Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
2013/11/26 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com the problem is that lots of online businesses want to get on the map, and I don't know what tags to suggest. Should we invent something like office=online? Then it could be further specified with online:shop=clothes, online=pizza_delivery, or something like that. online is very generic, my preference would be something slightly more specific like office=e-commerce or office=internet_service_provider, etc (still leaving a lot of room for subtags). A pizza delivery would hardly qualify as e-commerce (IMHO), regardless whether they use a web-interface or a telephone to take your order. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp
2013/11/26 Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de yes, rejected ;-) I'm really not sure what you don't understand about the word DRAW or about the fact that the total number of positive votes exceeds the total number of negative votes. I think it is pointless to continue discussing about a draw as the rules seem quite clearly to require a majority: A rule of thumb for enough support is *8 unanimous approval votes* or *15 total votes with a majority approval*, but other factors may also be considered (such as whether a feature is already in use). the fact that some of the tags you propose are already in use (differently to what you propose) doesn't strengthen the idea that this should be considered approved despite the strong opposition. there are also fixed lanterns, and there is even another use for it in architecture, probably you'll find it in this context as well (building:part etc.) Yes, there are indeed, I do not doubt that. It was just a general remark that this tag may also be misinterpreted (which probably applies to many words, one needs to choose carefully in any case). well, this is not an insurmountable hurdle, we should simply pay attention to how we precisely name those tags (e.g. the architectural element could be called roof_lantern). You could use man_made=pole / post / mast / tower /... for the support/structure (if mapped on a node). - - lantern (which I actually like more than the lamp:type=street_lamp in my proposal, since it takes the street out of this name, and would be a lighting for maybe a railway, an area... or a street) - - signal_lamp (yes, I checked the term - see wikipedia) - - warning (a hazard warning lamp) - - aviation (like those lights at an airport runway) these terms IMHO don't fit well under the same key, lantern is a type of light defined by the design/construction, while warning and aviation are defined by the scope. What about light_source? This is also not used so far, and it gives a rather accurate description of the object being mapped. Something ending in _type sounds more like a subclass to me (as we don't tag highway_type=*, but highway=track, tracktype=*). I would go for the established lamp_type as this is in use and has according values. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] the proposal process
When looking for the history of the proposal process page I found it hard to find the evolution of this page before August 2013. Any hints where to look for it? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] the proposal process
Hi Martin, It seems that user Fgnievinski split off the page from 'Proposed features': https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_featuresdiff=prevoldid=930880 Note that earlier this month, I have merged the pages 'Creating a proposal' and 'Creating a proposal' into 'Proposal process', so you might also be interested in the history of these pages. -- Matthijs On 27 November 2013 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: When looking for the history of the proposal process page I found it hard to find the evolution of this page before August 2013. Any hints where to look for it? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I think it is pointless to continue discussing about a draw as the rules seem quite clearly to require a majority: A rule of thumb for enough support is *8 unanimous approval votes* or *15 total votes with a majority approval*, but other factors may also be considered (such as whether a feature is already in use). the fact that some of the tags you propose are already in use (differently to what you propose) doesn't strengthen the idea that this should be considered approved despite the strong opposition. Of course I have nowhere written that my proposal has been approved or that it should be considered approved - simply because it did not reach a majority, and there was enough criticism against it. But with with the same argument one can oppose the statement it would have been clearly rejected, since it also received about as much support as criticism. I fully agree with Dan S here: The vote indicates a maybe, but not in this exact form, and this is just what I meant by draw all the time. I don't see any reason to discuss this either, since a discussion does not alter anything here. well, this is not an insurmountable hurdle, we should simply pay attention to how we precisely name those tags (e.g. the architectural element could be called roof_lantern). Sure, I agree. these terms IMHO don't fit well under the same key, lantern is a type of light defined by the design/construction, while warning and aviation are defined by the scope. Those were just quick ideas / making up examples. One can probably find better names for these objects, following the principle of carefully choosing as mentioned above. I would go for the established lamp_type as this is in use and has according values. AFAIK lamp_type is rather used as a sub-tag to highway=street_lamp and specifies the type of lantern (gaslight, electric...). Using this on its own in the form lamp_type=lantern would hopelessly mix up those different uses. See http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lamp_type#combinations for this. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSlcivAAoJEPvf9RrsekSykmcH/jqKrybkuqOAqYZJixn7E8gD yAcw6TlUlYPL9JI1jxmnSBpg2FepGjt/bof2TKdryORwSBdBivnTc++AC74brAs+ 7tXcQjpCGgXd6LL6f6yuPARGifXRFJ546bbU3aBKWwErjCf0V9ZByKw8p4ffIi9C iNXg+SKAU52GQZHTm7ByvQQXc8yfBEVER23mKSBq8g0Cb7fmYZaYSjN3o8MZTHjK AdywhcBXqqjOiveNl85JqlMd8N2K8hYEuVy/IDBQQlvYrNficsxhmF/Mmd4KT92G I1zdOved4jjeD7ECXlbYrAuBxAZCFW0td0SPk+uWHrw2OP6c+bsJOt4+MA3fwBs= =gllt -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] the proposal process
