Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
At 08:40 PM 12/12/2002, you wrote: This is a bit OT, but I don't know where else to address an audience with the potential interest level. I'm planning to build a new house in a rural area, and I'd like to do it in an ecologically sound way. The plan at present is 1700 sq.ft., straw bale walls, minimal usage of wood and concrete, Research , research, research... did I get my point across? Building a house is a BIG financial and lifestyle investment. Before you choose or discard any options try to find someone who has a working model of that component. Some research of straw bale that I ran across showed that within a year there was significant mold growth. I am sure this is climate related, yet certainly worth considering.I chose cellulose insulation, due to it's cost and the fact that it is recycled newspaper. I don't know whether this is why or not- but this winter (2nd in this house) we are overrun with mice living in it. Not that big a deal, (till you find the dead ones trapped in the file cabinet smelling up that whole room) but I never considered that. Also, wood is certainly a renewable resource- your common 2x4 can be harvested every 8-10 years on our woods. We are considering cob for our next building project. If you are building in a place with dirt-(not just sand). This may meet many of your goals. ( tip- I would purchase a tractor with a loader.) etc etc. I've run across a measure of environmental impact called embodied energy, which tries to include not only the energy required to manufacture the basic material, but also such factors as the energy needed to transport the raw and finished materials, the amount of labor needed to install (ie, transporting n workers to a site), This could also be interpreted as just plain expense, which comes up for everyone as they try to make a sustainable housing project a reality. The more unusual or out of the ordinary, unless very simple, will be more expensive in labor. This is a big deal IMO, construction workers are seldom known for their intellectual abilities. I chose a manufactured straight truss- only so their would be no on site labor cost and associated possible problems. I found a wonderfully easy to install reflective metal roof which my workers could install rather than getting a roofer. On the other hand, the insulation factory is 15 miles away, yet I had to purchase it from a retailer 30 miles away, in order to get use of the blower- wasteful, yet simpler and less expensive. as well as the lifetime of the end result. Once again this is an expense issue. I chose concrete blocks, stone or brick, because of so many old building I saw, still useable or reclaimable when clad in this material. As my aunt used to say- You can't build a 1990's house at 1960's labor prices. the labor that went into the brick on a colonial house has paid for itself, many times over. The clapboard has only been preserved with many coats of paint over the years. For this however, I think you must use your own common sense and think it out. What can you see currently that has lasted . This does give new stuff a serious disadvantage, but that is just the way it is. We chose an in floor radiant heat system. I have had lots of problems with the pump needing to be replaced EVERY year after being dormant for the summer. Perhaps it is a bad pump, yet this could become way more expensive and bothersome than a traditional tried and true heating system would have been. Unfortunately, this index (imprecise at best) DOESN'T typically seem to address two issues of particular concern to me -- carbon burden (atmospheric), and sustainability (how long will supplies of the material last at current consumption rates). Maybe that's because the bulk of the work was done in the 70's, when such info was less significant or not yet emphasized. Anyway, does anyone know of RECENT research addressing these issues as they pertain to home construction methods? Steel roofs vs comp shingle Don't know the embodied energy rating, but a reflective roof will significantly reduce cooling needs. One fellow at the DOE said that if CA had all white or reflective roofs they would have 100 less smog days per year. (This was heard during a conference I don't have a written reference, wish I did.) He said most folks don't like the look- thus we all pay a higher cost. :( -- concrete slab floor vs wooden joists -- solid timber beams vs engineered wood products, etc. ? What there is I could find, though I don't have it handy on this computer. If no one else answers on that, email me again after Christmas. I would be glad to share what I have. I took a year or two to study all these things before building this house. I can offer you my opinion and some experts to contact. The best thing is to find an example and go feel it. Ask about any unexpected bugs. (Our concrete floor was poured a bit too late in the fall- full of
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
