Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

@Warin,

Thanks for your reply. While I may agree with you on some of this my
question has more to do with understanding the tagging scheme that's in
place and how it came to be there rather than trying to change it to
something different. For example, I agree "sells" would be a better tag
than "sale" but sale is already present in the JOSM preset.

Unifying the tagging of motorcycle shops with those for cars, bicycles,
etc. is certainly a worthwhile goal but it's beyond what I want to take on
at the moment.

I'm afraid the old saying about "too many cooks spoiling the broth" applies
in this case (and many others I'm sure).



On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/03/2016 12:23 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
>
> I recently discovered a preset in JOSM that should help in my work,
> shop=motorcycle (See:Presets/Transport/Motorcycle/Motorcycle Dealer in JOSM
> rel 9900). It is very detailed and would seem to cover every possible
> aspect of such shops from clothing and accessories to service. But it uses
> some tags and values that I've never seen and for which I could find no
> documentation.
>
> In addition to the established tag brand which defines the name of the
> vehicle's manufacturer, (brand=Yamaha, brand=Honda), brand as a value
> appears as an offering for several other tags. Here is a section of the Wiki
> page for shop=motorcycle
> 
>
> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>
>- *sale=yes/brand/used/no/...* - sells whole motorcycles
>- *rental=yes/brand/no/...* - motorcycle rental
>- *repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>- *safety_inspection=yes/no* - inspection
> of safety/emission
>regulation conformance
>- *parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - sells motorcycle parts
>- *clothes=yes/brand/no/...* - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>- *scooters=yes/no/only* - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful
>in Asia
>- *services=...* - other services this shop offers
>
>
> Note the tag "sale" which can take values of yes, no, or brand. I reckon
> it means what it says but "sale" seems a poor choice for a tag.  (Note too
> that the Preset does not offer "used" in the choices as the Wiki implies.)
> If the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag means the shop sells
> "whole motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of motorcycles) of a certain
> brand. Fine, but the brand tag in the main section of the preset already
> specifies that, doesn't it? Is it logical to expect a shop selling new
> Hondas to also sell pieces of Yamaha motorcycles?
>
> One could reasonably assume that "brand" in those other cases means
> clothing of a certain brand, parts of a certain brand, etc., but what is
> the value "oldtimer" supposed to indicate?
>
> Thanks for your help and comments.
>
>
>
> Most shops sell more than one brand of an item.
> And 'sale' is usually taken to be a special event where prices are lower.
> secondhand is already in the wiki
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand ... status= approved
> .. so you would assume it has been discussed here and voted on. Around June
> 2012.
> safety_inspection= ... see wiki amenity= vehicle_inspection
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvehicle_inspection
> oldtimer refers to older things.. usually no longer sold 'new' but either
> 'restored', 'used' etc. Example; vintage and veteran cars.
>
> Presently bicycle shops have a dedicated tagging scheme... are all shops
> to have there own individual and incompatible scheme? Or can we have ONE
> common scheme? Please?
>
> I would prefer
>
> sells:motorcycle:yamaha:honda=yes
> sells:motorcycle:parts:honda=yes
> sells:motorcycle:tyres:yes  !NOTE UK ENGLISH!
> sells:scooters:hysong:yes
> sells:motorcycle_clothing=yes
>
> Repair, maintain and service .. can all mean the same thing These can
> be a separate area..  a 'workshop' with a separate entry and separate
> reception.
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal about suffixed tags has been approved

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.03.2016 um 03:57 schrieb moltonel 3x Combo :
> 
> The fact that we don't know wether the extra name is an old_name or a
> loc_name or something else is independant of how the extra name was
> taged. The information is equally lacking from name_1, name=x;y, and
> alt_name. Do not shoot the name_1 messenger when it is just telling
> you that the mapper didn't have nuanced information about which
> context the extra name fits best in.


didn't you say before, name_n was for equally valid names? How do you 
distinguish names that are confirmed to be equally valid and bearing the same 
semantics from names where they are possibly not but the mapper didn't know?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Warin]

On 3/03/2016 12:23 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:


I recently discovered a preset in JOSM that should help in my work, 
shop=motorcycle (See:Presets/Transport/Motorcycle/Motorcycle Dealer in 
JOSM rel 9900). It is very detailed and would seem to cover every 
possible aspect of such shops from clothing and accessories to 
service. But it uses some tags and values that I've never seen and for 
which I could find no documentation.


