Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Again, WHY THIS OBSESSION WITH nationality. It's absurd, especially in the light of the silly barbs thrown my way. But as for your latest barb, you are flat out wrong I did discuss this numerous times, and most recently in my post a while back about "why Brits" will are doing so lousy. The FACT is...and you can check the lists of top times and top runners..is that you and others have swallowed a MYTH that there were a lot of runners of "US, UK and Northern European stock" that were setting the world on fire years ago. There were a few great races by a handful of great runners such as Cram and Coe competing in a field in which most of the rest of the world did not compete, particularly runners from Africa, most of Asia, and South America. Now that the field is more level, the best talent comes to the top. Again, check the lists of top times and runners... Those so-called "great" times of years ago pale in comparison RELATIVE to the population numbers AND overall. In the 800 metres, for instance, 92 of the top 100 times are held by those of mostly African ancestry. Was Coe a great runner. Of course. And we will always have great runners. But he was no where near the consistent level of a Kipketer or Cruz. And as for why runners of "US, UK and Northern European stock" are not doing as well as years ago, there are probably a number of explanations for it. One of the most compelling is that runners of "US, UK and Northern European stock"now have to compete in a world that is not unfairly skewed to their benefit. The playing field is more level (although Africans still have far fewer opportunities...wait until the field gets even MORE level!!!). Few runners want to put in the grueling effort necessary to possibly achieve elite status when they more or less know that considering the current competition, they are likely to fall short of their goals. In other words, just as whites have left pro basketball in droves, blacks avoid weight lifting, and American, British and Canadian Blacks avoid distance running, whites are RATIONALLY turning away from distance running in droves to pursue other things (including sports) in which the effort they will have to expend is likely to be rewarded. That is a rational response by MOST "US, UK and Northern European stock" but certainly not all, since there is a lot of human variation. Moreover, the clear advantage of blacks of West African ancestry in the sprints is far more impressive than disparities in distance running. The body type/physiological advantages of certain populations in distance running is quite small, meaning there will likely always be competitive whites, Asians, etc. and even an occasional Coe and Cram. But don't hold your breath if you think that the "old days' will return. It just can't happen. On 8/13/01 4:12 PM, "Rich Harrington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jon, > > You have consistently failed to acknowledge why athletes from the US, UK and > and Northern European stock are running more slowly than they did in the > past. If they were running at the level of Cram, Coe, etc., perhaps they > would be more competitive. > > Rich Harrington > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jon Entine > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM > To: Track and Field List > Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > > Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this > unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I > will be most obliging. > > ** > > 9 August 2001 > > The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again > Hold a Distance Running Record > > By Jon Entine > > When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World > Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. > The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the > world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, > Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, > the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North > and East Africans. > > The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more > sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock > used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and > Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² > wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as > Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² > Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment > of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace > 20 years ago,² he added modestly. > > Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance > runners from Britain, northern Europe
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
My previous remarks stands and is correct. Same routine...Entine posts dribble, we respond, we respond some more, we get interested, we buy Entine's book, Entine's pockets get fatter. As Malmo said, same ol shite. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 >From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "'Jon Entine'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Track and Field List'" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:43:01 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBD3C32EF00514004379D80DF8E0D93E40; Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:43:46 -0700 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) >id f79JfjB14199for t-and-f-outgoing; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:41:45 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from clavin.bestweb.net (clavin.bestweb.net [209.94.100.144])by >darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f79Jff014189for ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:41:42 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from george (dialin-559-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.3.51])by >clavin.bestweb.net (Postfix) with ESMTPid 1C3F262D4D; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 >15:41:28 -0400 (EDT) >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:47:53 -0700 >Message-ID: <01c1210b$80cf2320$3303b3d8@george> >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462. >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu >id f79Jfi014193 >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Precedence: bulk > >I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's >bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. > >Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. > >malmo > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM > > To: Track and Field List > > Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > > > > > Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants > > to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a > > website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. > > > > ** > > > > 9 August 2001 > > > > The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) > > Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record > > > > By Jon Entine > > > > When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at > > Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as > > well signal the end of an era. The age of great British > > middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s > > dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve > > Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left > > competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere > > also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. > > > > The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually > > part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and > > others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance > > running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe > > now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² > > wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather > > fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our > > hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to > > train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the > > mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 > > years ago,² he added modestly. > > > > Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, > > because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or > > North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle > > as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with > > this changing phenomenon. > > > > The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 > > metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, > > eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, > > the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of > > social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans > > remain somewhat more competitive. > > > > If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this > > extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: > > th
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British ...