- Original Message - From: Grahams Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 07:00 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy Research , research, research... did I get my point across? Building a house is a BIG financial and lifestyle investment. Before you choose or discard any options try to find someone who has a working model of that component. Some research of straw bale that I ran across showed that within a year there was significant mold growth. I am sure this is climate related, yet certainly worth considering. I to have researched straw bale construction, and the mold problem sounds like 2 things. The first is climate like you mentioned and the second is the construction of the outre layer of the wall. In a damp climate or one that can get cold if the outer layer of the wall can't breath, the water vapor just condences on the outer layer and causes the mold. In straw bale contruction it is important to have the outer layer be able to breath so you don't have the build up of water vapor and the condensation that follows. Don't know the embodied energy rating, but a reflective roof will significantly reduce cooling needs. One fellow at the DOE said that if CA had all white or reflective roofs they would have 100 less smog days per year. (This was heard during a conference I don't have a written reference, wish I did.) He said most folks don't like the look- thus we all pay a higher cost. :( I have heard somthing simular for Greenroofs ( roofs covered with plants ). This is one thing that I am wanting to do when we ( the wife and I ) build. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Corrugated steel roofing (was Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Ken, I've built a couple of outbuildings on my lot in Berkeley using corrugated steel roofing, and I just used conventional rafters with purlins - 2x4's in one case, 3x6's in the other - running at right angles to, and on top of, the rafters to support the corrugated. Very easy to do, and the corrugated goes up way quicker than any other kind of roofing. Where in Tuolumne County are you? - I have an engineer friend who's building a rammed earth house in Strawberry. He found the building inspection department very easy to deal with, and he might be able to help you with getting strawbale to fly. You wrote: snip I'm also planning on a steel roof, but I'm not sure what sort of support system to use (e.g., wood truss, steel truss, traditional rafters, etc). snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Hakan, Greg April, Caroline, et. al. -- Thanks for your detailed responses -- I'll check out all those ideas and more. I agree that the mold problem with straw bales could have been mitigated with proper permeability, and also it's import- ant EXACTLY how you support the first course of bales -- they have to be well-raised above the slab. I'm very interested in radiant heat, so I'll check on pump lifetimes as a possible problem. I'm also planning on a steel roof, but I'm not sure what sort of support system to use (e.g., wood truss, steel truss, traditional rafters, etc). I'm not even sure if I'll be able to get load-bearing strawbale past the building dept., but many in the area (Tuolumne County, CA) have paved the way, so the answers should be forthcoming. Another interesting subject is the whole passive solar thing -- I'd love to use clerestory windows, light tunnels, etc. The house will be at 3000 ft. elevation (914 m), light snow in the winter, often 105 F (40 C) in the summer. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
I know of someone who has a two story HUGE strawbale house in the Santa Cruz mountains, 12K of solar completely off the grid, solar water heating for both home, spa, and subfloor heading. They provided for awesome passive heating on the south window structure. Let me know if you want to visit and I will call them for a walk through. BTW, also have a Yoga studio attached to the house that one of the owners teachs in. Nice people with some great applications of doing things right. Just the idea that your going to use alternative building technology puts you ahead of 99.99% of standard building. James Slayden On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Grahams wrote: At 08:40 PM 12/12/2002, you wrote: This is a bit OT, but I don't know where else to address an audience with the potential interest level. I'm planning to build a new house in a rural area, and I'd like to do it in an ecologically sound way. The plan at present is 1700 sq.ft., straw bale walls, minimal usage of wood and concrete, Research , research, research... did I get my point across? Building a house is a BIG financial and lifestyle investment. Before you choose or discard any options try to find someone who has a working model of that component. Some research of straw bale that I ran across showed that within a year there was significant mold growth. I am sure this is climate related, yet certainly worth considering.I chose cellulose insulation, due to it's cost and the fact that it is recycled newspaper. I don't know whether this is why or not- but this winter (2nd in this house) we are overrun with mice living in it. Not that big a deal, (till you find the dead ones trapped in the file cabinet smelling up that whole room) but I never considered that. Also, wood is certainly a renewable resource- your common 2x4 can be harvested every 8-10 years on our woods. We are considering cob for our next building project. If you are building in a place with dirt-(not just sand). This may meet many of your goals. ( tip- I would purchase a tractor with a loader.) etc etc. I've run across a measure of environmental impact called embodied energy, which tries to include not only the energy required to manufacture the basic material, but also such factors as the energy needed to transport the raw and finished materials, the amount of labor needed to install (ie, transporting n workers to a site), This could also be interpreted as just plain