In addition to the established tag brand which defines the name of the 
vehicle's manufacturer, (brand=Yamaha, brand=Honda), brand as a value 
appears as an offering for several other tags. Here is a section of 
the Wiki page for shop=motorcycle 



The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:

  * /sale=yes/brand/used/no/.../ - sells whole motorcycles
  * /rental=yes/brand/no/.../ - motorcycle rental
  * /repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/.../ - repairs / maintains motorcycles
  * /safety_inspection=yes/no/ - inspection
 of
safety/emission regulation conformance
  * /parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/.../ - sells motorcycle parts
  * /clothes=yes/brand/no/.../ - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
  * /scooters=yes/no/only/ - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful
in Asia
  * /services=.../ - other services this shop offers


Note the tag "sale" which can take values of yes, no, or brand. I 
reckon it means what it says but "sale" seems a poor choice for a tag. 
 (Note too that the Preset does not offer "used" in the choices as the 
Wiki implies.) If the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag 
means the shop sells "whole motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of 
motorcycles) of a certain brand. Fine, but the brand tag in the main 
section of the preset already specifies that, doesn't it? Is it 
logical to expect a shop selling new Hondas to also sell pieces of 
Yamaha motorcycles?


One could reasonably assume that "brand" in those other cases means 
clothing of a certain brand, parts of a certain brand, etc., but what 
is the value "oldtimer" supposed to indicate?


Thanks for your help and comments.




Most shops sell more than one brand of an item.
And 'sale' is usually taken to be a special event where prices are lower.
secondhand is already in the wiki 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand ... status= approved 
.. so you would assume it has been discussed here and voted on. Around 
June 2012.
safety_inspection= ... see wiki amenity= vehicle_inspection 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvehicle_inspection
oldtimer refers to older things.. usually no longer sold 'new' but 
either 'restored', 'used' etc. Example; vintage and veteran cars.


Presently bicycle shops have a dedicated tagging scheme... are all shops 
to have there own individual and incompatible scheme? Or can we have ONE 
common scheme? Please?


I would prefer

sells:motorcycle:yamaha:honda=yes
sells:motorcycle:parts:honda=yes
sells:motorcycle:tyres:yes  !NOTE UK ENGLISH!
sells:scooters:hysong:yes
sells:motorcycle_clothing=yes

Repair, maintain and service .. can all mean the same thing These 
can be a separate area..  a 'workshop' with a separate entry and 
separate reception.



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[Tagging] OpenStreetMap Data Contribution Study

[hall]

Hello,

Our names are Andrew Hall and Sarah McRoberts and we are Ph.D. students 
and researchers within GroupLens Research at the University of 
Minnesota. We are currently undertaking a study on data contribution 
within OpenStreetMap and would greatly appreciate any OpenStreetMap 
contributors who are willing to talk about their experiences. 
Specifically, we are interested in 1) contributors of any type of 
geographic map data to OpenStreetMap AND/OR 2) contributors to the 
OpenStreetMap wiki pages (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org). The interview 
is short and will definitely not take more than 60 minutes (probably 
closer to 30 minutes) and will be held by video-chat/voice-chat or 
phone. Participants will receive a $10 USD Amazon gift card. We would 
sincerely appreciate any volunteers. We would love to talk to you about 
OpenStreetMap! You can reach us at h...@cs.umn.edu or mcrob...@umn.edu.


Thank you,

Andrew and Sarah


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Re: [Tagging] Proposal about suffixed tags has been approved

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 25/02/2016, Hakuch  wrote:
>>> That is absoulutely no justification for your edits without asking the
>>> the list.
>>
>> I honestly believe I acted in the same way that you did (no accusation
>> of wrong-doing).
>
> sorry but that is is really far from truth. Before I did the changes,
> there was more than a month full of drafting a Proposal -> starting a
> RFC -> Voting. In the end of that process, we had a decision by voting
> 38:10.
>
> You cant compare this with you actions yesterday. You just ignored the
> proposal process and reverted the result just because you don't like the
> outcome.

The moral ground I'm standing on is that I was correcting the
erroneous conclusion that there was enough consensus to accept the
proposal. I know this looks like I'm pushing my singular viewpoint
against the community's, but there are a few points which should make
the current "official conclusion" feel uncomfortable, whatever your
personal preference on semicolon vs suffixes is.

In OSM we have to walk a difficult path between making the data
consumable without too many headaches and describing a complicated
world. Mappers have a lot of freedom and different solutions emerge.

For some choices, like jewellery vs jewelry, there's no value in
keeping both solutions so an expeditious decision is warranted.

For other choices like suffix vs semicolons, the list of pros and cons
prevents a clear winner from emerging. Luckily, both solutions can
coexist and there is no need to choose a winner. Actually, if a winner
is to be found, the community as a whole is certainly a better judge
than the tiny fraction of the community that we ([tagging] readers and
wiki editors) represent. Given both options, the community should
naturally (if slowly) converge to the supperior solution if it exists.
In a case like this, we'd need very strong arguments to say that a
specific popular solution should not be used...

...But those strong arguments were clearly lacking:
* Of the [tagging] participants who tackled the "semicolon vs suffix"
question directly (so not counting peripheral topics like the iD bug,
blanks and orderings, or comparison to lanes/opening_hours), many
(dare I say most ? in any case more than 20%) participants leaned
towards using the key rather than the value to encode multiple values.
* Various issues with semicolons that some consider show-stopers (like
litteral semicolons, or the 255 chars limit) were either ignored or
brushed aside as not relevant.
* The current usage statistics (hinting at the greater community's
opinion) that name_N is 10 to 20 time more popular than semicolons
[1], but this was again brushed aside (including the principle of
documenting current usage).



