Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[Warin]

On 31/01/19 13:02, John Willis via Tagging wrote:



On Jan 31, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


There are, or were 'cubs' for the younger people, 'rovers' for the 
older people, guides for the girls 


yea - Brownies, Wheblos, Venture scouts, etc.  There are tons of them 
just for Boy & Girl scouts.


the entire category seems to be called “scouting” or “Guiding”

There are several hundred names listed here in this category.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_groups_in_Scouting_and_Guiding

The name will give a good indication.

club=youth
youth=*

???
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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Jan 31, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> There are, or were 'cubs' for the younger people, 'rovers' for the older 
> people, guides for the girls  

yea - Brownies, Wheblos, Venture scouts, etc.  There are tons of them just for 
Boy & Girl scouts. 

the entire category seems to be called “scouting” or “Guiding” 

There are several hundred names listed here in this category. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_groups_in_Scouting_and_Guiding 




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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[Warin]

On 31/01/19 11:33, John Willis via Tagging wrote:


On Jan 31, 2019, at 8:15 AM, marc marc > wrote:


Scouts and scout do maybe not have the same meaning in belgium.
I understand club=scout (without a ending S and without an upercase)
as the "generic" term for any scout-like club


+1

Similar to how brand names become the name for things (kleenex, jello, 
etc), the term “scout” i think is used as a generic for all of these 
types of outdoor youth organizations.


I think differentiating it via operator=* and the name=* tag would be 
enough.


"Boy Scouts” sounds like a name, but is it the Boy Scouts of America? 
is the Mexico scouts (which are boys and girls)? is it the Boy Scouts 
of Japan?


There are, or were 'cubs' for the younger people, 'rovers' for the older 
people, guides for the girls 


The only OSMwiki on scout is for a telenav app ...
So club=scout could mean anything.



it is just a generic for all these types of organizations.

If I saw

name=Chiro Kortrijk
club=scout
operator:Chiro

I would assume it is that Kortrijk City’s meeting place for a regional 
group similar to the Boy or Girl Scouts - not that is *is* the Boy 
Scouts of Belgium.


Javbw


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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Jan 31, 2019, at 8:15 AM, marc marc  wrote:
> 
> Scouts and scout do maybe not have the same meaning in belgium.
> I understand club=scout (without a ending S and without an upercase)
> as the "generic" term for any scout-like club

+1 

Similar to how brand names become the name for things (kleenex, jello, etc), 
the term “scout” i think is used as a generic for all of these types of outdoor 
youth organizations. 

I think differentiating it via operator=* and the name=* tag would be enough. 

"Boy Scouts” sounds like a name, but is it the Boy Scouts of America? is the 
Mexico scouts (which are boys and girls)? is it the Boy Scouts of Japan? 

it is just a generic for all these types of organizations.

If I saw

name=Chiro Kortrijk
club=scout
operator:Chiro

I would assume it is that Kortrijk City’s meeting place for a regional group 
similar to the Boy or Girl Scouts - not that is *is* the Boy Scouts of Belgium. 

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[Tagging] Tagging "test preperation" / cram school / Juku (eg: Komon)

[John Willis via Tagging]

Looking over the page for schools and  all the abandoned proposals, I assume 
there is some in-use tag for after-school study and test preparation type 
private “schools” 

In the US, besides chain shops like Komon, there are “SAT Test preparation” 
places to help high school students study for the SAT test. In Japan, many 
students go to cram schools - Juku - on a regular basis. they are not 
after-school daycare programs, as some students are there studying until 9PM, 
or go after returning home and eating dinner. Many students attend seasonal 
courses after school to help them study for entrance exams for middle & high 
schools (my kids did this). The majority are classes for students to help them 
with studying, homework, or entrance exam test prep, but I would not consider 
them “schools” in the same way we think of a middle school or a high school, in 
the same way the a driving school isn’t a school. 

The much larger facilities, such as Kawaijuku in Tokyo, where students study 
every day, all day, for a year straight to pass entrance exams certainly is a 
type of school. Students trying to take difficult entrance exams often choose 
to attend these type of schools, but they are a vanishingly small percentage of 
“Jukus” that exist. the little study room next to the train station (the size 
of a garage) doesn’t seem like a school to me. 