expense, which comes up for everyone as they try to make a sustainable housing project a reality. The more unusual or out of the ordinary, unless very simple, will be more expensive in labor. This is a big deal IMO, construction workers are seldom known for their intellectual abilities. I chose a manufactured straight truss- only so their would be no on site labor cost and associated possible problems. I found a wonderfully easy to install reflective metal roof which my workers could install rather than getting a roofer. On the other hand, the insulation factory is 15 miles away, yet I had to purchase it from a retailer 30 miles away, in order to get use of the blower- wasteful, yet simpler and less expensive. as well as the lifetime of the end result. Once again this is an expense issue. I chose concrete blocks, stone or brick, because of so many old building I saw, still useable or reclaimable when clad in this material. As my aunt used to say- You can't build a 1990's house at 1960's labor prices. the labor that went into the brick on a colonial house has paid for itself, many times over. The clapboard has only been preserved with many coats of paint over the years. For this however, I think you must use your own common sense and think it out. What can you see currently that has lasted . This does give new stuff a serious disadvantage, but that is just the way it is. We chose an in floor radiant heat system. I have had lots of problems with the pump needing to be replaced EVERY year after being dormant for the summer. Perhaps it is a bad pump, yet this could become way more expensive and bothersome than a traditional tried and true heating system would have been. Unfortunately, this index (imprecise at best) DOESN'T typically seem to address two issues of particular concern to me -- carbon burden (atmospheric), and sustainability (how long will supplies of the material last at current consumption rates). Maybe that's because the bulk of the work was done in the 70's, when such info was less significant or not yet emphasized. Anyway, does anyone know of RECENT research addressing these issues as they pertain to home construction methods? Steel roofs vs comp shingle Don't know the embodied energy rating, but a reflective roof will significantly reduce cooling needs. One fellow at the DOE said that if CA had all white or reflective roofs they would have 100 less smog days per year. (This was
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
- Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:12 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy I'm not even sure if I'll be able to get load-bearing strawbale past the building dept., but many in the area (Tuolumne County, CA) have paved the way, so the answers should be forthcoming. Call it a building of post and beam construction with compressed cellouse insulation, and you will have described a straw bale house in terms that are meaningful and likely to get approved. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Yes, it puts your head on European medieval buildings and if you study works from restoration experts on this type of buildings, you can avoid a lot of problems. The key is to keep the construction open, so it can dry up any humidity sufficiently fast. The moment you apply any plastic paints or similar actions, it will start to rotten fast. This is the most common way of destroying a medieval building with straw in the wall construction. Will work very good with heated floors, because of its large heat or cold storage capacity and (high in winter, low in summer) inside surface temperatures. Straw bales do have quite good load bearing capacity, because they are pre-pressurized and a very large thickness. In the medieval construction they had a wooden frame, often oak, and applied the straw in the frame. The straw was glued together with clay or cement. Wall surfaces of unpainted stuck, with chicken net reinforcement is also one adapted traditional method. Your project will be very interesting and a rewarding one. It is fun to study and really understand the sustainable traditions of this kind of buildings. Have fun, Hakan At 10:15 AM 12/13/2002 -0800, you wrote: I know of someone who has a two story HUGE strawbale house in the Santa Cruz mountains, 12K of solar completely off the grid, solar water heating for both home, spa, and subfloor heading. They provided for awesome passive heating on the south window structure. Let me know if you want to visit and I will call them for a walk through. BTW, also have a Yoga studio attached to the house that one of the owners teachs in. Nice people with some great applications of doing things right. Just the idea that your going to use alternative building technology puts you ahead of 99.99% of standard building. James Slayden On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Grahams wrote: At 08:40 PM 12/12/2002, you wrote: This is a bit OT, but I don't know where else to address an audience with the potential interest level. I'm planning to build a new house in a rural area, and I'd like to do it in an ecologically sound way. The plan at present is 1700 sq.ft., straw bale walls, minimal usage of wood and concrete, Research , research, research... did I get my point across? Building a house is a BIG financial and lifestyle investment. Before you choose or discard any options try to find someone who has a working model of that component. Some research of straw bale that I ran across showed that within a