Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Well, I *would* draw a distinction between *trading* games and *buying* them. I dislike the thought of being taxed for non-cash transactions. I tried to argue the same to a customs officer. His reasoning was that I paid by sending my game. Can you argue with that? Then your customs tax should consist of something like a cheap game, or a loose manual, or a few disks! B-) -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
[SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Hey gang, I won an auction the other day on Ebay, and last night I sent a mail to the seller of the item. In the mail I gave him my address and and also left him instructions on how to package the game, which means... no receipt, declare it as a gift etc... customs still have a way of overdoing it over here, and paying tax for items they consider new even though they are 15-20 years old is not my idea of fun and well spent money. Anyway, here is the first mail I got: Hello Stefan,First, thanks for bidding our auction. Second, we understand that you are trying to avoid the VAT and we symphathize with you. Should there really be much VAT, if any, on this. Also, since you are asking us to help you "dodge the law" so to speak, will you be willing to break the law for us? Say...go rob the neighborhood jewelry store for us. We realize you do not know us but hey, what the heck, one good turn deserves another.We can face serious legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc) for violating our international laws. All of our incoming and outgoing email messages are routed and filtered through legal authorities now, due to terrorism activities, so the chances of being caught are very very high.We are here for fun and a little profit and really do no wish to become entangled with legal problems, so we will do everything "above board" and legal. Besides, is it really worth smearing you character over paltry sums. If you are going to do it, make sure it involves millions. Would we not look stupid being dragged in handcuffs in public because we tried to evade customs , etc, for maybe nothing or pennies.Still want to deal? We, now, will only accept cold hard cash from you for your purchase. Since you have indicated that you want to thwart the law, maybe you are willing to thwart payment to us also. Some people like to pay and after receiving their item, cancel the payment. Who wins?Regards,national-server I was like... what? Never gotten anything like that before in 4 years of trading. Was not sure how to reply but after a while I started writing. Both professionally and pretty personal as well, and since he was so paranoid I just felt I had to annoy him.. just a little. So I included this in my mail: "So you mean that all your e-mails are possibly being read by others? So if I in this mail add words like muslim, Bush, bomb, terror.. the chance of having it read will be greater?" Part of his reply included: "The authorities tap the internet backbone whenever they wish for "national security" purposes and do not necessarily use just "keywords". Your messaging (and now mine) most likely will be flagged for watching because you did use keywords which causes automatic backbone routing to federal and international authorities. Tensions run high here now and just "joking" around is not immune to utmost surveillance. You see, we are not a free people anymore in the sense that we were. National security and "Homeland Defense" are and have been the nation's #1 priority ever since 9/11.Of course, we won't be paranoid because we have nothing to hide and wish to continue on with our day to day business transactions." As if I didnt know they would be flagged, that was why I wrote it, pure annoyance factor ;) And no, he is not the least paranoid.. sure.. Just thought I should share this with you. Has any of you guys had any trouble with people reacting hostile when you want them to ship it discrete in order to try to avoid unnecessary involvement by the customs? Guy has zero feedback btw, although he claims to have another user as well. /Stefan
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
In a message dated 01/14/2004 9:28:19 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was like... what? Never gotten anything like that before in 4 years of trading. Was not sure how to reply but after a while I started writing. Both professionally and pretty personal as well, and since he was so paranoid I just felt I had to annoy him.. just a little. So I included this in my mail: Well some sellers are actually in business and don't want to take any chances with the customs thing. Don't blame them, I would not give them a hard time about it. Tom Visit my web page for many games for sale/trade and screen shots of Ultima Escape from Mt. Drash, Tom's Ultima, Infocom and RPG page
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
