Re: [Tagging] Taginfo for specific geographies

2013-11-26 Thread Erik Johansson
No, when I looked at the code last year there was no indication that you
could do that in any easy way.


The taginfo import is reported to take 10 minutes for Sweden so I guess if
the box isn't that big you can always try to extract it and import it to
your own taginfo db. Now when we have taginfo on osm.org maybe we can put
all of the local variants there.


On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:34 AM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to find all of the tags that are used over a user specified
 geography (could be a country or a bounding box).  Is there anyway to do
 this for geographies other than those listed here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Taginfo/Sites

 Mike

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/25 Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de

  This means that by any traditional reading, the proposal has been
  rejected, even though you seem to avoid the word.

 I am not avoiding anything, I am simply stating facts. And as a matter
 of fact, there are 19 positive votes, 18 negative ones, and one
 partial approval. By any mathematical reading, 19  18.



You are cheating here, the voting period finished at 23 November, and by
the 14th of November all 18 no-votes had already been cast, leading with
this apparently clear rejection to desinterest by other potential
rejecters. You are now counting post-voting-votes on the yes side in order
to obfuscate the actual result. This proposal was rejected according to our
rules and I now set it to rejected in the wiki.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Manuel Hohmann
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 You are cheating here, the voting period finished at 23
 November, and by the 14th of November all 18 no-votes had already
 been cast, leading with this apparently clear rejection to
 desinterest by other potential rejecters. You are now counting
 post-voting-votes on the yes side in order to obfuscate the actual
 result. This proposal was rejected according to our rules and I now
 set it to rejected in the wiki.

Just in case you did not get it the first time:

- - The 14th of November does not have any relevance here - there is no
counting of votes somewhere in the middle of voting.

- - Everyone has been free to vote, no matter the current vote count. If
someone does vote against the proposal, his vote cannot be counted.

- - At the end of the voting period there were 18 yes, 18 no and one
partial yes. If this in in any way a clear result, then it is a draw.

- - Comments indicate that the dominant reason for opposing was
deprecating highway=street_lamp, not the additional / new tags of the
proposal.

- - The positive votes, further comments and the fact that even after
the official voting period someone handed in another positive vote
indicate clear interest in this proposal, or at least into its
continuing development.

- - For the aforementioned reasons, this proposal is further being
worked on. I therefore set it to proposed, and I did this for a reason.

- - I am not obfuscating anything, I am stating facts, and these can
be found in the wiki.

I hope this is finally clarified. Your opposing vote has been counted,
the reasons you have given were taken into account and have been
commented on. If you would like to further contribute, feel free to
reply to these comments, or make further suggestions, or feel free to
create your own proposal. I will continue working on this one, and
take into account any constructive criticism or other contributions,
including the received comments during voting, from anyone who is
interested in contributing.
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Tobias Knerr
On 26.11.2013 11:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 
 This proposal was rejected
 according to our rules and I now set it to rejected in the wiki.

The rules also state All suggestions should be taken into account
before a proposal is approved or rejected. The author is trying to do
just that.

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Pieren
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where can I read the rules? I searched the wiki for voting tag
 proposals etc and couldn't find them.

On the Proposed_features main page. But don't read it as hard-coded
rules but more as recommendations. I don't like when people think
that the wiki is the bible. But I also don't like people saying that
the vote process should be completely ignored. Take it as a good
opportunity to express verbally a maximum of feedbacks, opinions and
arguments about tags in OSM. It's better than nothing.

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/26 Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de

 - - At the end of the voting period there were 18 yes, 18 no and one
 partial yes. If this in in any way a clear result, then it is a draw.



A draw means rejected as it isn't a majority for yes. A partial yes
like an abstain counts as vote that isn't yes, so for practical reasons
you can count this like a no. At least this is what the rules had been so
far.

To make it clear, I am not in general against tagging lights and lamps
(besides those that already get tagged), but I also do not think that all
kind of light emitting objects have necessarily to go under one and the
same tag. Generally substituting one tag by requiring two tags isn't
desirable (IMHO). The tag highway=street_lamp is widely used and there is
(IMHO) no reason to believe a street light/lamp isn't part of a highway.
You can see it as one or the other and apparently there are not so few
mappers who see it as a usable tag.