year there was significant mold growth. I am sure this is climate related, yet certainly worth considering.I chose cellulose insulation, due to it's cost and the fact that it is recycled newspaper. I don't know whether this is why or not- but this winter (2nd in this house) we are overrun with mice living in it. Not that big a deal, (till you find the dead ones trapped in the file cabinet smelling up that whole room) but I never considered that. Also, wood is certainly a renewable resource- your common 2x4 can be harvested every 8-10 years on our woods. We are considering cob for our next building project. If you are building in a place with dirt-(not just sand). This may meet many of your goals. ( tip- I would purchase a tractor with a loader.) etc etc. I've run across a measure of environmental impact called embodied energy, which tries to include not only the energy required to manufacture the basic material, but also such factors as the energy needed to transport the raw and finished materials, the amount of labor needed to install (ie, transporting n workers to a site), This could also be interpreted as just plain expense, which comes up for everyone as they try to make a sustainable housing project a reality. The more unusual or out of the ordinary, unless very simple, will be more expensive in labor. This is a big deal IMO, construction workers are seldom known for their intellectual abilities. I chose a manufactured straight truss- only so their would be no on site labor cost and associated possible problems. I found a wonderfully easy to install reflective metal roof which my workers could install rather than getting a roofer. On the other hand, the insulation factory is 15 miles away, yet I had to purchase it from a retailer 30 miles away, in order to get use of the blower- wasteful, yet simpler and less expensive. as well as the lifetime of the end result. Once again this is an expense issue. I chose concrete blocks, stone or brick, because of so many old building I saw, still useable or reclaimable when clad in this material. As my aunt used to say- You can't build a 1990's house at 1960's labor prices. the labor that went into the brick on a colonial house has paid for itself, many times over. The clapboard has only been preserved with many coats of paint over the years. For this however, I think you must use
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
The mold issue with strawbale or ANY otherr building material all has to do with weather detailing, and with the type of plaster used (ie, I hate cement stucco) and if it's applied correctly. This covers a huge array of possible mistakes, and these mistakes also occur with stickframe houses (some of the 'toxic mold' issue with building is (oops I can't remember the species name) stuff that loves drywall! that is, if water leaks onto it with any regularity that is). Ideally, with strawbale, people should be paying more attention to weatherproofing and waterproofing detailing because it's fairly obvious that you need to, but like with any form of construction you have plenty of builders who don't have all the skills they should. And there are some issues with building codes not saying nearly enough about weather detailing- my friend whose been a contractor (conventional buildings, that is) for 30 years in hurricane country said that they pretty much had to invent their own techniques for that harsh (ie horizontal rain) climate, because there was little conventional thinking about waterproofing that covered the extreme conditions they worked with, and because the codes said zero about it there. Cob is great but there's climate issues with it too, and pros and cons to it and all other natural and synthetic building materials and techniques. I might be wrong but we stayed away from cob on a building project in Montana because of some kind of frost heave possibilities. I however am not a cob builder so I could be totally wrong about the factors that influenced that decision. Mark At 09:00 AM 12/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 08:40 PM 12/12/2002, you wrote: This is a bit OT, but I don't know where else to address an audience with the potential interest level. I'm planning to build a new house in a rural area, and I'd like to do it in an ecologically sound way. The plan at present is 1700 sq.ft., straw bale walls, minimal usage of wood and concrete, Research , research, research... did I get my point across? Building a house is a BIG financial and lifestyle investment. Before you choose or discard any options try to find someone who has a working model of that component. Some research of straw bale that I ran across showed that within a year there was significant mold growth. I am sure this is climate related, yet certainly worth considering.I chose cellulose insulation, due to it's cost and the fact that it is recycled newspaper. I don't know whether this is why or not- but this winter (2nd in this house) we are overrun with mice living in it. Not that big a deal, (till you find the dead ones trapped in the file cabinet smelling up that whole room) but I never considered that. Also, wood is certainly a renewable resource- your common 2x4 can be harvested every 8-10 years on our woods. We are considering cob for our next building project. If you are building in a place with dirt-(not just sand). This may meet many of your goals. ( tip- I would purchase a tractor with a loader.) etc etc. I've run across a measure of environmental impact called