[1]: Using today's taginfo db dump:
sqlite> select key,count(*),sum(count_all) from tags where key =
'name_1' or key='name_2' or (value like '%;%' and (key='name' or
key='alt_name')) group by 1;
name_1|250686|810490
name_2|29521|65868
name|15211|29136
alt_name|7975|10897
You can argue about the flaws of this simplistic query, but this won't
change the general result.



On 25/02/2016, Hakuch  wrote:
> On 25.02.2016 01:37, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
>> Firstly, there is a difference between documenting current practices
>> and advising for one practice over another. I did my best to remain
>> factual and to document but not advise, even if I secretly wish that
>> we stoped using multiple schemes and converged on one that had less
>> flaws than the others.
>>
>> Secondly, while writing the MV page I did my best to summarize all the
>> opinions of the recent threads (even some I didn't fully agree with),
>> and my first email today was a way to ask people to join the
>> discussion.
>
> thats a problem of the wiki, that it is for doumenting as well as for
> advising. Thats a big problem for all unexperienced mappers and results
> in unsteady tagging. Thats why I ask you, to notice on the page that
> there are different positions. You even should link to the proposal
> because its also a document of the situation.

That's fair enough, any mention of the suffix and semicolon schemes
(for the name key as well as other keys) should also link to the
discussions, including the various proposals. I originally removed the
link to the "remove sufixed name-tags" proposal because it is IMHO
wrongly-accepted and because I was linking to the more factual "MV
tagging" page, but I'm happy to add links to the proposals and
discussions, as long as it is balanced.


>> If your proposal mentioned converting existing data as well as
>> removing its mentions from the wiki, it would have been more coherent.
>> Maybe I'm missreading things ?
>
> It is hard enough to do small steps :) Right, it would have been more
> coherent, but even much harder to get a workflow for this.

The proposal could simply have said that name_N should be phased out,
without planning the process. Without that, the proposal is just about
the wiki and not about the db, which is a bad idea. With

[Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

I recently discovered a preset in JOSM that should help in my work,
shop=motorcycle (See:Presets/Transport/Motorcycle/Motorcycle Dealer in JOSM
rel 9900). It is very detailed and would seem to cover every possible
aspect of such shops from clothing and accessories to service. But it uses
some tags and values that I've never seen and for which I could find no
documentation.

In addition to the established tag brand which defines the name of the
vehicle's manufacturer, (brand=Yamaha, brand=Honda), brand as a value
appears as an offering for several other tags. Here is a section of the Wiki
page for shop=motorcycle


The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:

   - *sale=yes/brand/used/no/...* - sells whole motorcycles
   - *rental=yes/brand/no/...* - motorcycle rental
   - *repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - repairs / maintains motorcycles
   - *safety_inspection=yes/no* - inspection
    of safety/emission
   regulation conformance
   - *parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - sells motorcycle parts
   - *clothes=yes/brand/no/...* - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
   - *scooters=yes/no/only* - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful in
   Asia
   - *services=...* - other services this shop offers


Note the tag "sale" which can take values of yes, no, or brand. I reckon it
means what it says but "sale" seems a poor choice for a tag.  (Note too
that the Preset does not offer "used" in the choices as the Wiki implies.)
If the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag means the shop sells
"whole motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of motorcycles) of a certain
brand. Fine, but the brand tag in the main section of the preset already
specifies that, doesn't it? Is it logical to expect a shop selling new
Hondas to also sell pieces of Yamaha motorcycles?

One could reasonably assume that "brand" in those other cases means
clothing of a certain brand, parts of a certain brand, etc., but what is
the value "oldtimer" supposed to indicate?

Thanks for your help and comments.

Cheers,
Dave
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Approved - Government offices

[Matthijs Melissen]

Dear all,

The proposal for office=government has been approved. The
proposal also proposed to mark the alternatives
amenity=public_building and office=administrative as 'discouraged':

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Government_offices

The proposal received 18 approving votes, and 5 opposing votes (78%
support). I would like to thank everybody for voting.

I already submitted a request at JOSM to drop support for the tag
amenity=public_building:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/12588

-- Matthijs

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[Tagging] sloped_curb, kerb and god knows what left in limbo ......

[Simon Poole]

Accidentally I noticed today that iD was suggesting a sloped_curb tag
for crossings, it piqued my curiosity a bit and it seems that we have
the situation now, that we have two different tagging systems in
moderate use (~20'000 occurrences of slopped_curb and  kerb each). But
no documentation for the one
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/dropped_kerb is
what you get redirected to for slopped_curb but the page does not have
any useful content and indication of which values should be used) and a
long abandoned proposal for the other
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/kerb

While the abandoned proposal seems to be more complete and I can't say
anything about the other variant because of the lacking documentation, I
don't really care either way, it would simply make easier if we could
come to some consensus on what the actual current state is and what the
preferred tagging is.


Simon



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