Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Il giorno 07 lug 2016, alle ore 16:51, Tijmen Stam  ha 
scritto:

>> The tag should be modeled on existing tags that already
>> handle that.
> 
> Except they don't.


official_name?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 07.07.2016 um 08:19 schrieb Colin Smale:
> You could use "long_name" to provide a version of the name which
> includes the discriminators 

In Germany there are ref_name=* and uic_name=* in use. (We have the same
problem)

Best regards

Michael




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Re: [Tagging] subway_entrance

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi Marc,

yes, wheelchair=yes is part of the official spec for
railway=subway_entrance.

I was just wondering whether other features could be indicated as well,
like presence of steps (at that entrance), etc.

Bjoern


On 7 July 2016 at 14:36, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> what about wheelmap.org [1] ? it shows whether an entrance is
> accessible for wheelchair users. Not everything is visible on osm.org,
> but sometimes you can use alternate OSM-based maps.
>
> m
>
> [1]
> http://wheelmap.org/en/map#/popup/1274040743?lat=51.50811726643938&lon=-0.1252618432044983&q=london&zoom=19
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Bjoern Hassler 
> wrote:
> > Certainly wheelchair=yes/no in conjunction with railway=subway_entrance
> is
> > used a lot in central London:
> > http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/hap
> >
> > Bjoern
> >
> > On 6 July 2016 at 15:33, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2016-07-06 at 16:23 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > sent from a phone
> >> >
> >> > Il giorno 06 lug 2016, alle ore 16:05, Bjoern Hassler  >> > l.com> ha scritto:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > However, how would you look for subway_entrances that are
> >> > > accessible? If the lift is mapped separately, it won't be mapped as
> >> > > a subway_entrance (as there should only be one subway_entrance per
> >> > > physical entrance)?
> >> >
> >> > I don't follow you here. If the lift leads to the subway, why
> >> > couldn't I apply subway entrance to it? Clearly it is a physical
> >> > entrance, isn't it?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > It would be much simpler to the map users (e.g. via OSMAND) to view
> >> > > accessible entrances as a single POI. Extracting "subway_entrance +
> >> > > nearby elevator (with the function of accessing the subway)" seems
> >> > > like an error prone task.
> >> >
> >> > if there are only steps, the entrance isn't accessible to
> >> > wheelchairs. See above for the lift
> >> >
> >> A subway entrance normally leads into a ticket hall where there are
> >> machines to buy tickets, the barriers and then the lift and/or stairs
> >> are beyond those.
> >>
> >> Unless you are going to start indoor mapping the barriers then
> >> stairs=yes/no, lift=yes/no make perfect sense on the entrance.
> >>
> >> Entrances also need opening hours, some are not open at weekends or
> >> late in the evening.
> >>
> >> Phil (trigpoint)
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Tijmen Stam]

>> On Jul 7, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
>>
>> No, that's not at all what I mean!
>>
>> It's the place the stop is _in_.
>
> Yea, I know.
>
> But it is the same idea : turn here for Los Angeles.
>
> Get off here for downtown los angeles.

Either we don't understand or we don't agree, but no, it's not the same idea.

> Maybe the exit signs that list the road, exit number *and* what town the
> exit is for is a better example - all of it is additional "for location"
> information. The tag should be modeled on existing tags that already
> handle that.

Except they don't.
For example: Utrecht is a large city (by Dutch standards). One of the main
destinations (traffic-wise) is the "Veemarkt" (Livestock Market).

Most motorists by now know they are in or near Utrecht, so the exit is
only labeled "Livestock Market / City Centre". No mention of the
"placename" Utrecht, road numbers or whatever. Just destinations and the
exit number.
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1116916,5.1491616,3a,75y,200.51h,81.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbwD4BSWCD9eYuwTch0tj1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Again, it's the place the stop is _in_ according to the bus company, which
_might_ or _might not_ be the same as the one it is in by administrative
division.
Then there is the problem which administrative level to choose. Is the bus
stop next to my house in "Bijlmer", "Zuidoost", "Amsterdam", "Amsterdam",
"Stadsregio Amsterdam", "Metropoolregio Amsterdam", "Noord-Holland",
"Nederland" or "Europe"?
A road is in all of these at the same time, but the name of the bus stop
isn't equal to all of these at the same time.

So I don't see the similarity in idea here.

Tijmen/IIVQ


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Re: [Tagging] subway_entrance

[Marc Gemis]

what about wheelmap.org [1] ? it shows whether an entrance is
accessible for wheelchair users. Not everything is visible on osm.org,
but sometimes you can use alternate OSM-based maps.

m

[1] 
http://wheelmap.org/en/map#/popup/1274040743?lat=51.50811726643938&lon=-0.1252618432044983&q=london&zoom=19


On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Bjoern Hassler  wrote:
> Certainly wheelchair=yes/no in conjunction with railway=subway_entrance is
> used a lot in central London:
> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/hap
>
> Bjoern
>
> On 6 July 2016 at 15:33, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2016-07-06 at 16:23 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > sent from a phone
>> >
>> > Il giorno 06 lug 2016, alle ore 16:05, Bjoern Hassler > > l.com> ha scritto:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > However, how would you look for subway_entrances that are
>> > > accessible? If the lift is mapped separately, it won't be mapped as
>> > > a subway_entrance (as there should only be one subway_entrance per
>> > > physical entrance)?
>> >
>> > I don't follow you here. If the lift leads to the subway, why
>> > couldn't I apply subway entrance to it? Clearly it is a physical
>> > entrance, isn't it?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > It would be much simpler to the map users (e.g. via OSMAND) to view
>> > > accessible entrances as a single POI. Extracting "subway_entrance +
>> > > nearby elevator (with the function of accessing the subway)" seems
>> > > like an error prone task.
>> >
>> > if there are only steps, the entrance isn't accessible to
>> > wheelchairs. See above for the lift
>> >
>> A subway entrance normally leads into a ticket hall where there are
>> machines to buy tickets, the barriers and then the lift and/or stairs
>> are beyond those.
>>
>> Unless you are going to start indoor mapping the barriers then
>> stairs=yes/no, lift=yes/no make perfect sense on the entrance.
>>
>> Entrances also need opening hours, some are not open at weekends or
>> late in the evening.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[John Willis]

 

> On Jul 7, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Tijmen Stam  wrote:
> 
> No, that's not at all what I mean!
> 
> It's the place the stop is _in_.

Yea, I know. 

But it is the same idea : turn here for Los Angeles. 

Get off here for downtown los angeles. 

Maybe the exit signs that list the road, exit number *and* what town the exit 
is for is a better example - all of it is additional "for location" 
information. The tag should be modeled on existing tags that already handle 
that. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Jo]

Did you have a look at that sketch line diagram?

It looks like what you'd find in the bus timetable guide. True, it's not
what you'll find on most of the flags in the field.

Here is another line that passes 3 times by a stop called Oud-Station (that
meanse former railway station):
http://overpass-api.de/api/sketch-line?network=DLVB&ref=318&operator=

It is confusing and people actually do get off at the wrong one. I told
them get of at Bertem Oud-Station, which is the third one and the got off
at the second one 5km too early.


It's not overly hard to change the naming of those stops in Belgium over
the coming months/years. I prefer more verbose naming where this is more
practical. To me it also helps when working with those routes in the
relation editor, but if I'm alone with that opinion, so be it.

Polyglot


2016-07-07 10:10 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Jo  wrote:
> >
> > And I know it's possible to deduce those village names from the
> geometries,
> > but we don't all have geodatabase functionality available all of the
> time,
> > to make that calculation over and over, and over again.
>
> We do not repeat the name of the town in front of each street name, do
> we ? Maybe there is someone without a geodatabase that needs to know
> that...
>
> OSM is a geodatabase, and when you do not use it like that you will
> not have all the functionality a geodatabase offers. Should we repeat
> all info all the time for this group of data consumers ?
> I hope not.
>
> regardrs
>
> m
>
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Jo  wrote:
>
> And I know it's possible to deduce those village names from the geometries,
> but we don't all have geodatabase functionality available all of the time,
> to make that calculation over and over, and over again.

We do not repeat the name of the town in front of each street name, do
we ? Maybe there is someone without a geodatabase that needs to know
that...

OSM is a geodatabase, and when you do not use it like that you will
not have all the functionality a geodatabase offers. Should we repeat
all info all the time for this group of data consumers ?
I hope not.

regardrs

m

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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 07 lug 2016, alle ore 09:14, Tijmen Stam  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Another example near me is where the two stops are in different 
> municipalities, despite that both stops are called placename Diemen by the 
> transport company.


would this be resolvable with place polygons? Or is it just the transport 
company  that finds it makes sense to use this structure?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 07 lug 2016, alle ore 08:27, Marc Gemis  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> put
> some others thought it would be nice to have the same name as in the
> timetable books.


while I'm not sure you can legally do this, a natural tag to put this would be 
official_name (or even timetable_name or alt_name if it isn't official)

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Jo]

The reason why I propose to add the placename as part of the name, is that
it gives a feedback about the correct order of the stops:

http://overpass-api.de/api/sketch-line?network=DLVB&ref=5&operator=

On the second line of that diagram, you can see:

Haasrode Kerk
Haasrode Kerkstraat
Blanden Kerk

So two times a church very near to one another. Without the placename this
would be:

..
Kerk
Kerkstraat
Kerk
..

So which church is served first now?

And I know it's possible to deduce those village names from the geometries,
but we don't all have geodatabase functionality available all of the time,
to make that calculation over and over, and over again.

We could put it in a separate tag, but what would that tag be then? not
addr: as that will give warnings in the validator, if I'm not mistaken. Not
contact: either. is_in? I thought we were trying to eradicate that one.

Polyglot

2016-07-07 9:14 GMT+02:00 Tijmen Stam :

> On 07-07-16 08:15, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 07/07/2016 08:04 AM, Tijmen Stam wrote:
>>
>>> It's the place the stop is _in_.
>>>
>>
>> We usually resolve such issues by looking at the surrounding
>> administrative area polygons. You will see that, for example, we have
>> long since stopped tagging a village with
>> "is_in=CountyA,StateB,CountryC" because the geocoder can easily
>> determine this information from the admin boundaries. The same can be
>> done for public transport stops.
>>
>> Or are you saying that the public transport company might use a
>> different name for the administrative entity than can be deduced from
>> the admin boundary?
>>
>
> Yes!
> As an example:
> The bus stop called "Veenendaal, Station de Klomp" (placename: Veenendaal,
> Stopname "Station de Klomp")
> is situated in the Hamlet of De Klomp, which is in an entirely different
> province than the city=municipality of Veenendaal.
>
> See <
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/271169#map=18/52.04610/5.57297&layers=T>
> for the stop, zoom out to see the municipality of Veenendaal in orange and <
> http://connexxion.nl/dienstregeling/halte?id=50810252&lijn=E080&richting=2&datum=07072016>
> is the bus company's stop.
>
> (Note that the bus stop's name is not the same as the train station's name
> because there are more train stations in and around Veenendaal
> The train station called "Veenendaal-De Klomp" is called Veenendaal
> because it serves that city, despite the station being in hamlet "De Klomp")
>
> Another example near me is where the two stops are in different
> municipalities, despite that both stops are called placename Diemen by the
> transport company.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Additions to public_transport scheme

[Tijmen Stam]

On 07-07-16 08:15, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 07/07/2016 08:04 AM, Tijmen Stam wrote:

It's the place the stop is _in_.


We usually resolve such issues by looking at the surrounding
administrative area polygons. You will see that, for example, we have
long since stopped tagging a village with
"is_in=CountyA,StateB,CountryC" because the geocoder can easily
determine this information from the admin boundaries. The same can be
done for public transport stops.

Or are you saying that the public transport company might use a
different name for the administrative entity than can be deduced from
the admin boundary?


Yes!
As an example:
The bus stop called "Veenendaal, Station de Klomp" (placename: 
Veenendaal, Stopname "Station de Klomp")
is situated in the Hamlet of De Klomp, which is in an entirely different 
province than the city=municipality of Veenendaal.


See 
 
for the stop, zoom out to see the municipality of Veenendaal in orange 
and 
 
is the bus company's stop.


(Note that the bus stop's name is not the same as the train station's 
name because there are more train stations in and around Veenendaal
The train station called "Veenendaal-De Klomp" is called Veenendaal 
because it serves that city, despite the station being in hamlet "De Klomp")


Another example near me is where the two stops are in different 
municipalities, despite that both stops are called placename Diemen by 
the transport company.



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