embodied energy, which tries to include not only the energy required to manufacture the basic material, but also such factors as the energy needed to transport the raw and finished materials, the amount of labor needed to install (ie, transporting n workers to a site), This could also be interpreted as just plain expense, which comes up for everyone as they try to make a sustainable housing project a reality. The more unusual or out of the ordinary, unless very simple, will be more expensive in labor. This is a big deal IMO, construction workers are seldom known for their intellectual abilities. I chose a manufactured straight truss- only so their would be no on site labor cost and associated possible problems. I found a wonderfully easy to install reflective metal roof which my workers could install rather than getting a roofer. On the other hand, the insulation factory is 15 miles away, yet I had to purchase it from a retailer 30 miles away, in order to get use of the blower- wasteful, yet simpler and less expensive. as well as the lifetime of the end result. Once again this is an expense issue. I chose concrete blocks, stone or brick, because of so many old building I saw, still useable or reclaimable when clad in this material. As my aunt used to say- You can't build a 1990's house at 1960's labor prices. the labor that went into the brick on a colonial house has paid for itself, many times over. The clapboard has only been preserved with many coats of paint over the years. For this however, I think you must use your own common sense and think it out. What can you see currently that has lasted . This does give new stuff a serious disadvantage, but that is just the way it is. We chose an in floor radiant heat system. I have had lots of problems with the pump needing to be replaced EVERY year after being
Re: Corrugated steel roofing (was Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 04:35, you wrote: Ken, I've built a couple of outbuildings on my lot in Berkeley using corrugated steel roofing, and I just used conventional rafters with purlins - 2x4's in one case, 3x6's in the other - running at right angles to, and on top of, the rafters to support the corrugated. Very easy to do, and the corrugated goes up way quicker than any other kind of roofing. Where in Tuolumne County are you? - I have an engineer friend who's building a rammed earth house in Strawberry. He found the building inspection department very easy to deal with, and he might be able to help you with getting strawbale to fly. Corrugated iron roofing is very common in Australa. The best seems to be the 'Colourbond' made by BHP. We have seen some cheap imports on corugated iron some of these have suffered paint failure, that dosen't happen to colourbond. There is a technique of using long sheets, on a curved roof. (Not sure how it would go with a snow load.) that is economical as there is no ridge cap etc. Email me if you want more info, plus I can give you some ideas on support systems. Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Ken Provost wrote: Hakan, Greg April, Caroline, et. al. -- I'm very interested in radiant heat, so I'll check on pump lifetimes as a possible problem. We put radiant heat in our floors, and we love it! The lower floor of our house has plastic hose buried in concrete. The upper floor has plastic pipe attached directly to the bottom of the floor. Of the two techniques, the concrete, due to its thermal mass, seems to perform more satisfactorily. Another advantage of radiant heating is that it can be supplied by solar. If your boiler fires a holding tank, supplemental solar thermal is an easy addition. We couldn't afford it, but that's something I really wanted to do. If you have the dollars, I'm sure it will be well worth the price of the installation. I'm also planning on a steel roof, but I'm not sure what sort of support system to use (e.g., wood truss, steel truss, traditional rafters, etc). Steel is heavy and expensive. We looked into that option too, and ended up with a wooden roof covered by conventional fiberglass shingles. The environmental compromises seem endless, unless you have a LOT of money, or are living in an area without building restrictions. I haven't been in Tuolumne County for at least twenty years, but it was pretty rural when I was there last. Perhaps the construction and lending people are more progressive down in California than they are up here. We faced a lot of opposition whenever we wanted to do something unconventional. (R-50 in the ceiling? Are you CRAZY?) Another interesting subject is the whole passive solar thing -- I'd love to use clerestory windows, light tunnels, etc. The house will be at 3000 ft. elevation (914 m), light snow in the winter, often 105 F (40 C) in the summer. -K Do the passive solar, superinsulate and conserve! The bank and your construction jockeys will not love you, but your family will appreciate the energy security. We just received our first heating bill. In the month that we've been in our house, we've used 8.3 gigajoules in natural gas for heat and domestic hot water. (For the metrically challenged among you, that's 78 672 Btu, or 23 kilowatt hours.) That's an astonishing amount of energy, but we understand that it's about 1 / 5 of what our neighbors are paying. . . Using the sun will cost you nothing but the initial investment, and if you're going to build, you're going to spend money anyway! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy Correction!
