Re: [Tagging] AutoEdit rename roof:slope:direction to roof:direction

[Marc Gemis]

There was someone complaining about this on the OpenStreetMap channel
in Telegram. I've pointed them to this discussion.

regards

m


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 5:06 PM, User Rebo  wrote:
> Thank you Marc for your awesome work!
>
> It looks good and think it hasen't any objections yet :D
> I'll try to call taggers attention, which still use the old tag.
>
> Best regards,
> Rebo
>
> Am 19.02.2018 um 01:29 schrieb marc marc:
>>
>> the first part is done
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56476192
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56476241
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marc
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Proposed features - RFC 2 - Pressurized waterways

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

2018-02-21 17:25 GMT+01:00 Kevin Kenny :

> I think you're right. The Aqua Marcia, Aqua Ano Vetus, Aqua Anio
> Novus, and Aqua Claudia were all known as 'aqueducts' and were systems
> that were tens of km, in canals where possible, but mostly in
> underground conduits. There were pressurized syphons for valley
> crossings. Only the terminal portions of the aqueducts, as they
> approached the City, or crossings of deep valleys, were on arcades -
> but these make the tourist pictures, so people get the incorrect
> impression that 'aqueduct' is synonymous with 'arcade'.
>

This sounds to be an enough justification to don't use the aqueduct term,
thank you Kevin

The proposal is for now in its final version, with various key points :
- waterway=pressurised to make a continuation of rivers in pipelines,
tunnels and natural caves
- tunnel=flooded to make a distinguish between human accessible and flooded
tunnels in operation
- A more wide tagging with usage=* for tunnels, canals, bridges as to take
advantage of pipelines/railway tagging
- No more cluttering of waterway key with spillways (moved to usage=*)
according to comments

The table in this chapter summarize the need of a waterway value, among
other schematics and pictures
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Hydropower_water_supplies#Pressurised_waterway_.28pipe_flow_only.29

No better terminology than pressurised has risen so far
Aqueduct is not properly a building but a system, Canal have to stay
dedicated to free flow streams outside and inside tunnels
River, Stream can't be used in man made structures since they are currently
dedicated to natural flows.

Without further comments a second vote can begin shortly, stay tuned :)

All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Marc Gemis]

For industrial size there is the general man_made=works + product = 


m.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Johnparis  wrote:
> Yes, it's certainly in general use. And its page marks "shop=printing" as a
> tagging error.
>
> So I decided to read the documentation about shop vs amenity, and apparently
> some shops are marked as amenities if they are useful for tourists, which I
> guess a pharmacy is and a chemist isn't.
>
> And estate agents are offices not shops. Good.
>
> The shop=printing discussion page explains why that tag isn't a good idea
> either. Basically the distinction needs to be drawn between wholesale and
> retail (copyshop) printing. I'd guess that shop=copy_shop covers the case
> where Martin proposed shop=printing_service. As for the industrial-strength
> version, I don't know.
>
> The shop=copy_shop page also has a fairly large menu of service choices,
> including press, prepress, print, ... I pretty much copied that for the
> (approved) amenity=internet_cafe proposal. Not sure if the tourist interest
> is high enough for internet_cafe to be an amenity rather than a shop (I'd
> say yes), but in any case it was approved as an amenity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> > I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described them as
>> > "crappy little shops".
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop
>>
>> it's more than a proposal with more than ca 14.500 uses:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Johnparis]

fyi, I looked at the 100-odd Cartridge World shops around the globe. They
are mostly listed as shops, with the most popular being:

computer 25
stationery 15
printer_ink 9

No ringing endorsement there.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:53 PM, John Freed 
wrote:

> i see several amenity=recycling items with recycling:printer_cartridges.
> I'm guessing, however, that those are recycling centers rather than refill
> shops.
>
> and 69 shop=printer_ink
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:40 PM, Fredrik  wrote:
>
>> On 27/02/2018 14:14, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> >> I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described them as
>> >> "crappy little shops".
>> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop
>> > it's more than a proposal with more than ca 14.500 uses:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop
>> So _probably_ those shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses)
>> and craft=print_shop (119) should be a shop=copyshop?
>>
>> And the printer_ink/toner/cartridge refill-shops is something else
>> entirely?
>>
>> -- Fredrik
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Johnparis]

Yes, it's certainly in general use. And its page marks "shop=printing" as a
tagging error.

So I decided to read the documentation about shop vs amenity, and
apparently some shops are marked as amenities if they are useful for
tourists, which I guess a pharmacy is and a chemist isn't.

And estate agents are offices not shops. Good.

The shop=printing discussion page explains why that tag isn't a good idea
either. Basically the distinction needs to be drawn between wholesale and
retail (copyshop) printing. I'd guess that shop=copy_shop covers the case
where Martin proposed shop=printing_service. As for the industrial-strength
version, I don't know.

The shop=copy_shop page also has a fairly large menu of service choices,
including press, prepress, print, ... I pretty much copied that for the
(approved) amenity=internet_cafe proposal. Not sure if the tourist interest
is high enough for internet_cafe to be an amenity rather than a shop (I'd
say yes), but in any case it was approved as an amenity.







On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> > I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described them as
> > "crappy little shops".
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop
>
> it's more than a proposal with more than ca 14.500 uses:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Fredrik]

On 27/02/2018 14:14, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described them as
>> "crappy little shops".
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop
> it's more than a proposal with more than ca 14.500 uses:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop
So _probably_ those shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses)
and craft=print_shop (119) should be a shop=copyshop?

And the printer_ink/toner/cartridge refill-shops is something else entirely?

-- Fredrik


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Marc Gemis]

> I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described them as
> "crappy little shops".
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop

it's more than a proposal with more than ca 14.500 uses:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Re: "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Johnparis]

Interesting. I've often wondered what the distinction is supposed to be
between shop and amenity.

