Re: [Tagging] religious place for any religion/multiple religions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:04:21 +0100
Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>  From my perspective, Mateusz, go ahead as you said.

I created https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:religion%3Dmultifaith
and added some infor to main religion page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Religions=168008=1555028=1554792

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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 12:04 AM, marc marc 
wrote:

> Le 19. 01. 18 à 23:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> > 1. A lighthouse is a usually tall building or tower that has a lamp at
> > the top.
>
> has or had
>

Irrespective of technical definitions, I think you'll find that most people
think a lighthouse
has a keeper dwelling within.  Those with slightly more knowledge
understand that many
lighthouses have been automated and no longer have keepers.  I think you'll
find that
most people would think the following things characteristic of a lighthouse:

1) Has a light at the top.  Not necessarily working.  Not necessarily with
any lamp
remaining.  But it has visible glass at the top which is (or was) there for
a light to
shine through.

2) Is large enough that it is capable of allowing at least one person to
reside within
even if nobody lives there now.

3) Is circular (or nearly circular) in plan view.  Other shapes are
possible, but circular is
the one most familiar to them.

That, I think, is pretty much how most people's minds work.  Show them a
photo of
such a structure (with the photo taken in daylight) and they'll identify it
as a
lighthouse.  If you then say it's been automated, they'll still say
lighthouse (for lack
of anything else to call it).  If you tell them it no longer operates
they'll say it WAS
a lighthouse and still identify it as a lighthouse.  If you mark something
on a map as
a lighthouse then that's the type of structure they'll be looking for.
They'll be looking
for that because most of them (at least those in the UK)  will have seen a
seaside
postcard featuring a lighthouse that looks like that.

Can I back that up?  Yep.  I just did a google image search for
lighthouse.  The
results weren't affected by any previous search I've done because it's the
first
time in my life I've used google to search for lighthouse.  Google's image
classifier
is based in large part upon users playing a "game with a purpose" that
presents
them with randomly-chosen images and they describe what's in the image.
Those
results are based on what people think a lighthouse looks like.  You can
see from
the results that most photos were taken in daylight and there's no way of
knowing
if the lighthouse was manned or had a working light.

Having said all that, I'll give my conclusion.  Any tagging that does not
conform
to user expectations will be misapplied by taggers and misread by
end-users, no
matter what the wiki has to say about it. If it looks like a lighthouse
(see google
images) then it's a lighthouse.  Whether it functions as a major light,
minor light,
beacon or doesn't function at all is for other tagging to describe.

 --
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[marc marc]

Le 19. 01. 18 à 23:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> 1. A lighthouse is a usually tall building or tower that has a lamp at 
> the top.

has or had
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 20 January 2018 at 08:18, Malcolm Herring  wrote:

> I think from all the cases presented in this thread, we could perhaps
> frame two broader definitions:
>
> 1. A lighthouse is a building that has a lamp room at the top.
>
> 2. A beacon is a mast surmounted by a light.
>

Pretty good, but I'd modify them slightly :-)

1. A lighthouse is a usually tall building or tower that has a lamp at the
top.

2. A beacon is a short mast surmounted by a light.
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Malcolm Herring]

I think from all the cases presented in this thread, we could perhaps 
frame two broader definitions:


1. A lighthouse is a building that has a lamp room at the top.

2. A beacon is a mast surmounted by a light.


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Re: [Tagging] religious place for any religion/multiple religions

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 19.01.2018 19:37, marc marc wrote:

Le 19. 01. 18 à 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :

There are religious places that are not for any specific religion
I would expect that religion=multifaith is used for the first purpose.


in this case, why adding a "fake" religious ? if it's not related to a
specific religion, don't add a specific religion value :)
imho religion=multifaith is a mistake.


No I don't see it as a mistake. It is not a fake religion, it is an unambiguous catchword. "multi*" 
is used in OSM for facilities that serve an unspecific number of different purposes, sport=multi is 
another example.

For the religion case, it was discussed on this list already [1].

religion=multifaith is used already nearly 400x, Mateusz was not proposing it, he was just about to 
refine the definition.



There may be also place used by some set of religions.
I would expect that ;-separated list would be used for the second
purpose.
; separation is not mentioned at all at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion


all tag in osm could use ";" as separator.
not sure it's needed to copy/past the same sentence everywhere.
but I'm not against it.


There are some cases with 2-3 dedicated religions where the semicolon system is already being used. 
They are as rare as such institutions are. Clarifying this specific situation does not mean to copy 
that everywhere.



if these cases are frequent, another solution is to use the system
religion:value=yes/no


Apparently they are infrequent, thus semicolon is better than value-keys.

From my perspective, Mateusz, go ahead as you said.

--
tom

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/020862.html

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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Jan 2018, at 03:16, Andrew Davidson  wrote:
> 
> Don't be too sure about that. I thought that we could all agree that a 
> lighthouse had some thing to do with light and houses, but it turns out 
> that's not an universally held opinion.


rather than light and houses it’s a house for the light


> "A tower that emits (or emitted) a light signal assisting navigation on sea."
> 
> which is what is in your photo above.


