Re: t-and-f: Re: T&F athletes in winter Olympics?
"The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally distributed by population." Never once have I argued against this. I do believe that body type and physiology are key characteristics in athletic events and I also believe that they are not equally distributed by population. Never once have I argued against that. What I do argue against are certain key "statements" made by you such as "An American/European will never win a distance medal" or the recent "Flowers no fluke" in which you seemingly claim black athletes are on the rise and are about to dominate such activities as pushing a sled down a hill. The fact is Flowers is a fluke. I don't argue with your main points and your main argument that certain populations are blessed with certain characteristics that make them, as populations not individuals, better at certain sports...I FULLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS. What I find troublesome are your "come buy my book, listen to me" remarks such as the above two. To say "An American/European will never win a distance medal" is simply ignorant on your part because ANYTHING is possible. Just because the needed genetic characteristics are harder to find in the American/European world does not mean it would be impossible to find such a person win a distance gold. One could also say a white mane will never again win a 200m gold, but that's already been done recently hasn't it? In the end, we're both right, and we're both wrong, depending on which of your statements we are arguing...the "come buy my books, I'm a controvertial man" remarks, or your very well thought out main ideas, which I fully agree with. Alan >From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, t-and-f-digest ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Track and Field List ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: T&F athletes in winter Olympics? >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:05:03 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBE41361400CC40042A1080DF8E0DE8B50; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:19:01 -0800 >Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu (majordom@localhost [127.0.0.1])by >darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1NJ8rUT025658for ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:53 -0800 >(PST) >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu >(8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g1NJ8r4b025657for t-and-f-outgoing; Sat, 23 Feb >2002 11:08:53 -0800 (PST) >Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net >[207.217.120.22])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id >g1NJ8pUT025651;Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:51 -0800 (PST) >Received: from hsa118.pool012.at101.earthlink.net ([216.249.83.118] >helo=[10.0.1.7])by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1)id >16ehXJ-0004qB-00; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:08:46 -0800 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:20:26 -0800 >User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Precedence: bulk > >Alan: > >Unfortunately, Alan, your "analysis" is flawed and reflects as usual a >determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types >by population. > >For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority. >That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against. > >I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever >written >and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase "innate >superiority" once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by >environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use >such >phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced, >bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I >have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman' >argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that >disingenuous issue. > >And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not >important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either. >Again, another strawman argument. > >The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural >ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that >the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping >
Re: t-and-f: Re: T&F athletes in winter Olympics?
Alan: Unfortunately, Alan, your "analysis" is flawed and reflects as usual a determined myopic and unscientific view of basic physiology and body types by population. For the record, I did not mention in this article genetic superiority. That's an ignorant concept, one that I have always argued against. I did not raise such an issue in this or any other article I've ever written and never once used that phrase in Taboo (I used the phrase "innate superiority" once in a chapter heading introducing the 'strawman' claim by environmental dogmatists such as yourself tha). The only people who use such phrases are those like yourself who claim that some who embrace a nuanced, bio-cultural perspective, are genetic determinists. In fact, in Taboo, I have an entire chapter that discusses the environmentalists 'strawman' argument against 'innate superiority' YOU are the only one raising that disingenuous issue. And I did not write that social and environmental conditions are not important. There are not many Texans doing well in the ski jump either. Again, another strawman argument. The relative interwoven relationship between genetic factors and cultural ones will always be impossible to tease out. However, your assertion that the fact that athletes of West African ancestry do not dominate ski jumping somehow minimizes the findings that the distrubution curve of quick athletes of West African acnestry is longer and thicker than most other populations is just silly. For the record, I never argued the relative importance of genetics vs. cultural/environmental factors. They are obviously intertwined. For you to The only points that I am making, which in your fervor you refuse to consider, is that body type and physiology are key characteristics in certain athletic events and that those characteritistics are not equally distributed by population. That is science 101 (or actually junior high level science). I guess evolutionary biologists, anthropologists, geneticists, and sports scientists, such as Bengt Saltin do not have your sophisticated, nuanced view of such issues. It's clear you know little about bobsledding. The pusher/runner position is dominated by athletes who are the fastest and quickest. It is without question that people of West African ancestry are more likely, per capita, to have those characteristics than other population groups. So it is therefore not surprising that the runner position in bobsledding is fertile terriitory for athletes of West African ancestry. Now Kenya is trying to become involved in international bobsledding. They are no more likley succeed in that endeavor than they will succeed in becoming an international soccer power, come to domiminate sprinting, or turn out the next great long jumpers. It won't happen, any mor than Eskimos will come to dominate as NBA centers or a Watusi will become the next world heavyweight lifting champion. You are obviously disinclined to acknowledge even this very basic science of body type distribution patterns. That's your choice. Some people believe that the earth is flat. On 2/23/02 10:28 AM, "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oxymoron? > > "Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter > Sport Tradition" > "The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics..." > > How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp > are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed. > > XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road. > > Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on > the iceless track. > > Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. > Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, > chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way. > > I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black > athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the > above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is. > > > Alan > http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 > > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: T&F athletes in winter Olympics?
Oxymoron? "Flowers Is No Fluke: Black Success In Bobsledding Part Of A Growing Winter Sport Tradition" "The first ever gold medal victory by a black in the Winter Olympics..." How about ski jumping? Being very thin and having a strong push off the ramp are very important. Explosive muscles fibers are needed. XC skiing? Oops...we've already been down that road. Speed skating? Come on, black athletes should dominate just as they do on the iceless track. Also, East Asian athletes seem to dominate the short track speed skating. Why is this? Is it about genetics? Or about an organized system that picks, chooses, and trains these athletes. Where there is a will there is a way. I'm sorry Jon, but if genetic superiority was so superior then black athletes, no matter how few there are in the sports, should dominate the above events. Genetics is important, but not as much as you think it is. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
