Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[John Willis]

Thanks, but marker only has seven uses - stele has about 5000.

Also- Marker, to me, would be something you would find in the ground with a 
number or a pole with a number on it, or something based around a ref number or 
value of some sort (like a mile marker). 

In the US, a "historical landmark" or "marker" is usually a plaque embedded in 
a pedestal or stone, so it is memorial=plaque, with about 10,000 uses. 

^___^

Javbw

> On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:21 AM, EthnicFood IsGreat  
> wrote:
> 
> memorial=marker

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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Michael Booth]

Sorry, but bed_and_breakfast is not tagged in the "hundreds and 
thousands" - it is in fact used less than 700 times worldwide (about 300 
in the UK, including 10% of the total in one town alone!). And if you 
look at the tag history graph you'll see it has never been above 750 at 
any point.


This compares to guest_house which now has 114k uses (was 38k when B&B 
was deprecated four years ago). It looks like the guest_house definition 
includes B&Bs so there doesn't seem to be any point in having another 
top level tag value. Most of the objects I've looked at can easily be 
retagged as guest_house, plus quite a few are from the early days of OSM 
before this tag consensus appeared.


On 15/10/2018 09:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

10. tourism=bed_and_breakfast
The suggested alternative is 
"tourism=guest_house+guest_house=bed_and_breakfast"
Every time a deprecated tag should be replaced by a tag which is so 
unspecific that people have seen to need to add subtags in order to 
express what it is (on the same level of specificity as the tag that 
should be deprecated), there is some problem. People know what is a 
bed and breakfast, the tag it in the hundreds and thousands despite it 
being discouraged and flagged as deprecated. Wouldn't it be easier to 
accept tourism=bed_and_breakfast, or are there other issues with this tag?


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=clinic or healthcare=clinic

[Mateusz Konieczny]

17. Oct 2018 23:22 by matkoni...@tutanota.com :


> 17. Oct 2018 20:45 by > cliff...@snowandsnow.us 
> > :
>
>
>> When reviewing a new users first edits, I noticed they use bot 
>> amenity=clinic and healthcare=clinic. I was surprised to see both are 
>> document on the wiki - amenity=clinic [1] and healthcare=clinic [2] 
>> They seem redundant. Should both exist or should amenity=clinic be 
>> deprecated? (I like the healthcare=clinic better mainly because amenity is 
>> so overused.)
>> The edits were done with iD which would indicate they have both tags. 
>> [1] >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dclinic 
>> >> [2] >> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare 
>> 
>
>
>
>
>  Given that both amenity=clinic and healthcare=clinic may be easily added to 
> the same object
>
> I see no reason to spend tome on convincing mappers and data users to switch 
> to single
>
> version.
>




 Sorry: tome -> time

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=clinic or healthcare=clinic

[Mateusz Konieczny]

17. Oct 2018 20:45 by cliff...@snowandsnow.us :


> When reviewing a new users first edits, I noticed they use bot amenity=clinic 
> and healthcare=clinic. I was surprised to see both are document on the wiki - 
> amenity=clinic [1] and healthcare=clinic [2] 
> They seem redundant. Should both exist or should amenity=clinic be 
> deprecated? (I like the healthcare=clinic better mainly because amenity is so 
> overused.)
> The edits were done with iD which would indicate they have both tags. 
> [1] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dclinic 
> > [2] > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare 
> 




 Given that both amenity=clinic and healthcare=clinic may be easily added to 
the same object

I see no reason to spend tome on convincing mappers and data users to switch to 
single

version.

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Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:20:32 +0900
From: John Willis 
To: strategy and related tools Tag discussion

Subject: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question.


How would I map this object?
https://www.machigururi.com/spot_detail.php?id=3762 


It is a stone tablet memorializing when a small levee failed and washed away 
part of a hamlet. This is in the park built on top of the levee repair.


these kinds of stone tablets - always a freestanding carved or etched stone 
(not a plaque attached to a rock), and usually between 50cm and 2m in height, 
are the most common form of memorial object in Japan (very tall, thin, cut 
stone tablets anchored in the ground, covered with carved letters - not a 
memorial=stone). this example is a more modern version, with very little text. 
older ones are covered with text. though it looks like a headstone or a grave, 
this is not a common shape for a grave marker in Japan - but for memorial 
tablets.

interestingly, the sub-tag of historic=memorial, memorial=*,  has a lot of 
suggested values in iD, including memorial - so memorial=memorial is a commonly 
tagged value (295 uses)!

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:memorial 


to me, this is a tablet (20 uses), but if this object is better defined by 
another value, I would be happy to use it.

Javbw



I mapped something similar, and in the absence of a better description, 
I simply used memorial=marker.


