of the benefit that people who install solar panels are giving to all of society by reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tony cr...@vianet.net.au wrote: http://au.news.yahoo.com/**thewest/a/-/newshome/16410796/** solar-panels-may-cost-all-**households/http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/16410796/solar-panels-may-cost-all-households/ Solar panels may cost all households Daniel Mercer, The West Australian Updated March 21, 2013, 2:10 am http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/**130321/a_230209habecoideas1_** 18kjmp7-18kjmpb.jpghttp://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/130321/a_230209habecoideas1_18kjmp7-18kjmpb.jpg Solar panels may cost all households Solar panels WA households could have to pay a higher fixed charge for their electricity bills under a shake-up that would be aimed at recouping the spiralling cost of solar panels to the network. Amid concern from Western Power that households with solar panels are not paying their share of the grid's upkeep costs, it is understood the State Government may look at reforming the structure of bills. One option likely to be considered is charging a higher service fee, which currently amounts to 41.5 a day, or about $150 a year, for household customers of Synergy and Horizon. To offset the increase, the Government would lower variable charges, which according to last year's State Budget account for $1443 of the typical household electricity bill a year. However, though households which cut their electricity use would not necessarily be worse off under such a change - and might be better off - those unable to cut their use could be slugged even more. The possible reform is expected to be discussed as part of the energy roundtable convened by former energy minister Peter Collier to consider ways of reforming the State's electricity sector. Although the forum has met only once since it was established in October, there were predictions it would be maintained under Mike Nahan as Energy Minister. The boss of Western Power, Paul Italiano, warned in October that households with solar panels were able to shirk paying their fair share for the upkeep of WA's network of poles and wires. Mr Italiano said households with photovoltaic cells drew less energy from the grid and so had lower electricity bills, despite needing the same level of service as people without the systems. __**_ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.**sustainablelists.orgSustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/** sustainablelorgbiofuelhttp://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels may cost all households
Hi Zeke, for most for-profit power generators, their emissions (heat, CO2, conventional pollutants, noise, toxins, carcinogens, etc.) are just 'externalities' they impose on society. Thus, the lack of these things are also an externality. Unless they can find a way to generate revenue from the damage not being done, these benefits are by definition of no value (cannot be 'internalized' for profit). The concept of the 'triple-bottom-line' is a nice construct for trying to score something for reduction of environmental costs. However, in my experience, the only thing that really matters to a corporation is money. So, if you want to encourage a particular direction or action, the incentive needs to be financial. That's what governments and mass action by consumers is supposed to do. (Government interventions, tax structures and effective consumer boycotts are amazingly effective, sometimes amazingly so. Our federal government seriously damaged the residential real estate market recently with a couple of measures, one of which should have resulted in the resignation of the Finance Minister). That's why I favour things like a carbon tax, environmental surety performance bonds and serious fines for violations (that get enforced). Once the owners of those solar panels that are grid connected get to the point they are producing a substantial amount of power, I wonder what impact they would have if they all elected to shut off their connection (supply to grid) on a hot summer weekday afternoon when demand is high? I wonder if a group action would get the utility's attention. Darryl On 02/04/2013 10:58 AM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: Lots of talk of the costs imposed on other people by people who install solar panels, but no mention of the benefit that people who install solar panels are giving to all of society by reducing pollution and greenhouse gas emissions On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Tony cr...@vianet.net.au wrote: snip -- Darryl McMahon Author, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy ___ Sustainablelorgbiofuel mailing list Sustainablelorgbiofuel@lists.sustainablelists.org http://lists.eruditium.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
Yeah but as the story goes it all depends on marketability. The $1.00/Watt barrier is what stands between us and a world of alternative energy. (for some reason people hang on to this idea that everything should be available for as little as possible?? -one of the reasons capitalism is doing what it is doing to the world, but I digress) One important factor is defect density as pointed out in the article. In semiconductor crystals lattice defects act as traps for charge carriers and ruin efficiency. That is why those cheap (well not so cheap actually) amorphous panels you find in stores are only 8 to 10 percent efficient. The defect density in amorphous materials is astronomically high. But amorphous silicon is relatively low cost and lends itself to mass production. The problem is the efficiency is so low it still kills you on the dollars per watt front. BTW in case anyone is considering amorphous panels caveat emptor because the panels initially produce more output and then the UV from the sun degrades the junction and the efficiency drops off. They do eventually stabilize and some manufacturers specify the wattage of the panel at this lower stable level (the reputable ones) and some other less reputable companies rate their panels at the higher output level and then you get a surprise a few months down the road. So don't forget to inquire