Given that there is already a tag for the (supposedly) most required thing
in this field to be tagged, why not invent a (or more) new tag(s) for what
remains and you want to tag? And when inventing a new tag, why not do it
right (i.e. with the correct terminology)? Just as there are different
words in German (Leuchte, Strahler, Scheinwerfer, Fluter as opposed to
Lampe), there are also in English. Why not e.g. use a tag floodlights
for certain typology of lights, or lantern for another? As an analogy, we
also do not use highway=street, street=primary because the way stuff
went has brought us this distinction already in the main tag, and someone
now trying to reinvent this wheel would most probably fail.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Dan S
2013/11/26 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
 On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where can I read the rules? I searched the wiki for voting tag
 proposals etc and couldn't find them.

 On the Proposed_features main page.

Thanks.

 But don't read it as hard-coded
 rules but more as recommendations. I don't like when people think
 that the wiki is the bible. But I also don't like people saying that
 the vote process should be completely ignored. Take it as a good
 opportunity to express verbally a maximum of feedbacks, opinions and
 arguments about tags in OSM. It's better than nothing.

I agree strongly. In this case, with an almost perfectly inconclusive
result, I would say it is unfair to stamp the proposal as rejected
since there was not a majority no-vote; but equally wrong to stamp it
as sort-of-accepted (these are the two main positions in this thread
so far!). The message from the voters is clear: maybe, but not in this
exact form. Maybe the authors of the proposal will refine it to a
stronger proposal, or maybe they won't. But it seems to me that some
informal evolution is the next thing to consider, rather than repeated
rounds of hyper-formalised proposing and voting.

Dan

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/26 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com

 I agree strongly. In this case, with an almost perfectly inconclusive
 result, I would say it is unfair to stamp the proposal as rejected
 since there was not a majority no-vote;



actually this is how things are (and were) done nonetheless. There are lots
of proposals that got rejected with zero no-votes, just because they hadn't
gotten enough yes votes. The rules state that you need an absolute majority
of yes for the approval. If a proposal gets rejected in a voting, this
doesn't mean you cannot repropose it (indeed this is what is done here for
the second time).



 but equally wrong to stamp it
 as sort-of-accepted (these are the two main positions in this thread
 so far!). The message from the voters is clear: maybe, but not in this
 exact form.



+1, usually if there are a lot of no-votes there is something wrong, even
if there is a majority of yes-votes.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Taginfo for specific geographies

2013-11-26 Thread Matthijs Melissen
Maybe Tagwatch does what you are looking for?
http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/

Matthijs
On Nov 25, 2013 11:34 PM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to find all of the tags that are used over a user specified
 geography (could be a country or a bounding box).  Is there anyway to do
 this for geographies other than those listed here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Taginfo/Sites

 Mike

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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Manuel Hohmann
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 A draw means rejected as it isn't a majority for yes. A
 partial yes like an abstain counts as vote that isn't yes, so
 for practical reasons you can count this like a no. At least this
 is what the rules had been so far.

A draw is a draw, it's not a majority for no either. You can count
an abstain whatever you want, it neither yes nor no. Here we had
a partial yes. And besides, as I explained before, I also took into
account the comments and reasons for opposing in the decision to keep
working on the proposal.

 To make it clear, I am not in general against tagging lights and
 lamps (besides those that already get tagged), but I also do not
 think that all kind of light emitting objects have necessarily to
 go under one and the same tag. Generally substituting one tag by
 requiring two tags isn't desirable (IMHO). The tag
 highway=street_lamp is widely used and there is (IMHO) no reason
 to believe a street light/lamp isn't part of a highway. You can see
 it as one or the other and apparently there are not so few mappers
 who see it as a usable tag.

Yes, this is the main outcome of the voting, as I said. And this will
be taken into account in the further work on this proposal. The
discussions here and in the forum have shown that both opinions exist
- - regarding street lamps as part of the highway or not.

 Given that there is already a tag for the (supposedly) most
 required thing in this field to be tagged, why not invent a (or
 more) new tag(s) for what remains and you want to tag?