Mark

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=clinic or healthcare=clinic

[Bryan Housel]

Yes, iD now adds the `healthcare=` tags alongside the legacy tags.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3589

We also considered asking users if they want to “upgrade” old tags, but I 
received enough pushback that I just decided to drop the idea.
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4591
(I still think it’s worth revisiting someday)

Thanks, Bryan




> On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> When reviewing a new users first edits, I noticed they use bot amenity=clinic 
> and healthcare=clinic. I was surprised to see both are document on the wiki - 
> amenity=clinic [1] and healthcare=clinic [2] 
> 
> They seem redundant. Should both exist or should amenity=clinic be 
> deprecated? (I like the healthcare=clinic better mainly because amenity is so 
> overused.)
> 
> The edits were done with iD which would indicate they have both tags. 
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dclinic 
> 
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare 
> 
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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[Tagging] amenity=clinic or healthcare=clinic

[Clifford Snow]

When reviewing a new users first edits, I noticed they use bot
amenity=clinic and healthcare=clinic. I was surprised to see both are
document on the wiki - amenity=clinic [1] and healthcare=clinic [2]

They seem redundant. Should both exist or should amenity=clinic be
deprecated? (I like the healthcare=clinic better mainly because amenity is
so overused.)

The edits were done with iD which would indicate they have both tags.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dclinic
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare

-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

When in doubt, OSM prefers UK terminology. Also, I suggest using
non-ambiguous notation whenever possible, so please share if you know
another widespread word in place of 'deli'.
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:44 PM Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:
> >
> > Is WIkipedia definition
> >
> > "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> > unusual or
> > foreign prepared foods"
> >
> > correct?
>
> No. I've changed it to "fine, unusual or foreign prepared foods".
>
> But note also that the same page says "'Deli' also denotes a small
> convenience store or milk bar in [Australia]" and "In the United
> States, a delicatessen (or deli) is often a combined grocery store and
> restaurant".
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> Is WIkipedia definition
>
> "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> unusual or
> foreign prepared foods"
>
> correct?

No. I've changed it to "fine, unusual or foreign prepared foods".

But note also that the same page says "'Deli' also denotes a small
convenience store or milk bar in [Australia]" and "In the United
States, a delicatessen (or deli) is often a combined grocery store and
restaurant".

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Andy Townsend]

On 17/10/2018 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Is WIkipedia definition

"A *delicatessen* or *deli* is a retail establishment 
 that sells a selection of 
unusual or

foreign prepared foods"

correct?



"foreign" - not in English, no, and none of the regional definitions on 
that wikipedia page suggest that either.


"unusual" - maybe, if the usual way you obtain cooked meat is to open a tin.

Cheers,

Andy





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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Is WIkipedia definition
"A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment 
 that sells a selection of unusual or 
foreign prepared foods"
 
correct?
Because in that case this shop would be exact opposite. Pierogi are one of the 
mosttraditional meal and are quite popular.
8. Oct 2018 20:17 by bkil.hu...@gmail.com :


> How do you like this one?
> shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi
>
> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 2:11 PM Mateusz Konieczny
> <> matkoni...@tutanota.com > > wrote:
>>
>> 7. Oct 2018 04:33 by >> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>> So this tag isn't very specific yet
>>
>>
>> I used it because it was not specific for >> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319 
>> 
>>
>>
>> It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to 
>> prepare but are
>>
>> not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).
>>
>>
>> I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there 
>> was no suitable tag
>>
>> so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] issues with the list of deprecated features

[Georg Feddern]

Am 15.10.2018 um 16:38 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:



Am Mo., 15. Okt. 2018 um 14:21 Uhr schrieb Tom Pfeifer 
mailto:t.pfei...@computer.org>>:


On 15.10.2018 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 3. amenity=creche and amenity=nursery
> For both tags amenity=kindergarten is suggested as alternative
tagging, which seems clearly wrong
> (kindergarten is usually for ages 3-6 while these tags are for
ages 0-3).

I thought the consensus was here that it depends on the country.
In Germany, I see mostly the "Kita"
(Kindertagesstätte) structure which in the same institution enrols
age 0-6 in different departments
or groups, and a lot offer afterschool supervision (Hort).
This is easily expressed with the min_age + max_age tag, and some
folks use after_school=yes.



For the German situation, KiTa and Hort should/could well be tagged 
with childcare, but "Krippe"? And if we decide to tag a Krippe 
(creche/nursery) the same as a Hort or KiTa, but with age tags, isn't 
that inconsistent with Kindergarten? From my point of view, Hort and 
KiTa are both childcare places which extend beyond the times of 
kindergarten and school (and are after those, typically), while a 
Krippe is for babies up to 3 years and is more like a Kindergarten, 
apart from the age. It would really be much more logical and easier to 
introduce / accept nurseries (there's a reason there is a specific 
term for this in language, no?), then throw most but not all of 
"child-related-stuff" in the same cauldron where you will have to dig 
for age group and other specfic tags in order to make sense of it.