about this if you buy them. Recently a local company began producing panels using a novel process involving silicon spheres bonded onto a foil substrate which results in a flexible panel and since the spheres are monocrystaline they do not suffer the fate of amorphous cells. The leverage of this idea is that metrological grade silicon (basically ground up leftovers and junk from the silicon industry) can be used to make the silicon balls and thus a huge cost savings results. It is still not below the dollar per watt mark but is a substantially better product for roughly the same money. I should mention that I do have some involvement with this company but do not stand to gain anything. I have no shares nor do any of my family members, I am involved with the research only and I post this for information only. The GaInN process I don't expect will ever be comercially viable unless a way is found to grow the material without the ultra high vacuum process. You never know. However, I think there is the distinct posibility that everything will be turned upside down by the organic semiconductor angle. Just as the photovoltaic application of GaInN was a logical extension of the blue LED technology so I think we will see research in photovoltaics spring from the exploding feild of organic LED's or OLED's These are the super bright whiteLED's that run for ever on little batteries because they have an encredibly high conversion efficiency. These devices are made by entirely different processes and have the potential to be really cheap and mass producible. Hang on to your hats. Joe Manzo, Emil wrote: Hi Joe, thanks for the link. On page 2 it states: Indium gallium nitride solar cells could be made. approaching the maximum theoretical efficiencies of better than 70 percent. The article I read centered on the patent of a deposition process. I dont remember the elements used though. Definitely a good read! With RD going on worldwide, theres bound to be more energy breakthroughs in our lifetime. Regards, Emil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:33 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels I wonder if it had to do with Gallium Indium Nitride? Check this link http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-perfect-solar-cell.html In a nutshell it works by varying the doping level of indium in Gallium Nitride so as to smoothly taper the bandgap of the material from low to high energy. This is a step beyond the multijunction cells which are the highest efficiency (25-35%) and extremely expensive used in the satellite industry. This approach could potentially use a graded profile of indium doping in a stack of junctions so that photons from the entire energy spectrum will find their home at some point within the device. I don't think this approaches 90% (is that an exaggeration) but 75% may be doable. This technique would require an MBE (molecular beam epitaxy) which is a ridiculously expensive ultra high vacuum deposition tool and material growth rates are painfully slow so although it has the potential to make super PV cells don't hold your breath to see them on the market. General consensus is that the viability point for the comercialization of solar power is somewhere at the dollar per watt mark. However these predictions were made based on some standard economic benchmarks. Due to what peak oil could do all bets are off on this figure for the future. Joe Manzo, Emil wrote: About 8-9 months
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
What about organic cells? I can't find the website of the company working on them right now, but I believe they were talking well below a $1/watt. I just saw a link that said $0.40/watt. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041220005834.htm Joe Street wrote: Yeah but as the story goes it all depends on marketability. The $1.00/Watt barrier is what stands between us and a world of alternative energy. (for some reason people hang on to this idea that everything should be available for as little as possible?? -one of the reasons capitalism is doing what it is doing to the world, but I digress) One important factor is defect density as pointed out in the article. In semiconductor crystals lattice defects act as traps for charge carriers and ruin efficiency. That is why those cheap (well not so cheap actually) amorphous panels you find in stores are only 8 to 10 percent efficient. The defect density in amorphous materials is astronomically high. But amorphous silicon is relatively low cost and lends itself to mass production. The problem is the efficiency is so low it still kills you on the dollars per watt front. BTW in case anyone is considering amorphous panels caveat emptor because the panels initially produce more output and then the UV from the sun degrades the junction and the efficiency drops off. They do eventually stabilize and some manufacturers specify the wattage of the panel at this lower stable level (the reputable ones) and some other less reputable companies rate their panels at the higher output level and then you get a surprise a few months down the road. So don't forget to inquire about this if you buy them. Recently a local company began producing panels using a novel process involving silicon spheres bonded onto a foil substrate which results in a flexible panel and since the spheres are monocrystaline they do not suffer the fate of amorphous cells. The leverage of this idea is that metrological grade silicon (basically ground up leftovers and junk from the silicon industry) can be used to make the silicon balls and thus a huge cost savings results. It is still not below the dollar per watt mark but is a substantially better product for roughly the same money. I should mention that I do have some involvement with this company but do not stand to gain anything. I have no shares nor do any of my family members, I am involved with the research only and I post this for information only. The GaInN process I don't expect will ever be comercially viable unless a way is found to grow the material without the ultra high vacuum process. You never know. However, I think there is the distinct posibility that everything will be turned upside down by the organic semiconductor angle. Just