Of course one can do this as well. My aim was to unify the tagging of
these objects, since they all generate light. This idea is not new -
think of public_transport=stop_position, for example. But of course
one can have different opinions, as always in OSM.

 And when inventing a new tag, why not do it right (i.e. with the 
 correct terminology)? Just as there are different words in German 
 (Leuchte, Strahler, Scheinwerfer, Fluter as opposed to Lampe), 
 there are also in English.

I was using the term that was attested to me by native speakers to be
most commonly used, and also understandable to others. Many people,
especially non-native speakers, might not even know the term light
fitting, even though it's correct UK English.

 Why not e.g. use a tag floodlights for certain typology of
 lights, or lantern for another?

This is also possible, provided that one can easily distinguish these
topologies. As a remark, lantern was also on my list, but as I
figured out, it usually refers to portable light sources.

 As an analogy, we also do not use highway=street,
 street=primary because the way stuff went has brought us this
 distinction already in the main tag, and someone now trying to
 reinvent this wheel would most probably fail.

Of course, highway=* is a key that already indicates some type of way
or related feature, so one can immediately specify the type of feature
in the value. highway=street, street=primary would thus make no
sense. This is different for man_made=*, which does not give much
information on the type of object.

One could of course also think of not using man_made at all, and
introduce light=floodlights etc. as a new primary tag, in order to
group light sources with a more unified tagging. But honestly I have
no idea whether this would be better or worse.
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2013/11/26 Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de

  A draw means rejected as it isn't a majority for yes.
 A draw is a draw, it's not a majority for no either.



yes, rejected ;-)


My aim was to unify the tagging of
 these objects, since they all generate light. This idea is not new -
 think of public_transport=stop_position, for example.



a good example where it didn't work either: there are 1.2M of
highway=bus_stop but only 200K public_transport platform and stop_position.



 Why not e.g. use a tag floodlights for certain typology of
  lights, or lantern for another?

 This is also possible, provided that one can easily distinguish these
 topologies. As a remark, lantern was also on my list, but as I
 figured out, it usually refers to portable light sources.



there are also fixed lanterns, and there is even another use for it in
architecture, probably you'll find it in this context as well
(building:part etc.)
fixed lantern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lanterna_cafoscari.jpg
architecture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laternebap.jpg


One could of course also think of not using man_made at all, and

 introduce light=floodlights etc. as a new primary tag, in order to
 group light sources with a more unified tagging. But honestly I have
 no idea whether this would be better or worse.



You could use man_made=pole / post / mast / tower /... for the
support/structure (if mapped on a node).

What would be other values for this new key?
Checked it, actually light is taken:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/light#values
but light_type seems available (zero usage as of taginfo). There is 337
of security:light_type which supports the idea that light_type is about
the type of lightning device
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/security%3Alight_type and also the
lamp_types support this reading:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lamp_type (they do not refer to the
fixture).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp

2013-11-26 Thread Manuel Hohmann
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 yes, rejected ;-)

I'm really not sure what you don't understand about the word DRAW or
about the fact that the total number of positive votes exceeds the
total number of negative votes. But another fact is that your opinion
does not alter any of these facts.

 a good example where it didn't work either: there are 1.2M of 
 highway=bus_stop but only 200K public_transport platform and 
 stop_position.

I wouldn't call an approved proposal, which hat 200K applications so
far (the same order of magnitude as highway=street_lamp), not working.

 there are also fixed lanterns, and there is even another use for it
 in architecture, probably you'll find it in this context as well 
 (building:part etc.)

Yes, there are indeed, I do not doubt that. It was just a general
remark that this tag may also be misinterpreted (which probably
applies to many words, one needs to choose carefully in any case).

 You could use man_made=pole / post / mast / tower /... for the 
 support/structure (if mapped on a node).

Sounds reasonable to me, but also raises the question: If something is
tagged as man_made=pole + light=* or the like, and there are
additional tags, what do these tags apply to? This is the same problem
as with tagging tourism=hotel, amenity=restaurant, and then something
like wheelchair=yes all on one node - to which does the latter apply?
In this example one can usually separate the hotel and the restaurant,
but for a street lamp, one would probably want to attribute the pole
and the light source to the same node, as they belong to a common
structure.