There is always a reason having a specific term for different parts of 
childcare - it is simply easier to talk about a Krippe(nursery), 
Kindergarten, Hort(after school club) instead of a childcare with 
age_group 0-3, 4-6, 7-14.
And it is quite logical to take these terms as tags - in the first 
attempt 
But is it really easier to end up with three different amenities - and 
so with different POIs - for a childcare which enrols all age groups?
Nevertheless the min or max age sometimes differs at the same sort of 
institution - so you may look e. g. after a hort but still have to check 
for the valid age anyway.
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Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question.

[John Willis]

Thanks!  

One of the wiki examples (a rubbing from a tablet from Takasaki) is from my 
area, and exactly what I was thinking of. 

The example image I saw on OSM was of a pole or something, but the Wikipedia 
was much more broad. 

There like a hundred or more of those in my town alone, so now I can map them. 

Javbw

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 6:49 PM, Lionel Giard  wrote:
> 
> I would use memorial=stele (as it looks like a stele to me). If you go on 
> wikipedia it looks like some of the "usual" stele : 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele .
> 
>> Le mer. 17 oct. 2018 à 11:22, John Willis  a écrit :
>> How would I map this object? 
>> https://www.machigururi.com/spot_detail.php?id=3762
>> 
>> It is a stone tablet memorializing when a small levee failed and washed away 
>> part of a hamlet. This is in the park built on top of the levee repair.
>> 
>> 
>> these kinds of stone tablets - always a freestanding carved or etched stone 
>> (not a plaque attached to a rock), and usually between 50cm and 2m in 
>> height, are the most common form of memorial object in Japan (very tall, 
>> thin, cut stone tablets anchored in the ground, covered with carved letters 
>> - not a memorial=stone). this example is a more modern version, with very 
>> little text. older ones are covered with text. though it looks like a 
>> headstone or a grave, this is not a common shape for a grave marker in Japan 
>> - but for memorial tablets. 
>> 
>> interestingly, the sub-tag of historic=memorial, memorial=*,  has a lot of 
>> suggested values in iD, including memorial - so memorial=memorial is a 
>> commonly tagged value (295 uses)!
>> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:memorial
>> 
>> to me, this is a tablet (20 uses), but if this object is better defined by 
>> another value, I would be happy to use it. 
>> 
>> Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Mateusz Konieczny]

17. Oct 2018 11:45 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com 
:


> name=McDonalds isn’t really right, it should probably just be brand=McDonalds 
> unless the specific location has a real name. 




I disagree with that. In that case that fast food has both name and brand.




It is not a requirement for a name to be unique. 

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Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question.

[Lionel Giard]

I would use memorial=stele (as it looks like a stele to me). If you go on
wikipedia it looks like some of the "usual" stele :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele .

Le mer. 17 oct. 2018 à 11:22, John Willis  a écrit :

> How would I map this object?
> https://www.machigururi.com/spot_detail.php?id=3762
>
> It is a stone tablet memorializing when a small levee failed and washed
> away part of a hamlet. This is in the park built on top of the levee repair.
>
>
> these kinds of stone tablets - always a freestanding carved or etched
> stone (not a plaque attached to a rock), and usually between 50cm and 2m in
> height, are the most common form of memorial object in Japan (very tall,
> thin, cut stone tablets anchored in the ground, covered with carved letters
> - not a memorial=stone). this example is a more modern version, with very
> little text. older ones are covered with text. though it looks like a
> headstone or a grave, this is not a common shape for a grave marker in
> Japan - but for memorial tablets.
>
> interestingly, the sub-tag of historic=memorial, memorial=*,  has a lot of
> suggested values in iD, including memorial - so memorial=memorial is a
> commonly tagged value (295 uses)!
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:memorial
>
> to me, this is a tablet (20 uses), but if this object is better defined by
> another value, I would be happy to use it.
>
> Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Joseph Eisenberg]

As we discussed last month, brands are not necessarily in a particular
language. Name=McDonalds isn’t really right, it should probably just be
brand=McDonalds unless the specific location has a real name. And what
language is “IKEA”?

But at any rate, it’s fine to just use name= for a chain restaurant or any
sort of shop name which isn’t clearly in a particular language. These are
“fictitious business names”, or trademarks.

It’s more useful to specify the default language for features that have
real names in multiple languages: for example, cities, rivers, lakes,
mountains, seas, some roads, and so on.

The default language tag is NOT meant to “tell what language is used in the
default name tag”. That’s impossible in an open database with no
moderation. I understand that there were a couple of rejected proposals
last year with that goal.

Rather, this tag is meant to allow database users to automatically pick
which localized names to use in a particular place. So default:language=en
means “the name:en tag should be the name that is used most often locally,
on signs and in conversation by local people.”

