Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[ael]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:20:49PM +0100, François Lacombe wrote:
> I doubt a lot about mandatory navigability of canals.
> What about waterways intended to feed mills or fountains ?

As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Yay, new howto map for diabilities created in wiki

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 22:37, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
> The word handicap in this context is very outdated. It is likely to be
> seen as condescending.
>

Off-topic, but "handicapped" was once considered the preferred term.  It
came from a
worldview influenced by religion, that God had caused people to be born
differently in
order to make life fairer: they were such good souls that they needed to be
handicapped
(as race horses are) in order that they didn't have an unfair advantage
over the others.  And
it was considered better than epithets like "cripple" that were used
disparagingly.

Of course, human nature being what it is, the term "handicapped" came to be
used disparagingly.
So now people are "disabled" instead.  Except that is also being
increasingly used disparagingly,
so people now have special needs.

To bring it back on topic, I suspect that whatever term is chosen, in a few
decades it will be
frowned upon in favour of a new term.  I wish it were otherwise, but human
nature has already
required the serial invention of euphemisms for many things because
well-intentioned terms
become used, by some, in a disparaging way.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Imagery variations/misalignments in iD - which to use?

[André Pirard]

On 2019-01-12 06:33, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:26 AM John Willis > wrote:


The issue I am facing is that, even after some adjustment of the
angle of bing imagery, there seems to be some distortion. things
don’t line up well between the Bing and ortho maps in some places,
and are much closer in others.  a *lot* of the mapping aligns with
the bing imagery, but there are areas of obvious 2-3m distortion
in places (the road is wavy), but other areas of newer/clearer
imagry align with the ortho imagry.

Bing is sometimes (often? I almost never use it) inconsistent (offset) 
with itself at different zoom levels.
I also encounter this "wavy" roads in imagery. I think they are the 
result of improper orthorectification by the imagery provider. 
Satellite imagery is often off-nadir (not photographed straight down) 
so providers correct for differences in terrain elevation by 
rectifying them based on available elevation models. Unfortunately, 
many elevation models like SRTM cannot distinguish between buildings 
and hills and so roads are often distorted around tall buildings in 
many parts of the world.
I don't think that orthorectification uses elevation maps as correction. 
Rather, they combine shots from different angles to compute the position 
of objects and that computes their elevation. A nadir photograph of a 
building is uninteresting because it only shows the roof. Side shots 
show the walls and allow computation of their height and ground 
location.  Aerial imagery shows only one of the many shots they have.
I don't have any good solution for this aside from trying to get 
access to better imagery so I just try to map things as best as I can. 
It may also help to avoid micromapping unless you are sure that the 
imagery is really good.
The orthorectification we can use in Wallonia (PICC) is really perfect. 
Of the lines I see it computes in places I know, almost only the center 
of the road can be not wrong but debatable. Sometimes lanes that have 
been changed to parking or things like that are not up to date, but 
that's manual fixing, not orthorectification.


All the best,

André.


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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

In Belarus we have many canals which redirect part of a river flow into
another river and they are much larger than ditches but are not navigable.
Also hen a stream is straightened you would call that a ditch, but when a
river is straightened you would call it a canal.even if it is not navigable.
So to say a canal can be any size but carring useful water.

сб, 12 янв. 2019 г. в 13:26, ael :

> On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:20:49PM +0100, François Lacombe wrote:
> > I doubt a lot about mandatory navigability of canals.
> > What about waterways intended to feed mills or fountains ?
>
> As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
> maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
> terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
> expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair designated parking space tagging?

[althio]

Richard  wrote:
> many parking places are fee=yes for normal users and fee=no for handicapped 
> users.
> How can this be mapped?

As documented on the https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee you
can use the conditional structure:
> For example one may use fee:conditional=no @ customers or fee:conditional=yes 
> @ (08:00-19:00).

So you can have:
fee=yes
fee:conditional=no @ disabled

and you can find some instances in the database like:
fee:conditional=yes @ (Mo-Fr 08:00-13:00, 14:30-19:30; PH off); no @ (disabled)
fee:conditional=no @ Su,PH; no @ disabled; no @ motorcycle; no @ stay<1h

-- althio

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Markus]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 21:03, François Lacombe
 wrote:
>
> Regarding ditch, it regards both useful and waste water.

While true in English usage, waterway=drain apparently was intended
for artificial waterways removing undesirable water:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/038505.html

See here for the whole discussion about 'How to tag small canals?'
from August 2018:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2018-August/thread.html#38452

If you want to extend the meaning of waterway=drain to also include
artificial waterways, how do you intend to differentiate them from
waterway=canal?

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[François Lacombe]

Hi

Le sam. 12 janv. 2019 à 11:26, ael  a écrit :

> As other have implied, these are not called canals in UK English: but
> maybe there are exceptions. Mill streams or Mill races are the usual
> terms. I am not familiar with any special terms for fountains: I would
> expect a phrase like "piped supply" in most (underground) cases.
>

The Oxford Dictionary includes irrigation in the purpose of a canal
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/canal

The millrace is implemented in OSM with two usage=* values :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:usage%3Dheadrace
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:usage%3Dtailrace

That's two particular usages of some waterways including canal or
pressurised waterways.