as the photovoltaic application of GaInN was a logical extension of the blue LED technology so I think we will see research in photovoltaics spring from the exploding feild of organic LED's or OLED's These are the super bright whiteLED's that run for ever on little batteries because they have an encredibly high conversion efficiency. These devices are made by entirely different processes and have the potential to be really cheap and mass producible. Hang on to your hats. Joe Manzo, Emil wrote: Hi Joe, thanks for the link. On page 2 it states: Indium gallium nitride solar cells could be made approaching the maximum theoretical efficiencies of better than 70 percent. The article I read centered on the patent of a deposition process. I don't remember the elements used though. Definitely a good read! With RD going on worldwide, there's bound to be more energy breakthroughs in our lifetime. Regards, Emil -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Joe Street *Sent:* Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:33 PM *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels I wonder if it had to do with Gallium Indium Nitride? Check this link http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-perfect-solar-cell.html In a nutshell it works by varying the doping level of indium in Gallium Nitride so as to smoothly taper the bandgap of the material from low to high energy. This is a step beyond the multijunction cells which are the highest efficiency (25-35%) and extremely expensive used in the satellite industry. This approach could potentially use a graded profile of indium doping in a stack of junctions so that photons from the entire energy spectrum will find their home at some point within the device. I don't think this approaches 90% (is that an exaggeration) but 75% may be doable. This technique would require an MBE (molecular beam epitaxy) which is a ridiculously expensive ultra high vacuum deposition tool and material growth rates are painfully slow so although it has the potential
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
I haven't heard of anything much higher than 30 percent efficient. Mike See also: "An unexpected discovery could yield a full spectrum solar cell"Nov 18, 2002 http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-full-spectrum-solar-cell.html A Step Closer to the Optimum Solar Cell March 24, 2004 http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sb-MSD-multibandsolar-panels.html"Manzo, Emil" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: About 8-9 months ago I read a report about a man who invented a process that yielded a high-efficiency solar panel. Like 90%. The process reminded me of the way they make super high density integrated circuits. His website was ardev.com and when I went back again it went down (I think its some kind of flower site now). The announcement said he refused to just sell off the patent because he wanted it to actually be produced. He was teaming up with Westinghouse to produce the solar panels. Anybody hear something more about this? Perhaps it was BS. Regards, Emil ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
I wonder if it had to do with Gallium Indium Nitride? Check this link http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-perfect-solar-cell.html In a nutshell it works by varying the doping level of indium in Gallium Nitride so as to smoothly taper the bandgap of the material from low to high energy. This is a step beyond the multijunction cells which are the highest efficiency (25-35%) and extremely expensive used in the satellite industry. This approach could potentially use a graded profile of indium doping in a stack of junctions so that photons from the entire energy spectrum will find their home at some point within the device. I don't think this approaches 90% (is that an exaggeration) but 75% may be doable. This technique would require an MBE (molecular beam epitaxy) which is a ridiculously expensive ultra high vacuum deposition tool and material growth rates are painfully slow so although it has the potential to make super PV cells don't hold your breath to see them on the market. General consensus is that the viability point for the comercialization of solar power is somewhere at the dollar per watt mark. However these predictions were made based on some standard economic benchmarks. Due to what peak oil could do all bets are off on this figure for the future. Joe Manzo, Emil wrote: About 8-9 months ago I read a report about a man who invented a process that yielded a high-efficiency solar panel. Like 90%. The process reminded me of the way they make super high density integrated circuits. His website was ardev.com and when I went back again it went down (I think its some kind of flower site now). The announcement said he refused to just sell off the patent because he wanted it to actually be produced. He was teaming up with Westinghouse to produce the solar panels. Anybody hear something more about this? Perhaps it was BS. Regards, Emil ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
Emil, I think that you ca assume that it was BS, because to only to get a surface to absorb 90%, would be very difficult. If you managed to absorb 90%, your conversion process to electricity would then have 100% efficiency at always? Maybe the site do better in selling flowers. The highest serious numbers I have seen is 35-38% efficiency. The efficiency of currently mass produced common panels is 8-12%. This is lab data at 90 degree angle. Hakan At 19:02 30/08/2005, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD84.A4B9BB88 About 8-9 months ago I read a report about a man who invented a process that yielded a high-efficiency solar panel. Like 90%. The process reminded me of the way they make super high density integrated circuits. His website was ardev.com and when I went back again it went down (I think it's some kind of flower site now). The announcement said he refused to just sell off the patent because he wanted it to actually be produced. He was teaming up with Westinghouse to produce the solar panels. Anybody hear something more about this? Perhaps it was BS. Regards, Emil ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels
Hi Joe, thanks for the link. On page 2 it states: Indium gallium nitride solar cells could be made. approaching the maximum theoretical efficiencies of better than 70 percent. The article I read centered on the patent of a deposition process. I dont remember the elements used though. Definitely a good read! With RD going on worldwide, theres bound to be more energy breakthroughs in our lifetime. Regards, Emil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 2:33 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar panels I wonder if it had to do with Gallium Indium Nitride? Check this link http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/MSD-perfect-solar-cell.html In a nutshell it works by varying the doping level of indium in Gallium Nitride so as to smoothly taper the bandgap of the material from low to high energy. This is a step beyond the multijunction cells which are the highest efficiency (25-35%) and extremely expensive used in the satellite industry. This approach could potentially use a graded profile of indium doping in a stack of junctions so that photons from the entire energy spectrum will find their home at some point within the device. I don't think this approaches 90% (is that an exaggeration) but 75% may be doable. This technique would require an MBE (molecular beam epitaxy) which is a ridiculously expensive ultra high vacuum deposition tool and material growth rates are painfully slow so although it has the potential to make super PV cells don't hold your breath to see them on the market. General consensus is that the viability point for the comercialization of solar power is somewhere at the dollar per watt mark. However these predictions were made based on some standard economic benchmarks. Due to what peak oil could do all bets are off on this figure for the future. Joe Manzo, Emil wrote: About 8-9 months ago I read a report about a man who invented a process that yielded a high-efficiency solar panel. Like 90%. The process reminded me of the way they make super high density integrated circuits. His website was ardev.com and when I went back again it went down (I think its some kind of flower site now). The announcement said he refused to just sell off the patent because he wanted it to actually be produced. He was teaming up with Westinghouse to produce the solar panels. Anybody hear something more about this? Perhaps it was BS. Regards, Emil ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Solar Panels Might be Obligatory in Spain
Solar Panels Might be Obligatory in Spain Check it out... http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/afp/spain_energy_environment Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] Solar panels in Israel
MM, Yes, Israel have advanced technology and also a very practical outlook to engineering. I am impressed that they already several years ago realized the hot water production with solar panels and when the rest of the world are still to a large extent only talking, they have a nation wide implementation of a ready for use technology. Solar heated hot water have a payback period of 3 to 5 years and a life span of 10 to 15 years. A fantastic investment and they did something about it, that is practical and professional engineering. Hakan . At 05:58 PM 7/24/2003 -0700, murdoch wrote: Though the country is small in population, it does seem to show evidence of technological expertise and implementation in a number of alternative-energy areas. There is an Israel-US connection in the corporate culture of tiny little probably-won't-make-it-but-I-follow-them companies like Medis (ethanol fuel cells) and I think one or two others such as ARTX (Zinc-Air batteries, etc.) A side-note on Medis is that their Israeli engineers are basically Jewish-Russian emigres and that some of their innovations take advantage of what they learned working in Russia. Also, I seem to recall an alternative-energy conference of some sort being held there relatively recently. I had a high school history teacher who, in speaking of the Middle East, often used to point out that with Israeli technological ability and Arab-world Natural Resources, there could be great technological-business partnerships that could bring prosperity and growth to all. I have kept hoping this over the years for such situations, for example, as Saudi Arabia's inadequate electric power situation (there was an article a few years back discussing their lack of sufficient electric power in keeping with their growth dunno how true this is any longer). I wish that folks could work together to real mutual advantage. MM On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 02:32:08 +0200, you wrote: Israel is advanced in implementation of hot water production with solar panels. If you have been in Israel, it is almost on every house a combined hot water deposit with a solar panel. The techniques are not superior, but the common implementation is. Because of geographical location and abundance of sun, the panels as such can be somewhat simpler and the cost comparative low. Israel is already exporting this solar units to other countries. Israel have recently installed more and more PV technology for natural reasons, but they are of the type with 11% efficiency and as far as I can understand, it is imported technology from US. Hakan At 04:42 PM 7/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: This could long have been realized as a point of competitive pride between the Arabs and the Israelis. There's plenty of sunshine there - much of the time. The business prospects of perfecting the technologies there and then exporting superior solar technologies to the rest of the world are outstanding. Israel seems to be quite advanced in this area. Is sharing these advanced but decentralized technologies (mutually) advantageous? msc Barbara Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know of a campaign to restore electric power in Iraq with solar panels? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free shipping on all inkjet cartridge refill kit orders to US Canada. Low prices up to 80% off. We have your brand: HP, Epson, Lexmark more. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/GHXcIA/n.WGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