<<< Or is there some sort of East African/North African or whatever argument can be crowbarred into a set of statistics which clues us in that Coe and Ovett have genes originating in some other world? >>> They were from some other world alright.
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British ...
I'm wondering if the British genes are just not as good currently as they were in the Coe/Ovett era. Let's face it - if the British had produced another generation of Coe's and Ovett's including a natural progression of improvement they would be running right with the best the world has to offer right now. The British just went backwards like most countries that formerly were powers at the middle distances 20 years ago. Or is there some sort of East African/North African or whatever argument can be crowbarred into a set of statistics which clues us in that Coe and Ovett have genes originating in some other world? Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Is it really necessary to quote the original message in full length to every follow-up only to add an one-liner? I am receiving the t-and-f digest and it is irritating to wade through the same hundreds of lines over and over to spot the reply. Ralf Linnemann
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Dan, you live in Oregon. There aren't 50 black kids in the entire state! malmo > > Nah, you'll have to do better than that. There's no question > that there is somewhat of a reverse discrimination against > whites when it comes to sprinting, but I very much doubt > there are 10x as many black kids sprinting. From what I've > been associated with, and from watching things like local > state/district meets, I'd say it's at "worst" 50/50, with > probably a majority of white kids participating. (I've lived > in and attended both predominately black and white > neighborhoods/schools.) > > The perception that many more black kids participate is > probably due to what we see at the more elite levels, which > only serves to support Jon's point that you are so vehemently > disagreeing with. I love irony. > > Dan > > = > http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Tom D. wrote: > I think the meaningful part applies to the notion that British athletes > should train harder as Coe suggests in order to beat the Africans. If the > reason for training harder is solely to beat the Africans then the numbers > Entine quotes are meaningful, but if the reason for a Brit to train harder > is to beat the other Brits then the statistically significant numbers are > not meaningful since they would not change the behavior of the Brit trying > to beat all the other Brits. I still don't see how the Brits or Americans training harder to beat the Africans makes either statistical correlations or even genetic/sociological "facts" meaningful to athletes and coaches. Anytime an individual or group has come along and dominated an event, the rest of the world tries to learn from them and adjust their training/focus accordingly. Even if every runner in the world accepts that the Africans have a genetic advantage, so what? How does that have any meaning. This was my only complaint last time this thread came up and I still haven't heard anything to convince me that this research is anything more than just an interesting academic excercise. - ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
-- "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And jon-boy, for every 10 black kids that sprint, probably 1 white > kid sprints... because of a$$'s like yourself who discourage them. Nah, you'll have to do better than that. There's no question that there is somewhat of a reverse discrimination against whites when it comes to sprinting, but I very much doubt there are 10x as many black kids sprinting. From what I've been associated with, and from watching things like local state/district meets, I'd say it's at "worst" 50/50, with probably a majority of white kids participating. (I've lived in and attended both predominately black and white neighborhoods/schools.) The perception that many more black kids participate is probably due to what we see at the more elite levels, which only serves to support Jon's point that you are so vehemently disagreeing with. I love irony. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Ed, I think the meaningful part applies to the notion that British athletes should train harder as Coe suggests in order to beat the Africans. If the reason for training harder is solely to beat the Africans then the numbers Entine quotes are meaningful, but if the reason for a Brit to train harder is to beat the other Brits then the statistically significant numbers are not meaningful since they would not change the behavior of the Brit trying to beat all the other Brits. Tom Derderian, the fastest 52 year-old Armenian middle distance runner in the world (it IS my genetics)...most Armenians are much better weight lifters or wrestlers. I am a genetic freak among my people, an outlier. - Original Message - From: Ed & Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > We are talking population genetics. When 7 percent of the world's > population > > holds 98 percent of the top times in sprinting, and 5 percent holds more > > than 70 percent of the top endurance times, it is meaningful. > > "statistically significant", yes. > > "meaningful"? I have yet to be convinced it means anything important. > > - Ed Parrot >
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
> We are talking population genetics. When 7 percent of the world's population > holds 98 percent of the top times in sprinting, and 5 percent holds more > than 70 percent of the top endurance times, it is meaningful. "statistically significant", yes. "meaningful"? I have yet to be convinced it means anything important. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Michael: I suggest you get hold of a good genetics book, such as Luca Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Genes. It will give you a little understanding of how population pockets evolved and the role of genetics in shaping phenotypes--characteristics--of body type and physiology. In fact, there has been a great deal of "gene exchange" between southern Spaniards, Italians and Portuguese and African societies, as well as between Africa and Greece. This is well documented in gene studies. It's also true the other way around. East Africans have about 60 percent of gene patterns in common with West Africans and about 40 percent with various white groups, particularly Arab populations. Mountainous north Africans, which share much of their genetic history with East Africans, also have a Berber component in their genetic history. This gene mix is undoubtedly a factor in the unique physical and physiological profile of East Africans as well as North Africans and southern Europeans. As you probably know, there have been very good runners from southern Mediterranean cultures for years, particularly in the longer distances. There is absolutely no evidence that such populations are doing significantly better in the context of overall trends. So although your prediction sounds jazzy, it's pure conjecture. On 8/9/01 4:30 PM, "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey John, > > I suppose the up and coming Spanish runners are African, huh? I wish I > could say that it was America's turn to take back distance running, but it > appears as though Spain is headed in that direction. Prediction: by 2008, > at the latest, the best middle and long distance runners in the World will > be Spanish, with the Africans, Americans, and other Europeans mixing it up a > bit. > > M > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Hey John, I suppose the up and coming Spanish runners are African, huh? I wish I could say that it was America's turn to take back distance running, but it appears as though Spain is headed in that direction. Prediction: by 2008, at the latest, the best middle and long distance runners in the World will be Spanish, with the Africans, Americans, and other Europeans mixing it up a bit. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Years ago, in the late seventies, a certain Steve Ovett attended a coaching seminar where the lecturer said that Brits would never again be a force in middle distance running. The Africans (and New Zealanders) were the new force to be reckoned with and the Brits would slide into oblivion. I wonder if the lecturer was a relative. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
