Hallo Dan, Tuesday, 15 June, 2004, 18:07:50, you wrote:
DF> Your web sites about how bad Israel is don't mean a lot in this DF> discussion - all I'm saying is that if I had an enemy living as DF> close to me as Syria is to Israel, I wouldn't let them keep the DF> high ground after they had started shelling me from it either - DF> regardless of whether or not they owned it. Just like if someone DF> else's kid shoots me or my property with a BB gun, I take the gun DF> away before I inform their parents that they won't get it back. I can see that you did not bother to read much on the sites. They are not about "how bad Israel is", but how Israel intentionally and without provocation attacked the USS Liberty, an unarmed surveillance vessel, and killed 34 and wounded 172 US servicemen. This is how the "best friend" of the US treats us. That was not Iraqis or Palestinians killing our men. If this is how Israel treats its "friends" I shudder to imagine how it treats those it considers enemies, and in fact I don't have to imagine as it is done arrogantly and openly and defiantly without apology. DF> You can hate Israel or love it as you choose - I don't care how DF> you feel about them, but their military strategists are right on DF> in keeping Golan to defend themselves against a neighbor who DF> proved themselves to be hostile when they began shelling Israel DF> from that position in an effort to destroy Israel. If I were in DF> Israel's shoes, I would do exactly the same thing. This is not a matter of love or hate but of right or wrong. Your knowledge of history is lacking and skewed and if you are as cavalier in writing off the deaths of Palestinians and others with reasonable and justified grievances against Israel as you are at dismissing the reprehensible attack on the Liberty then the same can be said about your moral and ethical sensibilities. DF> As for the attack on the USS Liberty, I'm no expert and certainly DF> don't believe I've heard the whole story just from reading these DF> two web sites, but even if these two web sites do tell the whole DF> story, we'd have to see a lot more anti-American action from DF> Israel before distancing ourselves from them became an even DF> remotely palatable idea. Just like the French are still our allies DF> after the recent discoveries of their illegal arms sales to Saddam DF> Hussein and after the "accidental" bombing of the French Embassy DF> in Libya, sometimes human beings make flawed decisions and one or DF> two of these is not a reason to sever relationships or to have a DF> policy reversal. We are not speaking of one or two flawed decisions. We are talking about the terrorist actions of a rogue state-Israel. More and more Israelis are waking up to how evil their government is and the evil acts it perpetrates. I don't know how much more anti-American activity is needed. Nuclear secrets stolen, 34 dead and 172 wounded US servicemen, selling classified US technology to third parties. And the question is not whether their activities are anti-American or not, but whether they are moral and justified or not. By any decent standard they are not. As for those web sites. Jim Ennes was the XO of Liberty at the time of the attack and John Gidusko was a Communications Technician. They are both members of the NCVA which is a veterans organization limited to people serving under NSA/NSG command. The information they provide doesn't come any straighter. It is certainly truthful as opposed to the official US and Israeli versions. The crew of the Liberty was ordered not to speak of the Israeli attack while they were in the military but they aren't bound by those orders now. I served aboard USS Oxford (AGTR-1) which was a sister ship of Liberty and know the caliber of men who served aboard the technical research vessels. They don't come any better. I also know that if the government has any dirty laundry they want to keep from its citizenry that they just slap a classification on it with a GP-4 (do not automatically downgrade and declassify) and it is unavailable and can only be downgraded and declassified by the person who originally gave it the classification in the first place. Classifying information for political rather than legitimate security reasons is nothing new. As you apparently did not give a thorough examination of the two url's I provided perhaps you would like to try http://www.ussliberty.org which is the offical Liberty site and give some serious thought to the question of if this is how Israel treats "friends" then how is it treating "enemies". Also, the bottom line and long time political relations ought not be considerations when we are speaking of life and death matters whether it concerns Israel, France, Canada or whomever else. One life is just as precious as another. And also as Keith has said, this subject has been pretty well taken care of and is available in the archives. Happy Happy, Gustl DF> Dan DF> -----Original Message----- DF> From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DF> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:29 PM DF> To: Dan Fitzpatrick DF> Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] wondering about this comment DF> Hallo Dan, DF> Go check out these sites and then come back and defend Israel. DF> http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0693/9306019.htm DF> http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/ DF> This is the biofuels list and then some. No topic cops. DF> Happy Happy, DF> Gustl DF> Tuesday, 15 June, 2004, 13:10:08, you wrote: DF>> I visited Israel recently and toured the Golan among other places. DF>> The Golan is the perfect place for anyone bent on the destruction of DF>> Israel (like Syria professes to be) to possess so that they can just DF>> drop their artillery shells on the most inhabitted