I would not have considered this structure a tower, but maybe in English the 
word can be used for a greater variety of things


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Surface value for irregular, flat stones with variable gaps

[Fernando Trebien]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 8:44 AM, althio  wrote:
 I would just add
> - flagstone: flat stone slab (taginfo 3 uses)

There are actually 23 uses of surface=flag and 6 uses of
surface=flagstones. Currently, I think they would be mapped as
surface=paving_stones because they are wide and very flat, despite
having larger gaps between the stones (but narrower than typical
sett).

They are quite common in Brazilian patios and sidewalks too, even
though they are often the "crazy paving" type. [1][2][3]

[1] http://www.pavingexpert.com/crazypav.htm
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_paving
[3] http://www.pavingexpert.com/flags_driveways01.htm

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."

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Re: [Tagging] religious place for any religion/multiple religions

[marc marc]

Le 19. 01. 18 à 14:40, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> There are religious places that are not for any specific religion
> I would expect that religion=multifaith is used for the first purpose.

in this case, why adding a "fake" religious ? if it's not related to a 
specific religion, don't add a specific religion value :)
imho religion=multifaith is a mistake.

> There may be also place used by some set of religions.
> I would expect that ;-separated list would be used for the second
> purpose.
> ; separation is not mentioned at all at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion

all tag in osm could use ";" as separator.
not sure it's needed to copy/past the same sentence everywhere.
but I'm not against it.
it also make request very hard.
if these cases are frequent, another solution is to use the system 
religion:value=yes/no
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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2018-01-19 at 10:49 +, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> I think the border between lighthouses and beacons can only be fuzzy,
> we can never make a clear line. We can have a few pointers like
> "living quarters, big in size", but nothing set in stone. And that is
> ok because their purpose is the same, so some overlaping is not a
> problem. But I believe we do want to differentiate between this:

Lighthouses also flash, or at least the lens rotates giving each a
unique signature from which they can be identified by ships.


Beacons will tend to give a steady light.
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[Tagging] religious place for any religion/multiple religions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

There are religious places that are not for any specific religion (for
example universal "place of contemplation" at some airports or place of
worship at cemetery, possible to be used for any funeral-related
religious ceremony)

There may be also place used by some set of religions.

I would expect that religion=multifaith is used for the first purpose.

I would expect that ;-separated list would be used for the second
purpose.

But religion=multifaith is documented on wiki only as "Multiple
religions" on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion what is
not clear.

; separation is not mentioned at all at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion

I plan on 

- properly documenting religion=multifaith as described above
- document ;-separated values as acceptable for religion tag and
  recommended if object is really shared by multiple religions

Is there anything wrong with that?

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Re: [Tagging] Difference between lighthouses and beacons

[Janko Mihelić]

I think the border between lighthouses and beacons can only be fuzzy, we
can never make a clear line. We can have a few pointers like "living
quarters, big in size", but nothing set in stone. And that is ok because
their purpose is the same, so some overlaping is not a problem. But I
believe we do want to differentiate between this:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/44263014.jpg

and this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Buoy_seal.jpg/250px-Buoy_seal.jpg

We have seamark tags that only look at their light and its properties, but
the man_made tag can look at the structure and how it looks and feels.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

[OSMDoudou]

Indeed. The physical perimeter of the shops is very useful information. There 
is no reason to delete it.

-Original Message-
From: "Mateusz Konieczny" 
Sent: ‎19-‎01-‎18 08:56
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to tag shop areas in a shopping mall ?

With areas already mapped there is no reason to do that.


On 19 Jan 2018 8:54 a.m., "Mateusz Konieczny"  wrote:

Yes, just move tags from nodes to areas, delete invalid building tags and no 
longer necessary nodes.


On 18 Jan 2018 9:36 p.m., "Tobias Knerr"  wrote:

On 17.01.2018 23:16, OSMDoudou wrote:
> There is a shopping mall here [1] for which a mapper detailed the inside
> shops with a node for the "identity" and an area for the "physical
> perimeter" of the shop inside the mall. [...]
> Can you suggest tagging improvements ?

My suggestion (based on Simple Indoor Tagging¹) is to tag the areas with
their shop tag, level, and and other attributes such as name. So you get
a closed way with some basic tags, for example:

name = Jack & Jones
shop = clothes
level = 0

There's no reason to keep the nodes around once you have mapped the
shops as areas, so move all other tags such as opening hours to the area
instead.

At this point, you have a perfectly valid representation of the mall, so
you can stop here if you want. But if you're interested in adding more
details, there's a lot of possibilities: Add indoor=room or indoor=area
tags to the shop areas (depending on whether they're fully enclosed with
walls or not), and add walls (indoor=wall), corridors (indoor=corridor),
doors, elevators, staircases and so on.

Yours,
Tobias

¹ https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Indoor_Tagging

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