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Top up

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jan 2019, at 08:51, Markus  wrote:
> 
> Isn't prepaid_top_up:network= redundant because 
> (e.g. PayPoint) is also a brand and thus prepaid_top_up:brand=
> would suffice?


it also isn’t unambiguous because you will have all brands in one key, and it 
will not be possible to tell if that’s mobile phone, public transport or 
whichever top ups are provided.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

>
> Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> name is wrong :)
> Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> "Tag:shop=caravan".
>

Thanks Lorenzo!

Done, so page is now at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
but

> > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
>
all the other languages are still listed?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Imagery variations/misalignments in iD - which to use?

[Volker Schmidt]

Let me just inject that the wavy-roads problem is also present at Big G.
Go have a look at
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Primolano/@45.9501667,11.7245655,732m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4778e912d5d438bb:0xa9e8d85e1a0a7260!8m2!3d45.965432!4d11.7009884

Back to the argument of the thread: Generally speaking, of the maps we have
available for OSM in Italy, the best ones are the oldest ones: PCN2006,
poor resolution but near-perfect position (based on many GPX tracks) and
good parallax correction. The worst are normally Bing. They have not only a
position shift of many meters (that varies with the location), but also
considerable problems with parallax correction, up to tens of meters (very
poor parallax correction on hilly terrain). The others DigitalGlobe, Esri,
Mapbox are in-between, but are have only shifted positions, but not the
parallax problems of Bing.
Obviously I have no idea if Bing in Italy is technically the same as in
Japan.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 at 18:41, André Pirard  wrote:

> On 2019-01-12 06:33, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 8:26 AM John Willis  wrote:
>
>> The issue I am facing is that, even after some adjustment of the angle of
>> bing imagery, there seems to be some distortion. things don’t line up well
>> between the Bing and ortho maps in some places, and are much closer in
>> others.  a *lot* of the mapping aligns with the bing imagery, but there are
>> areas of obvious 2-3m distortion in places (the road is wavy), but other
>> areas of newer/clearer imagry align with the ortho imagry.
>>
> Bing is sometimes (often? I almost never use it) inconsistent (offset)
> with itself at different zoom levels.
>
> I also encounter this "wavy" roads in imagery. I think they are the result
> of improper orthorectification by the imagery provider. Satellite imagery
> is often off-nadir (not photographed straight down) so providers correct
> for differences in terrain elevation by rectifying them based on available
> elevation models. Unfortunately, many elevation models like SRTM cannot
> distinguish between buildings and hills and so roads are often distorted
> around tall buildings in many parts of the world.
>
> I don't think that orthorectification uses elevation maps as correction.
> Rather, they combine shots from different angles to compute the position of
> objects and that computes their elevation. A nadir photograph of a building
> is uninteresting because it only shows the roof. Side shots show the walls
> and allow computation of their height and ground location.  Aerial imagery
> shows only one of the many shots they have.
>
> I don't have any good solution for this aside from trying to get access to
> better imagery so I just try to map things as best as I can. It may also
> help to avoid micromapping unless you are sure that the imagery is really
> good.
>
> The orthorectification we can use in Wallonia (PICC) is really perfect. Of
> the lines I see it computes in places I know, almost only the center of the
> road can be not wrong but debatable. Sometimes lanes that have been changed
> to parking or things like that are not up to date, but that's manual
> fixing, not orthorectification.
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno mar, 08/01/2019 alle 07.54 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
scritto:
> 
> > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> > 
> 
> Still have to get rid of all the language options though & can't see
> any way of doing that? 
> 


Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
name is wrong :)
Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
"Tag:shop=caravan".

See here for page naming:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki_organisation#Pages_naming_convention


Lorenzo


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
scritto:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > name is wrong :)
> > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> 
> Thanks Lorenzo!
> 
> Done, so page is now at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan, 
> but 
> > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> 
> all the other languages are still listed?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 

Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.



Lorenzo


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
caravan parts and accessories but not caravans. There are any such shops
scattered around the U.S. Also, I see you've decided not to be specific
about the type or style of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or
caravan:class might be useful to distinguish between type_a, type_c,
fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.  I think I saw some comments earlier in this
thread about class.

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 9:13 AM Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

> Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
> scritto:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> > lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > > name is wrong :)
> > > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> >
> > Thanks Lorenzo!
> >
> > Done, so page is now at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
> > but
> > > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> >
> > all the other languages are still listed?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>

No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?


> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>

Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
"how" but no feedback yet

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>

motorised=yes / no?

propulsion=towed / motorised?

Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be a
good coverall term?)

It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
> to sell one or the other, but not both.


But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that you'll
only be able to find one or the other?

As I mentioned earlier, if we had

caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer

would you be able to search for the type you want?

So, any thoughts?

Thanks

Graeme

PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 12:13, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

> Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
> scritto:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> > lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > > name is wrong :)
> > > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> >
> > Thanks Lorenzo!
> >
> > Done, so page is now at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
> > but
> > > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> >
> > all the other languages are still listed?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 12:13, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>

That's got it! (but no idea of what that actually means! :-))


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Jan 2019, at 17:45, Markus  wrote:
> 
> A wiki page in non-English language should be a translation. Defining
> a tag differently is problematical as its meaning becomes diluted or
> worst gets lost.



+1, it is not helpful to cite non-English translations here on tagging. If 
these differ significantly they should be fixed rather than used to contribute 
to the confusion.


Cheers, Martin 
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