sections of the DF>> country. That's what they tried to do in 1967 and there is DF>> absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that they will not repeat DF>> that if they ever get the Golan back. The only way Israel can be DF>> secure is to retain the Golan and keep those people who wish to see Israel destroyed off of it. DF>> But isn't this supposed to be the biofuels list? DF>> Dan DF>> -----Original Message----- DF>> From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] DF>> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:57 AM DF>> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com DF>> Subject: Re: [biofuel] wondering about this comment DF>> Steve, DF>> This is one of the worse things I heard for a long - long time. We DF>> have international laws that regulate this and none is supporting DF>> your and Israel's view about individual ownership, as you are DF>> stating it. It might have been true some hundreds years ago, but DF>> today ownership must be respected. This have nothing to do with what DF>> the state occupies whoever, they are obliged by international law to DF>> respect individual property rights. An occupier have the obligation DF>> to protect the occupied population and provide a secure environment DF>> in accordance to international law and human rights. Israel does nothing of either. DF>> Personally I feel cheated, since I have for so long supported Israel DF>> and its right to live in peace and security. How can this state that DF>> for so long and in such a high degree, solicited and got my support, DF>> commit such crimes today. DF>> Every time I look at what you are saying, it get me more and more DF>> upset and how can anyone be so f-ing stupid. I do not normally get DF>> so upset and it is not good for my health. My friend, you do not fit DF>> in the modern society, with respect for human rights. How can anyone DF>> support land grab and stealing from individuals, who are the victims DF>> of a conflict between states and not personally responsible. DF>> How could you, Israel and the US government develop such a barbarian DF>> view. DF>> The negligence by US to follow the international laws in Iraq, might DF>> be a sign of both the US and Israel ignorance. Leaders and DF>> government of countries are expected to follow international laws, DF>> if not, they are criminals. Both US and Israel are bound to these DF>> laws and have ratified them, their behavior is not supportable. DF>> Hakan DF>> At 15:43 15/06/2004, you wrote: >>> >I am a neutral observer. To distinguish between what is just and >>> >what is not. Jews have taken other peoples' homes and have driven >>> >them out of their land. >>> > i understand that all the arabs have accepted the fact that Isreal >>> >is to exist. They have offered to live in peace provided Isreal >>> >returns all the land it stole from the arabs in 1967. Why have Jews >>> >rejected it? >>> >>>If this person went to work.. made money that he earned would he feel >>>that the money still belongs to his employer? >>> >>>When you capture territories in a war ... they are yours.. not the >>>people you captured it from. These are the same things.. >>> >>>That is why the Jews have rejected giving the land back. It is theirs.. >>>they were attacked... they won. >>> >>>End of story... this was not a land grab...this was the spoils of war. DF> -- DF> Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. DF> Mitglied-Team AMIGA DF> ICQ: 22211253-Gustli DF> ******** DF> The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. DF> C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" DF> ******** DF> Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. DF> ******** DF> Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. DF> George Carlin DF> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: DF> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html DF> Biofuels list archives: DF> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ DF> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. DF> To unsubscribe, send an email to: DF> [EMAIL PROTECTED] DF> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor DF> ADVERTISEMENT DF> click here DF> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129fe768p/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1087421352/A=2164331/R=0/SIG=11eaelai9/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183351> DF> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2164331/rand=118103117> DF> ________________________________ DF> Yahoo! Groups Links DF> * To visit your group on the web, go to: DF> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ DF> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DF> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DF> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . DF> The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs, DF> protected from disclosure, and may be privileged. DF> The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s) DF> of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, DF> you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of DF> this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. DF> If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately DF> by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. DF> Thank you. DF> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: DF> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html DF> Biofuels list archives: DF> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ DF> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. DF> To unsubscribe, send an email to: DF> [EMAIL PROTECTED] DF> Yahoo! Groups Links -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ******** Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! 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