Sorry, that should have been: Note that earlier this month, I have merged the pages 'Creating a proposal' and 'Proposed features' into 'Proposal process', so you might also be interested in the history of these pages. -- Matthijs On 27 November 2013 10:22, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Hi Martin, It seems that user Fgnievinski split off the page from 'Proposed features': https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_featuresdiff=prevoldid=930880 Note that earlier this month, I have merged the pages 'Creating a proposal' and 'Creating a proposal' into 'Proposal process', so you might also be interested in the history of these pages. -- Matthijs On 27 November 2013 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: When looking for the history of the proposal process page I found it hard to find the evolution of this page before August 2013. Any hints where to look for it? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp
2013/11/27 Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de I would go for the established lamp_type as this is in use and has according values. AFAIK lamp_type is rather used as a sub-tag to highway=street_lamp and specifies the type of lantern (gaslight, electric...). Using this on its own in the form lamp_type=lantern would hopelessly mix up those different uses. This was a misunderstanding, my suggestion was to use lamp_type for lamp types (in reply to your suggested light:source I was pointing out that there is a used tag) and light_type for the kind of device (lantern in this example). IMHO it would not be desirable to use different keys for the same property according to the kind of device (i.e. a lantern and a street_lamp should have the same subtag to map the lamp type / light source). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
2013/11/26 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org The probably don't care where the pin is as long as it somehow increases their search engine ranking ;) I found a few of those. A travel agency adds a node to the destination, not where their office is. 2013/11/27 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk Ignoring the online businesses, there are plenty of real-world businesses that have been added without real tags, and iD doesn't exactly make it obvious that it's useful for a shop to have a shop tag. The main discussion area seems to be here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=5cbm6g9p0nsgu1ui19v8hmrf41topic=175900.0;all I agree, I try to fix those that I find. It's hard to make a tool that a user on his first and last try will get. We have to try though. 2013/11/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com online is very generic, my preference would be something slightly more specific like office=e-commerce or office=internet_service_provider, etc (still leaving a lot of room for subtags). I was hoping for a general tag that would indicate that something is more online than offline. But I guess that kind of generalization is not really needed and is hardly accurate. office=e-commerce sounds good. I'll start putting those on the nodes and see where it get us. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
offfice=... is a good key for a ground-truth feature, even if it operates in the cloud. Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com a écrit : 2013/11/26 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org The probably don't care where the pin is as long as it somehow increases their search engine ranking ;) I found a few of those. A travel agency adds a node to the destination, not where their office is. 2013/11/27 SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk Ignoring the online businesses, there are plenty of real-world businesses that have been added without real tags, and iD doesn't exactly make it obvious that it's useful for a shop to have a shop tag. The main discussion area seems to be here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=5cbm6g9p0nsgu1ui19v8hmrf41topic=175900.0;all I agree, I try to fix those that I find. It's hard to make a tool that a user on his first and last try will get. We have to try though. 2013/11/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com online is very generic, my preference would be something slightly more specific like office=e-commerce or office=internet_service_provider, etc (still leaving a lot of room for subtags). I was hoping for a general tag that would indicate that something is more online than offline. But I guess that kind of generalization is not really needed and is hardly accurate. office=e-commerce sounds good. I'll start putting those on the nodes and see where it get us. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Envoyé de mon téléphone Android avec K-9 Mail. Excusez la brièveté.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
Actually the problem is that most of these businesses adding themselves are doing more harm than good. 1. Many users copy data from Google - There was even a video on coinmap encouraging users to do so 2. There are many users who find the location via nominatim, which doesn't add accuracy to our geocoding, it just makes it worse 3. Many of the businesses are entered incorrectly. Overall, I wish coinmap had its own database. - Serge On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Openstreetmap has been contributing to the Bitcoin revolution with this map: http://coinmap.org/ the problem is that lots of online businesses want to get on the map, and I don't know what tags to suggest. Should we invent something like office=online? Then it could be further specified with online:shop=clothes, online=pizza_delivery, or something like that. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal - voting finished - man_made=lamp
Manuel Hohmann mhohm...@physnet.uni-hamburg.de wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 A draw means rejected as it isn't a majority for yes. A partial yes like an abstain counts as vote that isn't yes, so for practical reasons you can count this like a no. At least this is what the rules had been so far. A draw is a draw, it's not a majority for no either. You can count an abstain whatever you want, it neither yes nor no. Here we had a partial yes. And besides, as I explained before, I also took into account the comments and reasons for opposing in the decision to keep working on the proposal. To make it clear, I am not in general against tagging lights and lamps (besides those that already get tagged), but I also do not think that all kind of light emitting objects have necessarily to go under one and the same tag. Generally substituting one tag by requiring two tags isn't desirable (IMHO). The tag highway=street_lamp is widely used and there is (IMHO) no reason to believe a street light/lamp isn't part of a highway. You can see it as one or the other and apparently there are not so few mappers who see it as a usable tag. Yes, this is the main outcome of the voting, as I said. And this will be taken into account in the further work on this proposal. The discussions here and in the forum have shown that both opinions exist - - regarding street lamps as part of the highway or not. Given that there is already a tag for the (supposedly) most required thing in this field to be tagged, why not invent a (or more) new tag(s) for what remains and you want to tag? Of course one can do this as well. My aim was to unify the tagging of these objects, since they all generate light. This idea is not new - think of public_transport=stop_position, for example. But of course one can have different opinions, as always in OSM. And when inventing a new tag, why not do it right (i.e. with the correct terminology)? Just as there are different words in German (Leuchte, Strahler, Scheinwerfer, Fluter as opposed to Lampe), there are also in English. I was using the term that was attested to me by native speakers to be most commonly used, and also understandable to others. Many people, especially non-native speakers, might not even know the term light fitting, even though it's correct UK English. Why not e.g. use a tag floodlights for certain typology of lights, or lantern for another? This is also possible, provided that one can easily distinguish these topologies. As a remark, lantern was also on my list, but as I figured out, it usually refers to portable light sources. As an analogy, we also do not use highway=street, street=primary because the way stuff went has brought us this distinction already in the main tag, and someone now trying to reinvent this wheel would most probably fail. Of course, highway=* is a key that already indicates some type of way or related feature, so one can immediately specify the type of feature in the value. highway=street, street=primary would thus make no sense. This is different for man_made=*, which does not give much information on the type of object. One could of course also think of not using man_made at all, and introduce light=floodlights etc. as a new primary tag, in order to group light sources with a more unified tagging. But honestly I have no idea whether this would be better or worse. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJSlJ11AAoJEPvf9RrsekSyp6sIAJUD+bqj2t8h/Z2nZsO7mD1f TE/p4R8BuY5K0CN1vJvECS/gyfn4jD8g3vSHpJ3pQBDfEjncjr2o3zpZXtWD+bp+ WPfE1BXr9ZHqmMH9qqbYXsmPL3UWdFrugE2b3Ll7UhvLWLU0ZRG7NWi4Mm1atwUX Y1ia7ggiAv+qlg/lh2yreIXTjGyl3EY8EM56Xn2A76+DaM2vRNeuVbSFvgR2DJez C/4kpqEHVimiCsqCmlGnEjrC0642BkWuM/dghlgS4ZgFp4GY5vWTz/R0Bs5iJ3ee 7p+ZDMTlJ2mrKczL8BVuDDASZ167m8mTO1jC6ibFP0Ob39/Om6141iRHc+WblcQ= =Jw6I -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging In my personal experience, the same type of lamps used for street lighting are also used in many business and apartment parking lots, and even in the occasional back yard. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 11/26/13 4:13 PM, Yves wrote: Placing online businesses on a world map may be more tricky than you think ... yes. the concept of a geographic location is sometimes challenging. when the business is running a web store in the cloud and outsourcing the order fulfillment then it's hard to say exactly where they are on the map. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I am also a bit unclear why an online business would want to be tagged as such. You can't go to the physical site and make a purchase. We already have tags for marking the location of an office. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
On 11/27/2013 02:59 PM, Janko Mihelić wrote: I was hoping for a general tag that would indicate that something is more online than offline. But I guess that kind of generalization is not really needed and is hardly accurate. office=e-commerce sounds good. I'll start putting those on the nodes and see where it get us. Commerce, e-commerce... What is the difference nowadays ?Are there any activities left that do not have an online side ? Anyway, I have no opinion about office=* subclasses - but I do worry about POI that don't relate to an observable object in physical space. Office, warehouse, shop ? Let them tag it ! Fictional presence that is really about spamming location based searches ? Kill kill kill ! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
2013/11/27 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org Commerce, e-commerce... What is the difference nowadays ?Are there any activities left that do not have an online side ? I have a feeling you've got something there. office=commerce seems enough. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bitcoin and Online shops
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/11/27 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org Commerce, e-commerce... What is the difference nowadays ?Are there any activities left that do not have an online side ? I have a feeling you've got something there. office=commerce seems enough. The difference is that for OSM, we map feature we can see. We don't map PO Box address locations, for example. If a business has an office, then sure, map it as office=foo but it's not a shop. I think we need solutions to high density office mapping, though- and OSM as it is today is not a great fit. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