OSM wiki returns basically nothing for “cram school” , and the JA tagging pages 
offer no help on the “how do I tag a…” page ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:How_to_map_a ). It has an entry for juku 
(塾), but points to an abandoned 2007 proposal. ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pre-School_(early_childhood_education)
 

 )

Does anyone have any experience tagging these types of things? 

tagging it as “amenity=school” seems wrong.

perhaps amenity=cram_school needs to be created, but it has only 10 uses per 
taginfo. 


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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[marc marc]

Le 30.01.19 à 23:02, Warin a écrit :
> On 31/01/19 08:41, s8evq wrote:
>> I'm a relative new contributor

welcome.

>> "club=scout" and "club=youth".
>> What about similar organisations than Scouts? This might not exists as 
>> much in other countries, but here in Belgium we have KSA, KLJ, Chiro 
>> and Scouts (and a whole bunch more).
>> 1) Why does Scouts have it's own value in the club tag? If club=scout 
>> exists, why couldn't then club=chiro also exist?
> However club=scouts only has 57 uses in the data base.
> club=scout is >600 so that it the one to use for them.

Scouts and scout do maybe not have the same meaning in belgium.
I understand club=scout (without a ending S and without an upercase)
as the "generic" term for any scout-like club
but club=scouts as in "Les Scouts" (the name in french) of a specific 
scout club.
outside belgium, I have not idea if club=scouts have the same meaning as 
club=scout

so mayb we can extend club=scout scout=Chiro|Scouts|Guide|... (I have no 
idea about the english name of Chiro Guide Patro) and so on for every 
specific "sub-type" of scout-like club.

> There is nothing stopping you from using club=chiro

Chiro (and Scouts) is a name. did we need a club= value for every club 
name ? I don't think so.
Scouts and Guides are, for example, very close to each other that
there is a Scout and Guide Association that brings them together

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 30.01.2019 22:41, s8evq wrote:


2) According to the wiki there's also club=youth, but it's not used and 
amenity=community_centre should be used instead.
Reading the wiki on amenity=community_centre 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcommunity_centre#Differentiation): 
"When the centre is open to general audiences (...) gathering for particular 
activities, it should be tagged amenity=community_centre. When it addresses an audience 
with specific problems, and/or is staffed with professional helpers (social workers, 
nurses), amenity=social_facility would be preferred. "
Both don't fit the case here, as these places (just like scouts) are only open 
for members.


The statement is there to distinguish between facilities where people with specific problems get 
help, and those you'd visit voluntarily. Thus if everybody (maybe within a specific age group) could 
join (i.e. become a member) of the scouts, or a sports club, than amenity=community_centre would be 
suitable.


There are subtags that describe the facility closer, such as
- community_centre=youth_centre
- community_centre=club_home

or the target community, such as
community_centre:for=child

Adding club=scout does not hurt in you case.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[Warin]

On 31/01/19 08:41, s8evq wrote:


Hello everyone,

I'm a relative new contributor and have a question about tagging "club=scout" and 
"club=youth".

What about similar organisations than Scouts? This might not exists as much in 
other countries, but here in Belgium we have KSA, KLJ, Chiro and Scouts (and a 
whole bunch more). These organisations are very similar to how Scouts operate 
and what they stand for (perhaps a smaller emphasis on the outdoors).  If we 
look at the amount of members in Vlaanderen, they are equal, if not bigger than 
Scouts:
Chiro: 112.000 members
Scouts: 82.000 members
KSA: 32.000 members
KLJ: 22.000 members

So my question are:

1) Why does Scouts have it's own value in the club tag? If club=scout exists, 
why couldn't then club=chiro also exist?


The scouts have a very long history and world wide recognition/organisation.

I have never heard of 'chiro'.
However club=scouts only has 57 uses in the data base.
club=scout is >600 so that it the one to use for them.

club=youth is >100



Something doesn't seem right with that idea.

2) According to the wiki there's also club=youth, but it's not used and 
amenity=community_centre should be used instead.
Reading the wiki on amenity=community_centre 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcommunity_centre#Differentiation): 
"When the centre is open to general audiences (...) gathering for particular 
activities, it should be tagged amenity=community_centre. When it addresses an audience 
with specific problems, and/or is staffed with professional helpers (social workers, 
nurses), amenity=social_facility would be preferred. "
Both don't fit the case here, as these places (just like scouts) are only open 
for members.