robert luis rabello wrote: In the month that we've been in our house, we've used 8.3 gigajoules in natural gas for heat and domestic hot water. (For the metrically challenged among you, that's 78 672 Btu, or 23 kilowatt hours.) That's an astonishing amount of energy, but we understand that it's about 1 / 5 of what our neighbors are paying. . . Sorry, but maths were never my strong point! 8.3 gigajoules is 230 kw hours! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy Correction!
That strawbale house I was referring to has 12K PV solar installed, and they pull in on a sunny day ~25Kwh a day, so that's around 750Kwh's a month on a good month. James Slayden On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, robert luis rabello wrote: robert luis rabello wrote: In the month that we've been in our house, we've used 8.3 gigajoules in natural gas for heat and domestic hot water. (For the metrically challenged among you, that's 78 672 Btu, or 23 kilowatt hours.) That's an astonishing amount of energy, but we understand that it's about 1 / 5 of what our neighbors are paying. . . Sorry, but maths were never my strong point! 8.3 gigajoules is 230 kw hours! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Steel is heavy and expensive. We looked into that option too, and ended up with a wooden roof covered by conventional fiberglass shingles. The environmental compromises seem endless, unless you have a LOT of money, or are living in an area without building restrictions. I haven't been in Tuolumne County for at least twenty years, but it was pretty rural when I was there last. Perhaps the construction and lending people are more progressive down in California than they are up here. We faced a lot of opposition whenever we wanted to do something unconventional. (R-50 in the ceiling? Are you CRAZY?) robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Steel roofing is a lightweight roofing system. Usually in Australia, we just use sheetrock ceilings, some form of truss to support the roof, sarking/fibreglass blanket under the steel roof, which is usually screwed to 2x2 battens, supported on the trusses at 36 centres. (Snow loads would need more strength) It is possible to make multi-cord crved roof trusses if you wish to go curved roof. (ie gang-nail truss, with top cord segmented to follow curve approximately) regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Embodied energy
Hi Ken, I was in contact a while ago with Bill Seavey, http://bajanet.com/featured_articles/three_little_pigs.htm He has some experience and can probably give you references on where to find more material. Hakan At 05:40 PM 12/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: This is a bit OT, but I don't know where else to address an audience with the potential interest level. I'm planning to build a new house in a rural area, and I'd like to do it in an ecologically sound way. The plan at present is 1700 sq.ft., straw bale walls, minimal usage of wood and concrete, etc etc. I've run across a measure of environmental impact called embodied energy, which tries to include not only the energy required to manufacture the basic material, but also such factors as the energy needed to transport the raw and finished materials, the amount of labor needed to install (ie, transporting n workers to a site), as well as the lifetime of the end result. Unfortunately, this index (imprecise at best) DOESN'T typically seem to address two issues of particular concern to me -- carbon burden (atmospheric), and sustainability (how long will supplies of the material last at current consumption rates). Maybe that's because the bulk of the work was done in the 70's, when such info was less significant or not yet emphasized. Anyway, does anyone know of RECENT research addressing these issues as they pertain to home construction methods? Steel roofs vs comp shingle -- concrete slab floor vs wooden joists -- solid timber beams vs engineered wood products, etc. ? -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
