Re: [swift-users] Importing C system libraries

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

Is it just me, or is Swift moving to much in a command line direction since the 
open sourcing? I feel being left behind as an Xcode user...

Jan

> On 27 Mar 2017, at 22:59, Michael Ilseman via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sure. At a low level, you can create a module.map file and use -L/-l flags in 
> your invocation of Swift. If you want to do so at a higher level, then 
> perhaps SwiftPM can. CCing swift-build-dev for the SwiftPM part.
> 
> 
>> On Mar 26, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Kelvin Ma via swift-users 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Idk if this has been asked before, but is there a way to import C libraries 
>> into a Swift project without creating a local git repo? Preferably something 
>> similar to C where you can just `#include` headers and then specify the link 
>> flags (in Package.swift?) 
>> 
>> It’s getting very cumbersome to make a bunch of empty git repos just to use 
>> libglfw or libcairo.
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Re: [swift-users] Improving compilation times?

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

I may be old - But what is abnormal at 10mins compilation time? Looks perfectly 
fine to me - I still remember hours of compilation…

Jan

> On 22 Mar 2017, at 21:03, piotr gorzelany via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I hope I reached the right mailing list to ask a question about tooling.
> 
> Can somebody from the compiler or Xcode team share some tips on how to 
> improve compilation times of larger Swift projects?
> 
> I am an iOS developer and the largest issue my team has with Swift so far is 
> that when the project gets semi large (~30 000 lines) the compilation times 
> start to be high (~10 minutes from clean). This is a MAJOR downside since iOS 
> development oftentimes requires rapid changes to UI or logic. Every person of 
> my team compiles a project at least 10 times a day to test new features or 
> functionalities. When compilation times start to be higher than 10 minutes 
> that gets us to ~1.5h a day of developer time spend just on compiling. Not to 
> mention the focus lost when this is happening.
> 
> I know the Swift Evolution list is buzzing with new ideas and features but 
> from my experience the compilation times is a CRITICAL thing to improve in 
> the next Swift release since it cost real money to waste all those developer 
> hours. Just think of all the hours lost on compiling across all Swift devs 
> worldwide and you will get to probably dozens of thousand of dev hours a day.
> 
> Is the core compiler team going to address compilation performance in the 
> next release?
> 
> Maybe there is an existing solution to long compilation times that we don't 
> know of? It would be great if anybody could share.
> I was thinking maybe of dividing the app into multiple frameworks since I 
> think frameworks are compiled only once only on change?
> 
> Regards,
> Piotr
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

This looks way better then Discourse. +1 from me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Jan Neumüller
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> On 17 Feb 2017, at 21:45, Jose Cheyo Jimenez via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ted, 
> 
> Today I learned about https://esdiscuss.org/  which 
> is like an archiver viewer for disc...@mozilla.org 
>  pipermail mailing list 
> 
> All their code is at  https://github.com/esdiscuss 
> 
> 
> This still preserves pipermail as the one source of truth but it allows 
> better searching and visibility.
> 
> There is even a reply button which opens up a mail client presumably the 
> correct headers. 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 5:18 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek > wrote:
 
 
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
> > wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
>> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
>> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a 
>> decision was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
> been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users 
> into that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more 
> people felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am 
> seeing in reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new 
> signal.
 
 Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and 
 will be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because 
 that was evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the 
 range of opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something 
 important that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We 
 want to do the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum 
 software is the right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows 
 people to still participate effectively via email.
>>> 
>>> Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email 
>>> experience of using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I 
>>> agree that this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what 
>>> the email experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week 
>>> or so.
>> 
>> I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate 
>> Cook created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on 
>> swift-evolution was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of 
>> that experiment (such as how rich text email interacted with doing inline 
>> replies).  Moving to Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we 
>> decide Discourse is not a fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question 
>> to me is how do we do a meaningful trial without actually doing the real 
>> discussions in the forum (while the mailing lists are still running).
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from 
the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty 
way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to 
live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more 
influential in the community.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, mshea...@me.com wrote:
> 
> I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
> of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have 
> seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to 
> use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in 
> hybrid mode, go for it.
> 
> Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
> comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also 
> improves the appeal of the language to others.
> 
> Unless, of course, I am missing something here.
> 
> On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
> <swift-users@swift.org>, wrote:
>> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world 
>> does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz <cihatguend...@posteo.de 
>>> <mailto:cihatguend...@posteo.de>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
>>> derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
>>> those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
>>> you to reflect your language:
>>> 
>>> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
>>> hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
>>> <http://airmail.calendar/2017-02-09%2012:00:00%20MEZ>’s standards are a bag 
>>> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, 
>>> add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
>>> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …
>> 
>> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
>> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
>> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
>> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
>> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
>> programming.
>> 
>> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
>> How is that an attack?
>> 
>> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
>> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
>> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am 
>> to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>> 
>> 
>>> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>>> <https://swift.org/community/#code-of-conduct> of the Swift Community. 
>>> Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally 
>>> instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t 
>>> like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But 
>>> please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in 
>>> detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the 
>>> wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are 
>>> not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from 
>>> that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no 
>>> more, no less.
>> 
>> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
>> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
>> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
>> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
>> actions - who wouldn’t?
>> 
>> 
>>> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
>>> it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
>>> the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
>>> service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
>>> groups.io <http://groups.io/>, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source 
>>> solution. What it also m

Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does 
move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
> 
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
> to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things 
> you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect 
> your language:
> 
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
> ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
> ’s standards are a bag 
> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add 
> lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took most 
languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around 
it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How 
is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are 
a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to 
direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.


> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>  of the Swift Community. Let’s 
> try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of 
> personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or 
> that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware 
> that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we 
> understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. 
> Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of 
> constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of 
> thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
actions - who wouldn’t?


> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
> open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the 
> data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service 
> which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io 
> , GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. 
> What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for 
> (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it 
> ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open 
> source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. 
As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we 
should not forget - fitting licenses.

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.


> On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
> modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
> language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 
> 
> 
I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
(way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
> I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks 
> are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org 
> , than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web 
> where every Swiftier feels right at home. 
> 
> 
I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one 
could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
> does not contribute to anything at all.
> 
> As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
> font from swift.org  if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d 
> make it a little bit more alike.
> 
> 
You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming 
push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

My problem with Discourse lies in its terrible ui. It  is like most modern 
social media: totally useless to find stuff and stay organized in it. It 
reminds my heavy on the terrible ui of Facebook and the redone developer forums 
at Apple that have gone from fine to utterly useless chaos. Perhaps I’m to old 
for modern web, but what are other finding great at this?

I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
good mailing list support, too.

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Re: [swift-users] Swift 3.0 Preview 1 Linux release and Foundation

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

> On 14.06.2016, at 11:46, Marcin Krzyzanowski via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for a great job on Swift 3 preview 1 release.
> Today I noticed that Linux release and macOS release is quite different.
> I thought that Linux and macOS release will have Foundation in it, but
> Linux seems missing this part.
> Maybe I'm missing something but structures like "Data" (NSData
> equivalent)) are missing on Linux (Ubuntu 14).
> 
> I'm very interested in cross-platform code compatibility, and I had
> this assumption that we can rely on stdlib and Foundation in Swift 3
> releases.
> 
> Swift 3.0 Release Process document
> https://swift.org/blog/swift-3-0-release-process/ mention that "For
> Linux, Swift 3 will also be the first release to contain the Swift
> Core Libraries."
> 
> What I'm missing?
> 

It’s easy - This release isn’t finished. It’s not even beta, it is only a 
developer preview. I guess the completeness will get better with all following 
previews.

cu, Jan
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Re: [swift-users] Serious Issue with Project Preprocessor Build Setting, Xcode 7.3 and Swift.

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

What macros? Swift doesn’t have macros - thanks the lord...

Jan Neumüller
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> On 23.03.2016, at 17:43, James Campbell via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> We are experiencing an issue when compiling swift code under Xcode 7.3.
> 
> Preprocessor macros specified in the Xcode Project aren't imported into 
> swift. Ones manually declared in code are imported fine.
> 
> Specifying Xcode 7.3 to use the Xcode 7.2 toolchain (Swift 2.1 etc) has no 
> effect on this.
> 
> This is preventing us from using Xcode 7.3 and being able to test for 9.3. 
> Anybody else getting this issue?
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