Help is appreciated.


There is nothing stopping you from using club=chiro and others. But do document 
it on the OSMwiki.
They are unlikely to be rendered as anything other than a 'club' at this stage.


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Re: [Tagging] weight limit in short tons

[Warin]

On 31/01/19 07:20, Minh Nguyen wrote:

On 2019-01-26 15:27, Warin wrote:

The only problem is the 'ton'.

I n the USA 2,000 pounds
In the UK 2,240 pounds.


Resolving this? units 'ton us' and 'ton uk' ???


I've been converting to pounds (lbs), which avoids this ambiguity with 
precise conversions. Apparently I'm not alone. [1] But I'd welcome a 
well-supported convention for U.S. tons so that data consumers don't 
have to guess whether the sign is expressed in pounds or tons.


[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/maxweight=1%20lbs


Better demonstration of use
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=lbs#values


Over 1,000 instances.

Some use of kg too .. but that is harder to demonstrate.

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[Tagging] club=scout for similar organisations

[s8evq]

Hello everyone,

I'm a relative new contributor and have a question about tagging "club=scout" 
and "club=youth". 

What about similar organisations than Scouts? This might not exists as much in 
other countries, but here in Belgium we have KSA, KLJ, Chiro and Scouts (and a 
whole bunch more). These organisations are very similar to how Scouts operate 
and what they stand for (perhaps a smaller emphasis on the outdoors).  If we 
look at the amount of members in Vlaanderen, they are equal, if not bigger than 
Scouts:
Chiro: 112.000 members
Scouts: 82.000 members
KSA: 32.000 members
KLJ: 22.000 members

So my question are:

1) Why does Scouts have it's own value in the club tag? If club=scout exists, 
why couldn't then club=chiro also exist?

Something doesn't seem right with that idea.

2) According to the wiki there's also club=youth, but it's not used and 
amenity=community_centre should be used instead. 
Reading the wiki on amenity=community_centre 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dcommunity_centre#Differentiation):
 "When the centre is open to general audiences (...) gathering for particular 
activities, it should be tagged amenity=community_centre. When it addresses an 
audience with specific problems, and/or is staffed with professional helpers 
(social workers, nurses), amenity=social_facility would be preferred. "
Both don't fit the case here, as these places (just like scouts) are only open 
for members.


Help is appreciated.


Kind regards

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Re: [Tagging] The actual use of the level tag

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2019-01-20 05:49, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Hi there,

In the wiki, the level tag is defined to be a 0-based-index so that
level=0 is the ground floor, i.e. at the street level. In other words, a
two-storey mall with no basement will have shops at level=0 and level=1.

This is intuitive for (at least) Europeans, people from Commonwealth
countries and parts of Asia as this coincides with common language.
However, in at least the USA, Canada, Japan, Korea, China and most
probably more regions, the floor at street level is denominated as the
"1st floor" in common language. In other words, it is a 1-based-index.


The numbering system can also vary by region within a country. Northern 
and central Vietnam uses a zero-based system while southern Vietnam uses 
a one-based system, and somehow both are national standards. [1] I'm 
unsure if there's a well-defined boundary between the two systems, but 
if there is, I like to think someone has built a building straddling the 
two, just to mess with us.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storey#East_Asian_schemes

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Tagging] weight limit in short tons

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2019-01-26 15:27, Warin wrote:

The only problem is the 'ton'.

I n the USA 2,000 pounds
In the UK 2,240 pounds.


Resolving this? units 'ton us' and 'ton uk' ???


I've been converting to pounds (lbs), which avoids this ambiguity with 
precise conversions. Apparently I'm not alone. [1] But I'd welcome a 
well-supported convention for U.S. tons so that data consumers don't 
have to guess whether the sign is expressed in pounds or tons.


[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/maxweight=1%20lbs

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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[Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

[severin.menard via Tagging]

I would rather add a specific section in the wiki page about width with the 
explanations you just provided to make the point clear once for all.

> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 18:28:50 +0300
> From: Eugene Podshivalov yauge...@gmail.com
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch
> Message-ID:
> CAEPw1JWMFcpquKJzE4Wp4_r4V6F=fovnq7m-dzzjibsvaiu...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There are words in the language which let you distinguish natural waterways
> by size, e.g. brook -> stream -> river.
> The artifical waterways on the contrary are distinguished maily by usage,
> rather than by size:
> canal - carry useful water
> ditch - melioration chanals which are in contact with the land (soak water
> from or into land)
> drain - carry away superfluous liquid (and hence are usually lined).
>
> Canals due to their purpose are usually but not necesserily large, e.g.
> some canals in hydro-power generation can be just a couple of meters wide.
> Drains and ditches again due to their purpose are usually small.
> The only point at which "size" is in the play is when drainage ditches flow
> into a larger channel which eventually carries the water away from a field
> or when a large channel brings water to a field and distributes it between
> irrigation ditches. These large waterways can be called canals probably
> because they get some kind of "useful" connotation.
>
> Maybe we need to delete the "large" and "small" words from the beginning of
> definitions at all?
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene

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Re: [Tagging] fence with wall base

[Jérôme Seigneuret]

thank marc

I do that

Le mer. 30 janv. 2019 à 10:47, marc marc  a
écrit :

> Le 30.01.19 à 09:41, Jérôme Seigneuret a écrit :
> > How can I. edit a wall+fence with height details?
> > barrier=wall;fence
> > 0 is base of the barrier same as building
>
> barrier=fence
> barrier:height=1.50
> barrier:type=chain_link
>
> support=wall
> support:height=0.50
> support:material=masonry
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-- 
Cordialement,
Jérôme Seigneuret
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

There are words in the language which let you distinguish natural waterways
by size, e.g. brook -> stream -> river.
The artifical waterways on the contrary are distinguished maily by usage,
rather than by size:
canal - carry useful water
ditch - melioration chanals which are in contact with the land (soak water
from or into land)
drain - carry away superfluous liquid (and hence are usually lined).

Canals due to their purpose are usually but not necesserily large, e.g.
some canals in hydro-power generation can be just a couple of meters wide.
Drains and ditches again due to their purpose are usually small.
The only point at which "size" is in the play is when drainage ditches flow
into a larger channel which eventually carries the water away from a field
or when a large channel brings water to a field and distributes it between
irrigation ditches. These large waterways can be called canals probably
because they get some kind of "useful" connotation.

Maybe we need to delete the "large" and "small" words from the beginning of
definitions at all?

Cheers,
Eugene

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 16:21, EthnicFood IsGreat :

>
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:15:41 +0300
> > From: Eugene Podshivalov 
> > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> >   
> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> >
> > ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Large means?
> >> Small means?
> >>
> >> To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> >> it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
> >>
> > Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over
> a
> > 2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
> > canal.
> > So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> > ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Those descriptions look good
> >> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
> >>>
> >>> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> >>> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> >>> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry
> industrial
> >>> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
> >>>
> >>> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions
> as
> >>> follows.
> >>>
> >>> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways
> used
> >>> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> >>> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
> >>> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using
> waterway=drain
> >>> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
> >>>
> >>> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with
> concrete
> >>> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
> >>> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
> >>> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet
> land.
> >>> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
> >>>
> >>> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry
> land
> >>> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined,
> drainage
> >>> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into
> them.
> >>> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
> >>> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
> >>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> >>> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage
> channels.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Eugene
> >>>
> >>> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
> >>>
>  Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or
> the
> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> > this discussion?
>  maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
>  to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
>  many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
>  the subject has generated
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>
> So it sounds like we're using the word "stream" for all natural
> waterways smaller than a river.  This can mean anything from something
> small enough to step across to something several meters across.  Is
> there no other choice of words that can be used to differentiate these
> waterways based on size?  Wouldn't it be desirable for renderers to
> differentiate 

[Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[severin.menard via Tagging]

tmail.com>:
> >
> > Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created
> > or the
> > > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself
> > based on
> > > this discussion?
> >
> > maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
> > to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
> > many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails
> > that
> > the subject has generated
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
> >
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20190130/6a03b24f/attachment-0001.html
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 19:00:26 +0900
> From: Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> Message-ID:
> CAP_2vPgsv=4xuGN=hq4wuestzyvjpbo3ck4v7ufcjp90r1+...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Those descriptions look good
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov yauge...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> > Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
> > Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> > Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> > differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
> > discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
> > It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
> > follows.
> > canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
> > to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> > irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
> > small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
> > for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
> > drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
> > or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
> > industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
> > using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
> > Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
> > ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
> > or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
> > ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
> > Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
> > intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
> > waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> > using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
> > Cheers,
> > Eugene
> > вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc marc_marc_...@hotmail.com:
> >
> > > Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > >
> > > > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> > > > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> > > > this discussion?
> > >
> > > maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
> > > to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
> > > many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
> > > the subject has generated
> > >
> > > Tagging mailing list
> > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:15:41 +0300
> From: Eugene Podshivalov yauge...@gmail.com
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch
> Message-ID:
> caepw1jvphmdqszytgp0tghhr7_cw1quq9yuv5ocvgdnmnta...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com:
>
> > Large means?
> > Small means?
> > To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> > it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
>
> Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a
> 2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
> canal.
> So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene



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Re: [Tagging] The actual use of the level tag

[Tobias Zwick]

I stumbled upon a real-world example yesterday that may make the attempt
to have the level-tag describe a "global" order (as used in OpenLevelUp,
JOSM etc.) somewhat impractical -  with that level-selector UI element:

So, Hamburg is a really flat city. And even still, the mall "Europa
Passage" ...
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/214840502#map=17/53.55223/9.99644
... does have two "ground floors". If you enter through the northern
entrance, you are in the lower ground floor (level=0), if you enter
through the southern entrance, you are in the upper ground floor
(level=1). If you walk alongside the mall though (Bergstraße), there is
no (apparent) elevation.

So, imagine there are more indoor-mapped places both around the northern
and the southern end of that mall (there is, partly, but I am sparing
you the details), and as a matter of fact, sprinkled throughout the
entire city centre.
Then, to have a global order of things, the ground floor of all the
buildings South of that mall would need to be tagged with level=1 and
the ground floor of all the buildings North of this mall would need to
be tagged with level=0. In other words, must be relative to the level
order used in this building.

I see two problems with this:

1. Where to stop? How global is this global order? Going further South,
at what point does the level-value for the ground floor revert back to
0? What then if two such places collide? (A mall and a multi-level train
station were mapped separately and they built a tunnel to connect the
two, but they connect on different level=X - or not even a tunnel, let's
say they are just next to each other)

2. It is somewhat confusing for the user (and the mapper) because if you
look at such a map, at for example level=0, you would see an unexpected
split through the city centre where seemingly no building is
indoor-mapped South of that mall ... oh wait, it's all on level=1+.  ???

I, too, hope that the example was understandable.

Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs. ditch

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 13:15:41 +0300
From: Eugene Podshivalov 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:


Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.


Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a
2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
canal.
So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.

Cheers,
Eugene


ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg :


Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:


Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :


Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :

How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
the subject has generated
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So it sounds like we're using the word "stream" for all natural 
waterways smaller than a river.  This can mean anything from something 
small enough to step across to something several meters across.  Is 
there no other choice of words that can be used to differentiate these 
waterways based on size?  Wouldn't it be desirable for renderers to 
differentiate "major" and "minor" streams differently?  I don't think 
relying on a width tag is a good idea, because it's easier for mappers 
to simply choose between two words to tag one of these waterways rather 
than estimate and assign a width tag.


Mark



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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Large means?
> Small means?
>
> To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over
> it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.
>
Drains and ditches can be 0.1 to 5 metres wide. You can hardly step over a
2-5 metre wide ditch, can you? Anything greater than that can be called a
canal.
So I would leave this up to the user to decide on.