To me, a shop is an establishment open to the public that sells goods. In
other words, I enter, I pay money, I leave with something.

An amenity is an establishment open to the public that offers services. So
a restaurant, for instance, is an amenity, because I'm not going there to
buy food (to take home to prepare, that would be a grocery), but rather I
am paying for the service of food preparation (on site). I'm not leaving
with anything (other than a sense of satisfaction.)

So, your definition of shop as a business offering goods or services for
sale is interesting to me, and I wonder how it comports with actual OSM
usage. In any case, the distinction seems rather arbitrary in practice.

For instance, there was a debate about whether shop=vacant makes any sense.
I think it does, but "shop" would then need to include any storefront --
that is, the physical (mappable) attribute is more important than the
(transient) service or goods being offered.

Of course there are also legacy tags. I never understood, for instance, why
a pharmacy is an amenity and a chemist is a shop. I'd think both are shops.
(I enter a pharmacy, hand over my prescription and money, and leave with my
medication. A shop.)

Similarly (and I see this was discussed at one point) an estate agent is,
well, an agent, for either a buyer or a seller of real estate, and
therefore isn't a shop at all. If I enter, I might be interested in buying,
I might be interested in selling, but in any case I am purchasing a service
-- that of the agent -- and not buying (or selling) a home.

As for "printer" being either a machine or a person, I agree, but the tag
is longstanding. There are roughly 100 amenity=printer, 100 craft=printer,
50 craft=printing. And 650 shop=printing. That last seems to be the winner.
And one shop=printing_services :)

If you search (as I did when first encountering this) for "printer" on the
OSM wiki, the first result is amenity=printer. Other variants are not on
the first page (of 20 results), if they are there at all. I first ran
across it while trying to discover how to tag what is called a "taxiphone"
in France. I ran into the copy_shop proposal, where Harry Wood described
them as "crappy little shops".
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Copy_Shop

I'm happy to modify the wiki to recommend shop=printing if that seems
useful.










On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 24. Feb 2018, at 14:27, Johnparis  wrote:
> >
> > To Thilo's questions:
> >
> > 1) amenity=printer is for an establishment that offers printing
> services. It is not a shop that sells printers.
>
>
> IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a
> person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
>
> For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service
> I’d use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop
> should be used for businesses offering products or services.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Marc Gemis]

How does the tag shop=copyshop with service:print=yes/no and
service:press=yes/no, service:self=yes/no  etc. fits into this ?

see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop, it's used
about 14.500 times

m.



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :
>>
>> On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> > IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a
>> > person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
>> >
>> > For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service
>> > I’d use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop
>> > should be used for businesses offering products or services.
>>
>> shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
>> paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.
>
>
>
> Actually I proposed shop=printing_service, this makes it clear it is about
> someone printing for you. printer_service sounds like a place you can bring
> your printer for service.
>
>
>>
>>
>> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>
>
>
>
> no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
> who has learnt printing as a profession.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
>> craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
>> craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.
>>
>> Maybe these could be merged into something
>
>
>
>
> as long as you don't know for sure what these are, you shouldn't merge them.
> It may take some time, but we are generally confident that it will all work
> out some day ;-)
> While there aren't well defined, documented tags it is clear that different,
> similar tags come up, and some will eventually make it, others will sooner
> or later be merged or tags added (when there are definitions and someone has
> checked on the ground that the objects fall into the category).
>
> If you want to speed up this process, you can prepare a proposal for one or
> more of the features we are talking here.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> 2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :
>
>
>>
>> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>>
>
> no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
> who has learnt printing as a profession
>

There are two possibilities for a printer (as in typographic presses and
the people who run them).

One possibility is office=printer.  The wiki says that office is a place of
business where administrative or professional
work is carried out.  It sells services not goods (some printers may also
sell stationery supplies or pre-printed items
but that's a sideline) so it's office rather than shop.  And office fits a
lot better than craft or amenity.  Taginfo says
office=printer has been used 8 times (I'm responsible for one of them).

Another possibility is building=industrial.  Most jobbing printers have
large, noisy machinery.

Both may apply to the same building.  Most jobbing printers have some sort
of office where they deal with customers
and a lot of machinery.

Disclaimer: my father was a printer.  He was a LaserJet IV.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :

> On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a
> person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
> >
> > For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service
> I’d use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop
> should be used for businesses offering products or services.
>
> shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
> paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.
>


Actually I proposed shop=printing_service, this makes it clear it is about
someone printing for you. printer_service sounds like a place you can bring
your printer for service.



>
> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>



no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
who has learnt printing as a profession.



>
> I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
> craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
> craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.
>
> Maybe these could be merged into something




as long as you don't know for sure what these are, you shouldn't merge
them. It may take some time, but we are generally confident that it will
all work out some day ;-)
While there aren't well defined, documented tags it is clear that
different, similar tags come up, and some will eventually make it, others
will sooner or later be merged or tags added (when there are definitions
and someone has checked on the ground that the objects fall into the
category).

If you want to speed up this process, you can prepare a proposal for one or
more of the features we are talking here.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Fredrik]

On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a 
> person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
>
> For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service I’d 
> use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop should be 
> used for businesses offering products or services.

shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.

Its not very clear that a "printer service" shop sells ink cartridges,
but that can be explained in the description or on the wiki etc.

With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc. 

I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.

Maybe these could be merged into something

--

FredrikLindseth


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Feb 2018, at 14:27, Johnparis  wrote:
> 
> To Thilo's questions:
> 
> 1) amenity=printer is for an establishment that offers printing services. It 
> is not a shop that sells printers.


IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a person, 
and amenity doesn’t provide context.

For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service I’d 
use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop should be 
used for businesses offering products or services.

Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging