Re: [Tagging] Disaster response

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Apr 2017, at 21:34, Micah Cochran  wrote:
> 
> Existing features that are slightly similar:
> 1. amenity=shelter with  shelter_type=weather_shelter is for a wilderness hut 
> to get out of the rain or a thunderstorm.
> 2. amenity=social_facility + social_facility=shelter, which is a shelters for 
> the homeless, refugees, and domestic violence cases. 


there is also a property called "shelter", typically associated to bus stops 
(i.e. although it is not explicitly written it is to be read as shelter from 
the rain + not too strong wind): 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Ashelter

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 11:21 schrieb John Willis:

If I search for a supermarket and you send me to a 7-11, you failed.

Post offices have different scopes in different places, ways we 
usually separate by tag, because we separate "duckiness" by tag. This 
varies by region, so we need a way to represent both, and we have 
existing tags as well.
[...] This is not something left to "operator". Brand is for 
separating similar items - a Burger King vs a McDonalds - not to 
separate steakhouses from a butcher shop. We are deciding where to 
draw the lines on scope, like convenience stores, markets, 
supermarkets, and malls.


I partly agree but when I tag Walmart or Trader Joe's as a supermarket's 
brand that carries a clear expectation towards the assortment of the store.



The sticky point seems to be that because nationalized post services 
and commercial courier services are available in different places 
*beyond* the traditional offices - buying stamps at a gas station, box 
shops that ship via post and courier systems, etc, that the "amenity" 
of a location that offers post/courier service is blurred in many 
places, or the post''s importance in some places has dwindled, 
relegating it to be a courier. We should be figuring out how to handle 
assigning the "amenity" of those services (similar to how a hotel has 
a workout room, but that doesn't make the hotel a gym) to other kinds 
of businesses, in a way where we can have multiple values. A hotel has 
parking, a pool, gym, etc, but it is foremost a "hotel" with various 
amenities. Having a dedicated courier or post office tag isn't so much 
of an issue - in many places with a traditional post system, it is 
still different enough to warrant separate tags. it's adding these 
courier/post options to other businesses or shops that needs to be 
worked out. Mashing post offices and courier services together is not 
going to solve that issue nor improve OSM tagging in any appreciable way.


[...]
Having a tagging system to add that onto another shop sounds like that 
is what people are looking for, if I understand correctly.


At least that is part of it. Along the convenience store supermarket 
analogy maybe we need something like the amenity=post_office for the 
traditional ones and an amenity=shipping_services (just a working title) 
for everything else, not just couriers. That would work at least for the 
dedicated shops. For the in-shop services provided in kiosks etc. it 
might be a different tagging.
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 10:29 schrieb Marc Gemis:
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Tobias Wrede  
wrote:

With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers
registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass 
mail
and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post 
office".

amenity=courier ; brand = ...
or
amenity=postal_office ; brand=...


Yes. But which?

What I want to say is that simply introducing a *=courier  along the 
already existing amenity=post_office opens more questions for me than it 
answers.


Don't get me wrong. I am totally in favor of a tag I can attach to a UPS 
store or a kiosk shipping DHL parcels. I just think that leaving 
post_office as it is and simply adding a courier tag ignores the 
situation of changing ways theses services are delivered today.


Tobi

resending to the list. darned. How do I get Thunderbird to answer to the 
list automatically?



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Re: [Tagging] about landcover/landcover=grass

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Apr 2017, at 07:06, muzirian  wrote:
> 
> Doesnt surface=grass work?


yes, it "works", but isn't typically considered a feature but a property, I 
would still expect that some other tag says what it "is"


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:17 AM, Tobias Wrede  wrote:
> With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers
> registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass mail
> and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post office".

amenity=courier ; brand = ...
or
amenity=postal_office ; brand=...

+ website to see which services they offer at which prices and under
which conditions.

The details you mention fall in the same category as a product price
list of supermarkets or any other shop and do not belong in OSM IMHO.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Apr 2017, at 05:13, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> I still believe that for the feature at hand it is enough to have
> amenity=courier, just so we can distinguish it from the traditional
> postal_office.


I also believe we should have a tagging scheme for various kinds of couriers, 
but I don't think the presented proposal was sufficient for this, as did a 
majority of voting mappers.


> Do we need subtags for courier yet ? I do not think so.
> 
> We are mapping supermarkets/convenience stores which offer different
> products/services for more than 10 years without subtags to
> differentiate between hypermarkets, discounters, supermarkets that
> offer a services of a licensed butcher, etc.


it would also be nice to have these details codified, my guess is locals don't 
need it because they know what to expect by name and brand, so this wasn't 
dealt with yet. Generally it isn't an argument to point at other 
insufficiencies.

10 years ago, the situation was different, if food retail would be proposed 
now, people would likely request a more refined scheme.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "Feature Proposal - RFC - (office=courier)"

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 25.04.2017 um 05:13 schrieb Marc Gemis:

I still believe that for the feature at hand it is enough to have
amenity=courier, just so we can distinguish it from the traditional
postal_office. Do we need subtags for courier yet ? I do not think so.

We are mapping supermarkets/convenience stores which offer different
products/services for more than 10 years without subtags to
differentiate between hypermarkets, discounters, supermarkets that
offer a services of a licensed butcher, etc. Any attempt on adding
detail to this was seen as unneeded for OSM, yet we demand this level
of detail from a 1.0 proposal for courier services ?

If we are mapping supermarkets with different services and that is 
enough why do we need to distinguish between a "traditional post office" 
and a courier?


From reading the posts to this list I understand countries like Japan 
and UK still have a very distinct separation between the two. OK. If 
there is the Royal Mail and the Japan Post they can be tagged as 
operator or brand to make that clear then in my opinion.


But in many countries, including Germany there are so many shades of 
gray between a full service traditional post office and a pure parcel 
drop-off/pick up service I wouldn't know how to draw the line. All the 
"traditional" post offices are couriers as well. And they are banks 
("Postbank" in Germany, which belongs to Deutsche Bank nowadays). On the 
extreme side there are offices of different postal services fully 
dedicated to letter related services, there are couriers (various 
companies) and there are Postbank "financial centers". And then there is 
everything between, as stand-alone shops or embedded into a convenience 
store, kiosk, bakery etc.


With this proposal how would I tag an amenity that sells stamps, offers 
registered mail, receives parcels but does not accept commercial mass 
mail and does not offer banking services? It's not a "traditional post 
office".


Tobi

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