I was like... what? Never gotten anything like that before in 4 years of trading. Was not sure how to reply but after a while I started writing. Both professionally and pretty personal as well, and since he was so paranoid I just felt I had to annoy him.. just a little. So I included this in my mail: Wow, that's pretty funny. Guy sounds both like an idoit and paranoid as hell. Yeah, you guys are gonna get cuffed and stuffed for a 20 year old computer game.. maybe... LOL I'm sorry you are stuck dealing with that freak. I've had my share of tools on ebay - this one guy recently; said he accepted paypal in his auction, then said I couldn't pay by paypal when it ended. Long story short - I got the item before i mailed the check - then mailed the checked, and when he got it he then left me (after i left positive) nuetral feedback because i didnt pay in a timely manor; even though the false claim to accept paypal in his auction was his fault!! Doh.. Brad - Original Message - From: Stefan Lindblom To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:27 AM Subject: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion Hey gang, I won an auction the other day on Ebay, and last night I sent a mail to the seller of the item. In the mail I gave him my address and and also left him instructions on how to package the game, which means... no receipt, declare it as a gift etc... customs still have a way of overdoing it over here, and paying tax for items they consider new even though they are 15-20 years old is not my idea of fun and well spent money. Anyway, here is the first mail I got: Hello Stefan,First, thanks for bidding our auction. Second, we understand that you are trying to avoid the VAT and we symphathize with you. Should there really be much VAT, if any, on this. Also, since you are asking us to help you "dodge the law" so to speak, will you be willing to break the law for us? Say...go rob the neighborhood jewelry store for us. We realize you do not know us but hey, what the heck, one good turn deserves another.We can face serious legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc) for violating our international laws. All of our incoming and outgoing email messages are routed and filtered through legal authorities now, due to terrorism activities, so the chances of being caught are very very high.We are here for fun and a little profit and really do no wish to become entangled with legal problems, so we will do everything "above board" and legal. Besides, is it really worth smearing you character over paltry sums. If you are going to do it, make sure it involves millions. Would we not look stupid being dragged in handcuffs in public because we tried to evade customs , etc, for maybe nothing or pennies.Still want to deal? We, now, will only accept cold hard cash from you for your purchase. Since you have indicated that you want to thwart the law, maybe you are willing to thwart payment to us also. Some people like to pay and after receiving their item, cancel the payment. Who wins?Regards,national-server I was like... what? Never gotten anything like that before in 4 years of trading. Was not sure how to reply but after a while I started writing. Both professionally and pretty personal as well, and since he was so paranoid I just felt I had to annoy him.. just a little. So I included this in my mail: "So you mean that all your e-mails are possibly being read by others? So if I in this mail add words like muslim, Bush, bomb, terror.. the chance of having it read will be greater?" Part of his reply included: "The authorities tap the internet backbone whenever they wish for "national security" purposes and do not necessarily use just "keywords". Your messaging (and now mine) most likely will be flagged for watching because you did use keywords which causes automatic backbone routing to federal and international authorities. Tensions run high here now and just "joking" around is not immune to utmost surveillance. You see, we are not a free people anymore in the sense that we were. National security and "Homeland Defense" are and have been the nation's #1 priority ever since 9/11.Of course, we won't be paranoid because we have nothing to hide and wish to continue on with our day to day business transactions." As if I didnt know they would be flagged, that was why I wrote it, pure annoyance factor ;) And no, he is not the least paranoid.. sure.. Just thought I should share this with you. Has any of you guys had any trouble with people reacting hostile when you want them to ship it discrete in order to try to avoid unnecessary involvement by the customs? Guy has zero feedback btw, although he claims to have another user as well. /Stefan
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
On Jan 14, 2004, at 9:27 AM, Stefan Lindblom wrote: [Snip] As if I didnt know they would be flagged, that was why I wrote it, pure annoyance factor ;) And no, he is not the least paranoid.. sure.. I imagine this guy wears a tinfoil hat. He's a bit overzealous about email monitoring. All in all, I would say that whiny people have increased on eBay in the last year or so. It is something you just have to deal with. I would suggest remembering that all your emails to this guy could end up in eBay's hands in case of a dispute. I would be careful in what you wrote. [Snip] Just thought I should share this with you. Has any of you guys had any trouble with people reacting hostile when you want them to ship it discrete in order to try to avoid unnecessary involvement by the customs? Guy has zero feedback btw, although he claims to have another user as well. I'll do it if people ask, but if it goes wrong it is their worry. I've also found that it is pretty useless to try to dodge customs unless you go to more effort (such as putting in a birthday card or a letter). I know Canadian customs generally seems to take a dim view of items marked as gifts. I guess too much stuff was coming in from the US marked as gift. In sure other countries are starting to notice this as well. Given the voracious tax appetite governments have I figure that in a few years even gifts will get hit with the additional fees. :-/ I've also been informed by my local post office that the USPS is now starting to open packages sent via media rate. Too many eBayers were trying to get around postal costs by falsifying the package to get a cheap rate. -- Edward Franks -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
