From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek zbys...@in.waw.pl
That mostly applies to people who actually don't use systemd and are
commenting from the peanut gallery. Actual *users* when they are unhappy
are unhappy about bugs.
That is not entirely true. I'm a user (because systemd is in Fedora
19),
On 28/10/14 16:28, Dale R. Worley wrote:
From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek zbys...@in.waw.pl
That mostly applies to people who actually don't use systemd and are
commenting from the peanut gallery. Actual *users* when they are unhappy
are unhappy about bugs.
That is not entirely true. I'm
On Tue, 28.10.14 11:28, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek zbys...@in.waw.pl
That mostly applies to people who actually don't use systemd and are
commenting from the peanut gallery. Actual *users* when they are unhappy
are unhappy about bugs.
On Oct 28, 2014 5:05 PM, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
wrote:
On Tue, 28.10.14 11:28, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
That is not entirely true. I'm a user (because systemd is in Fedora
19), and I've complained that if I mark an /etc/fstab entry as
nofail, some part
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 05:16:38PM +0100, Jan Alexander Steffens wrote:
On Oct 28, 2014 5:05 PM, Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
wrote:
On Tue, 28.10.14 11:28, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
That is not entirely true. I'm a user (because systemd is in Fedora
19),
El mar, 28-10-2014 a las 17:05 +0100, Lennart Poettering escribió:
[...]
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-October/024325.html
Looks interesting. Have you think in having some kind of wiki or page
listing this kind of tricks to solve things like that. That way we
prevent
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
Please, let's discuss this elsewhere. Let's keep a strict technical
focus on this ML!
I believe that you mean that outsiders are welcome here to provide
assistance to systemd as it has already been implemented. One
difficulty is that outsiders
On Mon, 27.10.14 18:25, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
Please, let's discuss this elsewhere. Let's keep a strict technical
focus on this ML!
I believe that you mean that outsiders are welcome here to provide
assistance to
On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 06:25:56PM -0400, Dale R. Worley wrote:
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
Please, let's discuss this elsewhere. Let's keep a strict technical
focus on this ML!
I believe that you mean that outsiders are welcome here to provide
assistance to
On Tue, 21.10.14 11:25, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
The scopes and slices concept does not exist elsewhere, and
there's nothing comparable around, so even if we wanted we couldn't
make logind work on anything else.
Then why in the first hand are the scopes and slices
On Wed, 22.10.14 15:54, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
We are always interested in technical feedback.
We are not very interested in FUD mails that tell us how we'd force
people, how we'd behave like microsoft and so on.
… why systemd provokes this amount of
polarity and resistance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 05:00:04PM +, dennis.mur...@wipro.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, on the project website there is
NO mailing list for advocacy. The comment this is for technical email only
use
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 05:00:04PM +, dennis.mur...@wipro.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, on the project website there is NO
mailing list for advocacy. The comment this is for technical email only use
a
different ML is for all purposes just a brush off. If the project
Am 23.10.2014 um 19:14 schrieb Tomasz Torcz:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 05:00:04PM +, dennis.mur...@wipro.com wrote:
One thing I would like to point out, on the project website there is NO
mailing list for advocacy. The comment this is for technical email only use a
different ML is for all
Hi Martin,
If you were to phrase your complaints/questions in terms of technical
issues, we could probably have a much more useful debate. What is
clear is that the systemd project will not do or change anything
merely based on some bystanders gut feeling (which is basically what
you have argued
Hello Martin,
Firstly, I apologise if you took what I said as a personal insult. It
was not my intention to do so (and I did try to make that explicitly
clear in a footnote).
I will certainly admit that some of my wording was more directed than I
had intended. This is something I would normally
- Original Message -
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
We are always interested in technical feedback.
I have seen this comment several times from the systemd devs, and I don't doubt
it. But I think much of the criticism of systemd is not technical. It has a
more
On Wed, 22.10.14 12:11, Rob Owens (row...@ptd.net) wrote:
We are always interested in technical feedback.
I have seen this comment several times from the systemd devs, and I
don't doubt it. But I think much of the criticism of systemd is not
technical. It has a more social/political
- Original Message -
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
On Wed, 22.10.14 12:11, Rob Owens (row...@ptd.net) wrote:
We are always interested in technical feedback.
I have seen this comment several times from the systemd devs, and I
don't doubt it. But I think
From: Lennart Poettering lenn...@poettering.net
We are always interested in technical feedback.
We are not very interested in FUD mails that tell us how we'd force
people, how we'd behave like microsoft and so on. That's not useful,
that's pretty much only hurtful.
I haven't read this
El 22/10/14 a las #4, Rob Owens escribió:
It is your ML, so I will oblige. But I think it is a mistake to not consider
a broader view of your project than just the strictly technical aspects.
It is not *his* mailing list..but it is the place where *technical*
discussions about the systemd
Am Sonntag, 21. September 2014, 15:31:15 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
Hello!
I know this is a daring post.
I just have one question. In the light of
http://boycottsystemd.org/
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
developing some systemd compatible services for BSD:
Hi Rob,
Am Montag, 6. Oktober 2014, 14:56:22 schrieb Rob Owens:
- Original Message -
From: Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de
Heck, I started a thread here and then didn´t manage to take time to
carefully
read it and reply here and there as I see fit. But I challenged
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Am Montag, 6. Oktober 2014, 21:53:04 schrieb Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek:
Systemd-shim provides some functionality that systemd-sysv provides,
and allows admins to use init systems other than systemd while still
Am Dienstag, 7. Oktober 2014, 23:40:45 schrieb Uoti Urpala:
On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 14:15 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
My question really isn't why are the Debian dependencies the way they
are. I understand that. I was trying to highlight the strange
situation of a desktop application requiring
On Tue, 21.10.14 10:53, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
So, aside from it being additional work, is there any *solid* or even
*unavoidable* technical reason to couple functionality that tightly?
Yes, there always is. For logind for example we need to be able to
group the
Am Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014, 10:54:00 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
On Tue, 07.10.14 23:40, Uoti Urpala (uoti.urp...@pp1.inet.fi) wrote:
On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 14:15 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
My question really isn't why are the Debian dependencies the way they
are. I understand that. I was
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Then systemd may use it as PID 1, but if someother wants to use it in own
project, can use it as well. I consider cgroups as part of the kernel API and
I highly dislike the battle on which of the available solutions
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:07:01 schrieben Sie:
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Am Montag, 6. Oktober 2014, 21:53:04 schrieb Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek:
Systemd-shim provides some functionality that systemd-sysv provides,
and
On Tue, 21.10.14 11:08, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
systemd as init, but logind has to depend on the system having cgroup
support, and there's no equally good cgroup support available for inits
other than systemd. It is possible to provide the relevant cgroup
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:26:16 schrieben Sie:
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:08 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Then systemd may use it as PID 1, but if someother wants to use it in own
project, can use it as well. I consider cgroups as part of the kernel API
and I
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:07:01 schrieben Sie:
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Martin Steigerwald
mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
Am Montag, 6. Oktober 2014, 21:53:04 schrieb Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek:
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:21:36 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
On Tue, 21.10.14 10:53, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
So, aside from it being additional work, is there any *solid* or even
*unavoidable* technical reason to couple functionality that tightly?
Yes, there
On Tue, 21.10.14 11:47, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
So or so… I think its this kind of attitude that triggers most of the
polarity and split.
Well, our priority is to solve technical problems in a way we perceive
elegant and minimal. Your priority appears to be
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:52:50 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
When Microsoft back then did something like this it was called Embrace,
Extend and Extinguish¹…
Oh come on. You are just being a dick now.
For now just this:
Thats a personal accusation.
I didn´t attack you personally.
Am Dienstag, 21. Oktober 2014, 11:59:09 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
On Tue, 21.10.14 11:47, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
So or so… I think its this kind of attitude that triggers most of the
polarity and split.
Well, our priority is to solve technical problems in
Martin Steigerwald wrote on 21/10/14 10:25:
Am Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014, 10:54:00 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
On Tue, 07.10.14 23:40, Uoti Urpala (uoti.urp...@pp1.inet.fi) wrote:
On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 14:15 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
My question really isn't why are the Debian dependencies the
Colin,
I had the feeling that is a bad idea to read your mail before I go to sleep.
But I was interested in what you have to say since you made quite an effort in
your reply to me. And now I can´t sleep since my head if full of thoughts and
I am full of emotions as well.
With that I perceive
On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 02:13 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
With that I perceive starts an answer on a technical matter ends with what I
received as a dire personal attack: I.e. calling me names.
I think it was a mostly justified criticism of your posting style here.
I will make an effort
Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] I wonder… why systemd provokes this amount of
polarity and resistance
Colin,
I had the feeling that is a bad idea to read your mail before I go to sleep.