 What would be other values for this new key?

I guess that would be things that I placed under lamp:type in my
proposal. For example, just some quick ideas:

- - lantern (which I actually like more than the lamp:type=street_lamp
in my proposal, since it takes the street out of this name, and
would be a lighting for maybe a railway, an area... or a street)
- - signal_lamp (yes, I checked the term - see wikipedia)
- - warning (a hazard warning lamp)
- - aviation (like those lights at an airport runway)

 Checked it, actually light is taken: 
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/light#values but light_type
 seems available (zero usage as of taginfo).

What about light_source? This is also not used so far, and it gives a
rather accurate description of the object being mapped. Something
ending in _type sounds more like a subclass to me (as we don't tag
highway_type=*, but highway=track, tracktype=*).
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Re: [Tagging] Taginfo for specific geographies

2013-11-26 Thread Mike Thompson
Thanks for the replies.  The link Mattthijs provides the information I need
for now.

Erik, good to know the run time to setup ones own taginfo db is reasonable.

Mike


On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 5:50 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
 wrote:

 Maybe Tagwatch does what you are looking for?
 http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/

 Matthijs
 On Nov 25, 2013 11:34 PM, Mike Thompson miketh...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to find all of the tags that are used over a user specified
 geography (could be a country or a bounding box).  Is there anyway to do
 this for geographies other than those listed here:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Taginfo/Sites

 Mike

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[Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread Janko Mihelić
Hi,

Openstreetmap has been contributing to the Bitcoin revolution with this map:

http://coinmap.org/

the problem is that lots of online businesses want to get on the map, and I
don't know what tags to suggest. Should we invent something like
office=online? Then it could be further specified with online:shop=clothes,
online=pizza_delivery, or something like that.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread Yves
Placing online businesses on a world map may be more tricky than you think ...
Yves


Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com a écrit :
Hi,

Openstreetmap has been contributing to the Bitcoin revolution with this
map:

http://coinmap.org/

the problem is that lots of online businesses want to get on the map,
and I
don't know what tags to suggest. Should we invent something like
office=online? Then it could be further specified with
online:shop=clothes,
online=pizza_delivery, or something like that.

Janko




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Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread Richard Welty
On 11/26/13 4:13 PM, Yves wrote:
 Placing online businesses on a world map may be more tricky than you
 think ...
yes. the concept of a geographic location is sometimes
challenging. when the business is running a web store
in the cloud and outsourcing the order fulfillment then
it's hard to say exactly where they are on the map.

richard



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Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread Frederik Ramm
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Hi,

On 26.11.2013 22:31, Richard Welty wrote:
 yes. the concept of a geographic location is sometimes challenging.
 when the business is running a web store in the cloud and
 outsourcing the order fulfillment then it's hard to say exactly
 where they are on the map.

The probably don't care where the pin is as long as it somehow
increases their search engine ranking ;)

Bye
Frederik

- -- 
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Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread Janko Mihelić
Do we really want to delete this data? Is there any value to it?

What they usually show is the website headquarters. So maybe a good tag is
office=website_headquaters.




2013/11/26 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi,

 On 26.11.2013 22:31, Richard Welty wrote:
  yes. the concept of a geographic location is sometimes challenging.
  when the business is running a web store in the cloud and
  outsourcing the order fulfillment then it's hard to say exactly
  where they are on the map.

 The probably don't care where the pin is as long as it somehow
 increases their search engine ranking ;)

 Bye
 Frederik

 - --
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
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Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops

2013-11-26 Thread SomeoneElse

Janko Mihelić wrote:



http://coinmap.org/


The video on there didn't mention adding a main tag at all when I 
watched it.




the problem is that lots of online businesses want to get on the map, 
and I don't know what tags to suggest.


Ignoring the online businesses, there are plenty of real-world 
businesses that have been added without real tags, and iD doesn't 
exactly make it obvious that it's useful for a shop to have a shop 
tag. The main discussion area seems to be here:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=5cbm6g9p0nsgu1ui19v8hmrf41topic=175900.0;all

Cheers,

Andy


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