We have a similar issue here in Canada as anything that comes in with a value of more than CAN $20 (or CAN $60 if it's declared as a gift) is taxed at 15%. I've actually had items shipped to me where the seller had declared a higher value than the eBay auction value, thinking it made no difference. So now I always indicate in my e-mails that it's important that the declared value not be higher than the final auction value. If the seller chooses to put a lower value on it, then great, but as long as it's no higher than the actual auction value, I can't really complain about it. If it's a traded item, then I will ask for a low value since no money has changed hands. Otherwise, I can kind of understand that it doesn't look good on you to ask the seller to be dishonest. Still, the guy does sound somewhat over the top. Stefan Lindblom wrote: Hey gang, I won an auction the other day on Ebay, and last night I sent a mail to the seller of the item. In the mail I gave him my address and and also left him instructions on how to package the game, which means... no receipt, declare it as a gift etc... customs still have a way of overdoing it over here, and paying tax for items they consider new even though they are 15-20 years old is not my idea of fun and well spent money. Anyway, here is the first mail I got: Hello Stefan, First, thanks for bidding our auction. Second, we understand that you are trying to avoid the VAT and we symphathize with you. Should there really be much VAT, if any, on this. Also, since you are asking us to help you "dodge the law" so to speak, will you be willing to break the law for us? Say...go rob the neighborhood jewelry store for us. We realize you do not know us but hey, what the heck, one good turn deserves another. We can face serious legal consequences (imprisonment, fines, etc) for violating our international laws. All of our incoming and outgoing email messages are routed and filtered through legal authorities now, due to terrorism activities, so the chances of being caught are very very high. We are here for fun and a little profit and really do no wish to become entangled with legal problems, so we will do everything "above board" and legal. Besides, is it really worth smearing you character over paltry sums. If you are going to do it, make sure it involves millions. Would we not look stupid being dragged in handcuffs in public because we tried to evade customs , etc, for maybe nothing or pennies. Still want to deal? We, now, will only accept cold hard cash from you for your purchase. Since you have indicated that you want to thwart the law, maybe you are willing to thwart payment to us also. Some people like to pay and after receiving their item, cancel the payment. Who wins? Regards, national-server I was like... what? Never gotten anything like that before in 4 years of trading. Was not sure how to reply but after a while I started writing. Both professionally and pretty personal as well, and since he was so paranoid I just felt I had to annoy him.. just a little. So I included this in my mail: "So you mean that all your e-mails are possibly being read by others? So if I in this mail add words like muslim, Bush, bomb, terror.. the chance of having it read will be greater?" Part of his reply included: "The authorities tap the internet backbone whenever they wish for "national security" purposes and do not necessarily use just "keywords". Your messaging (and now mine) most likely will be flagged for watching because you did use keywords which causes automatic backbone routing to federal and international authorities. Tensions run high here now and just "joking" around is not immune to utmost surveillance. You see, we are not a free people anymore in the sense that we were. National security and "Homeland Defense" are and have been the nation's #1 priority ever since 9/11. Of course, we won't be paranoid because we have nothing to hide and wish to continue on with our day to day business transactions." As if I didnt know they would be flagged, that was why I wrote it, pure annoyance factor ;) And no, he is not the least paranoid.. sure.. Just thought I should share this with you. Has any of you guys had any trouble with people reacting hostile when you want them to ship it discrete in order to try to avoid unnecessary involvement by the customs? Guy has zero feedback btw, although he claims to have another user as well. /Stefan
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Stephane Racle wrote: We have a similar issue here in Canada as anything that comes in with a value of more than CAN $20 (or CAN $60 if it's declared as a gift) is taxed at 15%. I've actually had items shipped to me where the seller had Don't forget the $5 'processing fee'. On a $20 item, this can be painful. declared a higher value than the eBay auction value, thinking it made no difference. So now I always indicate in my e-mails that it's important that the declared value not be higher than the final auction value. If the seller chooses to put a lower value on it, then great, but as long as it's no higher than the actual auction value, I can't really complain about it. If it's a traded item, then I will ask for a low value since no money has changed hands. Otherwise, I can kind of understand that it doesn't look good on you to ask the seller to be dishonest. Still, the guy does sound somewhat over the top. Personally, I like to think the gov't are the criminals here ;) I mean sheesh, trying to collect sales tax on used items, thats like taxing things I buy at a garage sale! (Which by the way, you are supposed to, but they have no way to enforce it of course). I always ask on items over $10 US