It's ok Malmo .. I'm still trying to figure out what part of Africa Kederis is from ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Jon Entine'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Track and Field List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:28 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > GRRR! > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:06 PM > > To: malmo; Track and Field List > > Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > > > > > Malmo: > > > > You are an angry person... > > > > Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without > > question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and > > unequivocally. > > > > How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have > > to deal with in the confessional both. > > > > > > On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's > > > bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. > > > > > > Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. > > > > > > malmo > > > > > >> -Original Message- > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > > >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM > > >> To: Track and Field List > > >> Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > >> > > >> > > >> Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to > > >> print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a > > website, please > > >> send me a note. I will be most obliging. > > >> > > >> ** > > >> > > >> 9 August 2001 > > >> > > >> The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) > > Will Never > > >> Again Hold a Distance Running Record > > >> > > >> By Jon Entine > > >> > > >> When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at Sundays > > >> World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well > > signal the end > > >> of an era. The age of great British middle distance > > runners is gone > > >> forever. Once the worlds dominant power, with a bloodline of > > >> Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that > > >> regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are > > >> today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and > > East Africans. > > >> > > >> The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually > > part of a > > >> more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern > > >> European stock used to dominate distance running, former > > greats such > > >> as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British > > bashing. ½So > > >> where is the problem?. wrote Coe last week in the > > Telegraph. . ½The > > >> answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, 'lies not in > > the stars > > >> but in our hands - run faster.. Coe went on to exhort > > aspiring Brits > > >> to train with the ½brutal. commitment of days gone by - ½the > > >> mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 > > >> years ago,. he added modestly. > > >> > > >> Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the > > stars, because > > >> distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, > > >> white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And > > >> cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. > > >> > > >> The world rankings, which combine race results from the > > 800 metres to > > >> the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from > > Kenya, hold > > >> the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are > > >> Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in > > >> Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. > > >> > > >> If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this > > extraordinary > >
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
GRRR! > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:06 PM > To: malmo; Track and Field List > Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > > Malmo: > > You are an angry person... > > Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without > question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and > unequivocally. > > How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have > to deal with in the confessional both. > > > On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's > > bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. > > > > Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. > > > > malmo > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM > >> To: Track and Field List > >> Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > >> > >> > >> Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to > >> print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a > website, please > >> send me a note. I will be most obliging. > >> > >> ** > >> > >> 9 August 2001 > >> > >> The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) > Will Never > >> Again Hold a Distance Running Record > >> > >> By Jon Entine > >> > >> When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at Sundays > >> World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well > signal the end > >> of an era. The age of great British middle distance > runners is gone > >> forever. Once the worlds dominant power, with a bloodline of > >> Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that > >> regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are > >> today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and > East Africans. > >> > >> The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually > part of a > >> more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern > >> European stock used to dominate distance running, former > greats such > >> as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British > bashing. ½So > >> where is the problem? wrote Coe last week in the > Telegraph. . ½The > >> answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in > the stars > >> but in our hands - run faster. Coe went on to exhort > aspiring Brits > >> to train with the ½brutal commitment of days gone by - ½the > >> mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 > >> years ago, he added modestly. > >> > >> Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the > stars, because > >> distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, > >> white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And > >> cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. > >> > >> The world rankings, which combine race results from the > 800 metres to > >> the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from > Kenya, hold > >> the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are > >> Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in > >> Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. > >> > >> If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this > extraordinary > >> phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of > >> British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, theyd > >> challenge for gold. Certainly, Coes 1981 800-metre run in > Stockholm > >> ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the > >> all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that > Britains reign > >> as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by > >> the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the > >> fact that for the most part Africans didnt compete. While > >> nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration > >> of fading glory, it cant change the hard reality that > >> Britains middle distance running glory is gone for good, > >> whatever t