Cheers,
Eugene


ср, 30 янв. 2019 г. в 13:04, Joseph Eisenberg :

> Those descriptions look good
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
> wrote:
>
>> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
>>
>> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
>> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
>> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
>> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
>>
>> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
>> follows.
>>
>> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
>> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
>> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
>> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
>> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
>> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
>> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
>> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
>> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
>>
>> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
>> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
>> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
>> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
>> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
>> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
>> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Eugene
>>
>> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
>>
>>> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>>> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
>>> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
>>> > this discussion?
>>>
>>> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
>>> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
>>> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
>>> the subject has generated
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
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>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Those descriptions look good
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 5:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:

> Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.
>
> Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous.
> Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
> differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
> discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.
>
> It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
> follows.
>
> canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used
> to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation,
> irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for
> small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain
> for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete
> or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
> industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
> using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
> Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.
>
> ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
> or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
> ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
> Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
> intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
> waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
> using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.
>
> Cheers,
> Eugene
>
> вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :
>
>> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
>> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
>> > this discussion?
>>
>> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
>> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
>> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
>> the subject has generated
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Warin]

Large means?
Small means?

To me I'd use small = I can step over it, large means I cannot step over 
it .. so ~1.1 metres is the line between the two.


On 30/01/19 19:56, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:

Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. 
Some people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others 
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry 
industrial discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.


It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions 
as follows.


canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways 
used to carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, 
irrigation or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch 
for small irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using 
waterway=drain for small usually lined superflous liquid drainage 
channels.


drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with 
concrete or similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain 
water or industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. 
Consider using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain 
nearby wet land. Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land 
drainage channels.


ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry 
land or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, 
drainage ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the 
land into them. Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway 
turning points or intersections with roads or paths to prevent 
erosion. Consider using waterway=canal for large irrigation or land 
drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for usually lined 
superflous liquid drainage channels.


Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc >:


Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created
or the
> wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself
based on
> this discussion?

maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails
that
the subject has generated
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Re: [Tagging] fence with wall base

[marc marc]

Le 30.01.19 à 09:41, Jérôme Seigneuret a écrit :
> How can I. edit a wall+fence with height details?
> barrier=wall;fence
> 0 is base of the barrier same as building

barrier=fence
barrier:height=1.50
barrier:type=chain_link

support=wall
support:height=0.50
support:material=masonry
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Re: [Tagging] Drain vs ditch

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Here is a summary of the discussion to check if there is a consensus.

Current definitions of artificial waterways are unclear and ambiguous. Some
people assume that ditch and drain differ mainly in size, others
differentiate them mainly on liquid type (can or cannot carry industrial
discharge), others rely on lined or unlined characteristic.

It is suggested to resolve the ambiguities by updating the definitions as
follows.

canal - Large man-made open flow (free flow vs pipe flow) waterways used to
carry useful water for transportation, hydro-power generation, irrigation
or land drainage purposes. Consider using waterway=ditch for small
irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider using waterway=drain for
small usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

drain - Small artificial free flow waterways usually lined with concrete or
similar used for carrying away superflous liquid like rain water or
industrial discharge without letting it soak into the ground. Consider
using waterway=ditch for unlined channels used to drain nearby wet land.
Consider using waterway=canal for large unlined land drainage channels.

ditch - Small artificial free flow waterways used for irrigating dry land
or draining wet land. Irrigation ditches can be lined or unlined, drainage
ditches are usually unlined to let water soak through the land into them.
Ditches may have short lined segments at waterway turning points or
intersections with roads or paths to prevent erosion. Consider using
waterway=canal for large irrigation or land drainage channels. Consider
using waterway=drain for usually lined superflous liquid drainage channels.

Cheers,
Eugene

вт, 29 янв. 2019 г. в 18:32, marc marc :

> Le 29.01.19 à 16:13, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > How to we proceed with this topic? Should a proposal be created or the
> > wiki pages can be updated straight away by someone or myself based on
> > this discussion?
>
> maybe it's a good idea to write a small-summary-only post
> to check if there is a consensus on this, because there are probably
> many participants who have dropped out given the number of emails that
> the subject has generated
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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[Tagging] fence with wall base

[Jérôme Seigneuret]

Hi,

How can I. edit a wall+fence with height details?

for exemple:
barrier=wall;fence
height=2
level=0

barrier:part:0=wall
barrier:part:0:height=0.50
barrier:part:0:material=masonry

barrier:part:1:fence
barrier:part:1:height=1.50
barrier:part:1:fence:type =chain_link

0 is base of the barrier same as building

My problem is parts are identical on 2D map so this is the same line. I
need key=value solution

Thanks for ideas and best practices
-- 
Cordialement,
Jérôme Seigneuret
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