While default:language=fr;nl means “look at the name:fr and name:nl tags to
find the most commonly used local name or names used on signs and in
conversation by local people.”

Please read the proposal page for more examples and explanations; I
understand that this is a complex issue.

Joseph





On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 6:24 PM marc marc  wrote:

> > Are there lots of POIs in Brussels that have a name in both
> > languages in the database <...>?
>
> what's Marc G. mean is that a Mc Donalds in Brussels (as nearly
> everywhere) nearly never have a name:fr nor a name:nl
> only a name=Mc Donald (bad ex, it's a brand, but I still use this one).
>
> this is the case for the majority of restaurants, bars, office
> that have a unique name often in the language of their creator.
> Marc G. fears that he will have to add default:language on each of those
> objects because otherwise the tag on the region tell that their name
> is in fr:nl and that's wrong.
>
> if we wanted to describe the situation perfectly, it would look like
> default:Language="fr;nl @ highway;operator:type=public)"
> because only those name follow the rule but imho that's overkill.
> other name have no Language rule at all.
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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

17. Oct 2018 11:30 by marc_marc_...@hotmail.com 
:


> Le 17. 10. 18 à 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
>> 16. Oct 2018 09:47 by >> fl.infosrese...@gmail.com 
>> >>  
>> I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different
>> concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering
>>
>> power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not
>> interested in the extreme detail
>
> if you don't care about extreme detail one power=line is better :)
> you see a line, tag a line in stead of guessing if it's a minor or not.
>




In my case I am interested in differentiating major power lines and minor power 
lines

without further details.




Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined OSM and 


is really popular I guess that I am not alone.




There are certainly (as with everything else) things that may be reasonably 
tagged as

both line and minor_line but nearly always it is blatantly obvious and no 
deliberations are

required.

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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[marc marc]

Le 17. 10. 18 à 10:50, Mateusz Konieczny a écrit :
> 16. Oct 2018 09:47 by fl.infosrese...@gmail.com 
> I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different
> concept in one value, and is only useful for rendering
> 
> power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not
> interested in the extreme detail

if you don't care about extreme detail one power=line is better :)
you see a line, tag a line in stead of guessing if it's a minor or not.

if build from scratch, the schema should have minor<>major in a subtag
that's better for ppl not interested any detail without any impact for 
ppl interested with "medium" (minor<>major) and high details (voltage)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[marc marc]

> Are there lots of POIs in Brussels that have a name in both
> languages in the database <...>?

what's Marc G. mean is that a Mc Donalds in Brussels (as nearly 
everywhere) nearly never have a name:fr nor a name:nl
only a name=Mc Donald (bad ex, it's a brand, but I still use this one).

this is the case for the majority of restaurants, bars, office
that have a unique name often in the language of their creator.
Marc G. fears that he will have to add default:language on each of those 
objects because otherwise the tag on the region tell that their name
is in fr:nl and that's wrong.

if we wanted to describe the situation perfectly, it would look like
default:Language="fr;nl @ highway;operator:type=public)"
because only those name follow the rule but imho that's overkill.
other name have no Language rule at all.
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[Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question.

[John Willis]

How would I map this object? 
https://www.machigururi.com/spot_detail.php?id=3762 


It is a stone tablet memorializing when a small levee failed and washed away 
part of a hamlet. This is in the park built on top of the levee repair.


these kinds of stone tablets - always a freestanding carved or etched stone 
(not a plaque attached to a rock), and usually between 50cm and 2m in height, 
are the most common form of memorial object in Japan (very tall, thin, cut 
stone tablets anchored in the ground, covered with carved letters - not a 
memorial=stone). this example is a more modern version, with very little text. 
older ones are covered with text. though it looks like a headstone or a grave, 
this is not a common shape for a grave marker in Japan - but for memorial 
tablets. 

interestingly, the sub-tag of historic=memorial, memorial=*,  has a lot of 
suggested values in iD, including memorial - so memorial=memorial is a commonly 
tagged value (295 uses)!

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:memorial 


to me, this is a tablet (20 uses), but if this object is better defined by 
another value, I would be happy to use it. 

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Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

16. Oct 2018 09:47 by fl.infosrese...@gmail.com 
:


> I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different concept in 
> one value, and is only useful for rendering




power=line/power=minor_line is useful for both mappers and data users not 


interested in the extreme detail of power networks and care about them only as

orientation points or are mapping from aerial images.




As usual, there people mapping in greater detail but both 





"map it in general, without any special knowledge or interest in detail" and

and "map some detail" and "map it extreme detail" should be possible.




power=line/power=minor_line is useful for the first use case.




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Mateusz Konieczny]

16. Oct 2018 14:54 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com 
:


> Are there lots of POIs in Brussels that have a name in both languages in the 
> database but should only be displayed in one language?




Depends on what map maker wants to show on her/his map. 

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