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Sigh... Michael, you just don't want to acknowledge the issues. When a .200 hitter has a three hit day, we don't suddenly call him the leagues' best hitter. We are talking population genetics. When 7 percent of the world's population holds 98 percent of the top times in sprinting, and 5 percent holds more than 70 percent of the top endurance times, it is meaningful. The overall numbers at Edmonton, and in this current track season, more than bears out the trends. Genetics is not destiny, just a sign of probability. This is not a black and white issue as my post made clear. The differences within the black population are as great or greater than within any population in the world. My question is "why does this have to be an issue with race with you? On 8/9/01 1:24 PM, "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > women's 100... > white, black, white > > men's 400... > white, black, black > > men's 200... > well... we don't know yet... but you can probably count on the white OC to > be in the mix... and one of the top 200 guys of the year in Little being top > 5 at worst. > > And jon-boy, for every 10 black kids that sprint, probably 1 white kid > sprints... because of a$$'s like yourself who discourage them. > > My question is this though... why does it have to be an issue with race with > you? Do you have anything else to offer to this sport other than further > dividing those of different skin color? > >> From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: malmo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Track and Field List >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running >> Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:05:43 -0700 >> >> Malmo: >> >> You are an angry person... >> >> Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without question, the >> underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and unequivocally. >> >> How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have to deal with >> in the confessional both. >> >> >> On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's >>> bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. >>> >>> Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. >>> >>> malmo >>> >>>> -Original Message- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM >>>> To: Track and Field List >>>> Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running >>>> >>>> >>>> Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants >>>> to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a >>>> website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. >>>> >>>> ** >>>> >>>> 9 August 2001 >>>> >>>> The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) >>>> Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record >>>> >>>> By Jon Entine >>>> >>>> When the gun goes off for the men?s 1500 metre final at >>>> Sunday?s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as >>>> well signal the end of an era. The age of great British >>>> middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world?s >>>> dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve >>>> Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left >>>> competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere >>>> also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. >>>> >>>> The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually >>>> part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and >>>> others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance >>>> running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe >>>> now indulge in British bashing. 12So where is the problem? >>>> wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . 12The answer, I rather >>>> fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our >>>> hands? - run faster. Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to >>>> train with the 12brutal commitment of days gone by - 12the >>>> mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 >>>> years ago, he added modestly. >>>> >>
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Malmo: You are an angry person... Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and unequivocally. How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have to deal with in the confessional both. On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's > bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. > > Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. > > malmo > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM >> To: Track and Field List >> Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running >> >> >> Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants >> to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a >> website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. >> >> ** >> >> 9 August 2001 >> >> The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) >> Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record >> >> By Jon Entine >> >> When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at >> Sundays World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as >> well signal the end of an era. The age of great British >> middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the worlds >> dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve >> Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left >> competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere >> also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. >> >> The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually >> part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and >> others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance >> running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe >> now indulge in British bashing. ½So where is the problem? >> wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ½The answer, I rather >> fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our >> hands - run faster. Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to >> train with the ½brutal commitment of days gone by - ½the >> mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 >> years ago, he added modestly. >> >> Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, >> because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or >> North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle >> as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with >> this changing phenomenon. >> >> The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 >> metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, >> eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, >> the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of >> social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans >> remain somewhat more competitive. >> >> If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this >> extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: >> the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they >> just tried harder, theyd challenge for gold. Certainly, >> Coes 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the >> great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list >> of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britains reign as >> middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by >> the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the >> fact that for the most part Africans didnt compete. While >> nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration >> of fading glory, it cant change the hard reality that >> Britains middle distance running glory is gone for good, >> whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the >> playing field is more level-running is a worldwide sport, >> drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South >> America-Northern Europeans are decidedly second-class. >> >> Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. >> While Coes best time ranks third on the all time list, >> Elliotts stands at 45, Crams at 67, and Ovetts at 341. On >> a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current >> world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times >> in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the >> top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold >> 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. >> >> What about Coes whine that British runners could transform >> themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they >> mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great >> because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in >> practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who >> destroyed Coes long-held 800-metre record in 1997. "I lived >> right next door to school," he laughs. "I walked, nice and slow." >> >> The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in >> 100-mile weeks, there are others,