But I was interested in what you have to say since you made quite an effort in
your reply to me. And now I can´t
On Tue, 07.10.14 23:40, Uoti Urpala (uoti.urp...@pp1.inet.fi) wrote:
On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 14:15 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
My question really isn't why are the Debian dependencies the way they
are. I understand that. I was trying to highlight the strange situation
of a desktop
- Original Message -
From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek zbys...@in.waw.pl
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:56:22PM -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
On Debian, I came across an unusual dependency. Installing a cd burner
(brasero) required me to change my init system to systemd. Sounds kind of
On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 14:15 -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
My question really isn't why are the Debian dependencies the way they are.
I understand that. I was trying to highlight the strange situation of a
desktop application requiring a particular init system. I *think* this is a
result of the
On Sun, 05.10.14 12:20, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
However, I also believe that the change we are making is for the good,
and even though it might not be obvious to many immediately, it brings
major benefits when administering machines, and they massively
outweigh the
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:57:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
systemd does a lot. And an 1,3 MiB binary is a hug binary size for
something
that started out as managing services and sessions via control
cgroups.
Well, it does a lot more these days.
The Linux kernel also
On Mon, 06.10.14 16:34, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbys...@in.waw.pl) wrote:
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:57:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
systemd does a lot. And an 1,3 MiB binary is a hug binary size for
something
that started out as managing services and sessions via
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 05:14:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
On Mon, 06.10.14 16:34, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek (zbys...@in.waw.pl) wrote:
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:57:17PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
systemd does a lot. And an 1,3 MiB binary is a hug binary size for
- Original Message -
From: Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de
Heck, I started a thread here and then didn´t manage to take time to
carefully
read it and reply here and there as I see fit. But I challenged people on
debian-user mailing list to constructively voice their concerns
Hello Rob,
this is higly Debian specific (doesn't even apply to Ubuntu) and thus
a bit off-topic, but as the question already is on the upstream ML..
sorry!
Rob Owens [2014-10-06 14:56 -0400]:
brasero - gvfs - gvfs-daemons - udisks2 - libpam-systemd - systemd-sysv
You can break it up after
On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:56:22PM -0400, Rob Owens wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de
Heck, I started a thread here and then didn´t manage to take time to
carefully
read it and reply here and there as I see fit. But I challenged people on
Hi Lennart,
Am Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014, 23:33:43 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
On Sun, 21.09.14 15:31, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
I just have one question. In the light of
[...]
Heck, I started a thread here and then didn´t manage to take time to carefully
read it and
Am Sonntag, 5. Oktober 2014, 12:20:01 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
Well… I may post much more in this thread.
not post much more
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
___
Am Mittwoch, 1. Oktober 2014, 23:33:43 schrieb Lennart Poettering:
(What I didn't expect though is how awful the Linux community can
actually be. That people collect Bitcoins to hire a hitman on me, that
people start petitions to make me stop working, and all that other
really hateful,
Hi Jóhann,
Am Sonntag, 21. September 2014, 22:15:32 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/21/2014 01:31 PM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
in the light of the ongoing discussions on linux-kernel
Could you provide a link to that ongoing discussion that is taking place
in the kernel community
On Sun, 21.09.14 15:31, Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de) wrote:
I just have one question. In the light of
[...]
in the light of the ongoing discussions on linux-kernel, debian-devel, debian-
user and other mailing lists more than some dozens threads meanwhile:
Did you ever ask
On Mon, 22.09.14 10:16, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
1. Systemd has some very large binaries, each of which implements many
aspects of the system. Conversely, the typical Un*x approach is to
separate functions into many executablels, many of which are scripts.
The latter
On Tue, 23.09.14 15:13, Dale R. Worley (wor...@alum.mit.edu) wrote:
Again, this seems rather ignorant of the status quo. Between the blog
posts and wiki documentation and the 164 man pages, systemd is rather
copiously documented. Not to say that things can't be improved, but
by Linux
Let me offer this as a suggestion of what might be the root of some
issues:
One of the lessons in Fred Brooks' The Mythical Man-Month is that it
takes three times more effort to produce a *program product* as it
does to produce the *program*. That is, 2/3 of the effort is not to
make the
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 10:16:36AM -0400, Dale R. Worley wrote:
From: Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
Did you ever ask yourself why your project provokes that amount of
resistance and polarity? Did you ever ask yourself whether this
really is just resistance against anything new from people who
From: Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek zbys...@in.waw.pl
More seriously, the idea of having shell scripts which you're going
to modify to customize your setup is simply crazy. How robust would
your changes be? How would you ever handle upgrades? How would more
than one admin manage a machine
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
OK, I'd like to modify systemd's handling of mounts. I've been told
only that the units that are created from /etc/fstab are created and
handled by the main systemd binary. What documentation do I look at
that
Am 22.09.2014 um 01:48 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
The reason for increased log entries in the journal is that more things
are happening now since this is what happening when a job is run.
that don't change the fact that a user not acting as
systemd-developer and not debugging his system
On 09/22/2014 11:40 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:28 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 09:23 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 01:48 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
The reason for increased log entries in the journal is that more things
are happening now
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:45 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 11:40 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:28 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 09:23 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 01:48 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
The reason for increased log entries in
On 09/22/2014 12:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:45 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 11:40 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:28 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 09:23 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 01:48 schrieb Jóhann B.
Am 22.09.2014 um 14:44 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Then file a bug report against rsyslog and provide a patch which fixes
the default log filtering in Fedora to your expectation but leave
systemd out of it.
wow - in any other case the systemd developers saying that
they don't
Hi,
On 22/09/14 15:58, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 14:44 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Then file a bug report against rsyslog and provide a patch which fixes
the default log filtering in Fedora to your expectation but leave
systemd out of it.
wow - in any other case the
On 09/22/2014 12:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
i suggest you get rid of that arrogance and some other developers
too because it's the reason for the subject and proves that you
*do not* care about users as long you have not the same opinion
you are the one demanding a friendly tone from me,
From: Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
Did you ever ask yourself why your project provokes that amount of
resistance and polarity? Did you ever ask yourself whether this
really is just resistance against anything new from people who
just do not like new or whether it contains*valuable*
On 22/09/14 10:23, Reindl Harald wrote:
honestly the messages about reaching target are nonsense without
a prefix pointing out that it is about a *user session* because it
looks like a bootlog every minute
You can tell this is not the system instance of systemd (init) because
its process ID
Am 22.09.2014 um 16:41 schrieb Simon McVittie:
On 22/09/14 10:23, Reindl Harald wrote:
honestly the messages about reaching target are nonsense without
a prefix pointing out that it is about a *user session* because it
looks like a bootlog every minute
You can tell this is not the system
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson
johan...@gmail.com wrote:
On 09/22/2014 12:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:45 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/22/2014 11:40 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 13:28 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On
On 22 September 2014 15:16, Dale R. Worley wor...@alum.mit.edu wrote:
2. Systemd includes a tremendous number of features and behaviors, but
a lot of them aren't documented very well. That's not so unusual in
Un*x, but if you're introducing something new, nobody has any prior
knowledge of
Hello!
I know this is a daring post.
I just have one question. In the light of
http://boycottsystemd.org/
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
developing some systemd compatible services for BSD:
http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20140915064856
in the light of
Debian Bug report logs -
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote:
I just have one question. In the light of
http://boycottsystemd.org/
Please note that this is just (to the best of my knowledge), the
misinformed rants of an anonymous individual (despite it appearing a
lot more
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 12:52 AM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de
wrote:
http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
Hm, missing content?
Apparently someone attacked and wiped their website.
It's mostly a trimmed-down systemd
2014-09-21 23:52 GMT+02:00 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de
wrote:
I had it that it didn´t mount an NFS export and while in the
end it was a syntax error in fstab that sysvinit happily ignored, I needed a
bug report and dev
On 09/21/2014 01:31 PM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
in the light of the ongoing discussions on linux-kernel
Could you provide a link to that ongoing discussion that is taking place
in the kernel community regarding systemd?
Did you ever ask yourself why your project provokes that amount of
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:15 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Now alot of the resistance and polarity that is taking place like in the url
you pointed at is hiding itself behind
their misinterpretation of the so called Unix philosophy and claiming that
we somehow fall short on the
guidelines
On 09/21/2014 10:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:15 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Now alot of the resistance and polarity that is taking place like in the url
you pointed at is hiding itself behind
their misinterpretation of the so called Unix philosophy and claiming that
we
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:48 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/21/2014 10:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:15 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Now alot of the resistance and polarity that is taking place like in the
url you pointed at is hiding itself
behind
their
On 09/21/2014 11:09 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:48 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
On 09/21/2014 10:23 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 22.09.2014 um 00:15 schrieb Jóhann B. Guðmundsson:
Now alot of the resistance and polarity that is taking place like in the url
you pointed at
On Sun, 2014-09-21 at 15:31 +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
Did you ever ask yourself why your project provokes that amount of resistance
and polarity? Did you ever ask yourself whether this really is just
resistance
against anything new from people who just do not like new or whether it
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