for them to put value $10 or less if they can, but no one's ever freaked out on me. Some have occasionally refused, especially if its a business. As long as there's no sales receipt inside, I don't see the big deal though, no one can prove anything, and customs has better things to do, like stopping terrorists ;p -- Howard Feldman Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game Visit its homepage at: http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Hi everybody! I'm also new to the list, but have been watching the discussions for a while. Guess I had nothing worth writing before this. Funny Peo mentioned the taxes being absurd, because it's something I know quite well, since I'm a computer game collector in Brazil. I have to pay a whopping 60% tax over the total value of the item (which usually includes about 20 dollars in SH). And that doesn't even count the 2.8 currency conversion rate we currently have. Of course, not all packages are held by the custom, but I've had a bit of bad luck lately. I've found the hardest thing to do is to convince a customs officer that an older shrinkwraped game is not a new game :) I don't ask sellers to declare lower values, unless they offer first (and it doesn't happen very often. The one time I remember it happening was when I bought a package from C.E. a while ago). But as a seller I always ask which value they want me to state, because I believe it's the polite thing to do when trading older games. I know some games are worth 200+ in the collector market, but physical value, to me, is something else. In my opinion the seller's reaction was absurd, and comparing it to jewelry robbery is way out of line (after all, you're not robbing anyone possesions). Like I said, the final auction price refers to it's value as a collectible, and should not be taxed as a new item. For instance, 20 year-old cars don't pay customs tax in Brazil, because they're considered collectible, why would 20 year-old game have to pay taxes like new games, when they become collectible material at least twice as fast? I guess I'm taking a stand on this one because I've suffered my share with customs (and Peo, at least Swedish government actually does something with the taxes they collect - I still have to pay for school, hospital bills, trash collectors, etc. :) Anyway, I hope I can add something to the list once in a while. I'm not the most prized collector out there (actually, I'm more of a fan of most of you guys, Hugh, CE, Jim - love Moby :) but I'm getting there. Finally, if anyone ever needs something from Brazil (gaming or otherwise) or hints when dropping by, don't hesitate to ask. Best regards, Tomas Buteler --- Per-Olof Karlsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget the $5 'processing fee'. On a $20 item, this can be painful. Heh, that's cheap.. If something gets caught in our customs, the first thing they do is slap a handling fee of almost $9 to the sum. Then they take the declared value _including_ the shipping cost + the $9 fee and add no less than 28.5% to the whole shebang (25% VAT and 3.5% customs fee). It doesn't end there either. To actually receive the package you have to pay the entire fee at the post office, and they will charge you $5 just for the hell of it. Can you imagine, if you pay bills or whatever at the post office in Sweden, you have to pay a fee of $5 _for each payment you make_! If that isn't absurd, we need a new definition of the word. - Peo -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Tomas Buteler stated: I don't ask sellers to declare lower values, unless they offer first). [snip] But as a seller I always ask which value they want me to state, because I believe it's the polite thing to do when trading older games. Well, I *would* draw a distinction between *trading* games and *buying* them. I dislike the thought of being taxed for non-cash transactions. Anyway, I hope I can add something to the list once in a while. I'm not the most prized collector out there (actually, I'm more of a fan of most of you guys, Hugh, CE, Jim - love Moby :) but I'm getting there. I'd say that probably describes me as well. (BTW, welcome aboard, Tomas.) Finally, if anyone ever needs something from Brazil (gaming or otherwise) or hints when dropping by, don't hesitate to ask. H, might be interesting to have some Atari 2600 games from Brazil if you knew where to find them, but I can't afford it right now anyway. -- Lee K. Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Tomas Buteler wrote: Anyway, I hope I can add something to the list once in You already have -- welcome to the list! a while. I'm not the most prized collector out there (actually, I'm more of a fan of most of you guys, Hugh, CE, Jim - love Moby :) but I'm getting there. I'm flattered. :) But remember, we all started somewhere. In 10 years, you could be getting your own fan mail ;-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Paranoid seller and tax evasion
Lee K. Seitz schrieb: Marco Thorek stated: Lee K. Seitz schrieb: Well, I *would* draw a distinction between *trading* games and *buying* them. I dislike the thought of being taxed for non-cash transactions. I tried to argue the same to a customs officer. His reasoning was that I paid by sending my game. Can you argue with that? No. I didn't say my argument was logical or that any government official (regardless of which government we're talking about) would agree with me. It's just how I feel about it. Actually I meant it rhetorical and ironical, Lee, as in you can't argue with the logic of a government representative. The blessings of a text-based medium ;-) Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