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Jon Entine wrote: > Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this > unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I > will be most obliging. Jon, how did West African genes get to the Ukraine and East African genes get to Switzerland? -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. malmo > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM > To: Track and Field List > Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running > > > Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants > to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a > website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. > > ** > > 9 August 2001 > > The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) > Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record > > By Jon Entine > > When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at > Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as > well signal the end of an era. The age of great British > middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s > dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve > Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left > competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere > also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. > > The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually > part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and > others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance > running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe > now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² > wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather > fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our > hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to > train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the > mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 > years ago,² he added modestly. > > Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, > because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or > North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle > as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with > this changing phenomenon. > > The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 > metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, > eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, > the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of > social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans > remain somewhat more competitive. > > If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this > extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: > the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they > just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. Certainly, > Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the > great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list > of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as > middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by > the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the > fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While > nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration > of fading glory, it can¹t change the hard reality that > Britain¹s middle distance running glory is gone for good, > whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the > playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, > drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South > AmericaNorthern Europeans are decidedly second-class. > > Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. > While Coe¹s best time ranks third on the all time list, > Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On > a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current > world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times > in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the > top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold > 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. > > What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform > themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they > mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great > because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in > practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who > destroyed Coe¹s long-held 800-metre record in 1997. "I lived > right next door to school," he laughs. "I walked, nice and slow." > > The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in > 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get > along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied > in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, > coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and > running factory in the valley that turned out Kipketer and > other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so > common among world champion wannabee
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Book sales down again Jon? Alan >From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Track and Field List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:45:55 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBD3C26A300C5400438A180DF8E0DF21C0; Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:51:25 -0700 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) >id f79ImTe23958for t-and-f-outgoing; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:48:29 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net >[207.217.120.18])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id >f79ImR023935for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 >11:48:27 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from [10.0.1.2] (hsa043.pool011.at001.earthlink.net >[216.249.74.43])by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with >ESMTP id LAA19948for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 >11:48:24 -0700 (PDT) >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:52:07 -0700 >User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu >id f79ImR023937 >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Precedence: bulk > >Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this >unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I >will be most obliging. > >** > >9 August 2001 > >The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again >Hold a Distance Running Record > >By Jon Entine > >When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World >Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. >The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the >world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, >Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, >the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North >and East Africans. > >The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more >sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock >used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and >Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² >wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as >Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² >Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment >of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was >commonplace >20 years ago,² he added modestly. > >Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because >distance >runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, >will >never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little >do with this changing phenomenon. > >The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the >marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top >10 >places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, >because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans >remain somewhat more competitive. > >If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this extraordinary >phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British >athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. >Certainly, Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great >all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs >makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as middle distance champion (and prior >periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks >mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While >nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading >glory, >it can¹t change the hard reality that Britain¹s middle distance running >glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now >that >the playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, drawing >competitors from Africa, Asia and South AmericaNorthern Europeans are >decidedly second-class. > >Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coe¹s >best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s >at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to >challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has >28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top >100 >to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 >times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. > >What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform themselves from >joggers into champions if only they pai
