Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi,

On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.

We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Oct 2, 2020, 19:56 by redouble...@outlook.de:

>
> The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“ that 
> are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
>
>
This would result in all "less professional" shops - from one selling herbs to 
one selling electronics
to use one shop value.

I also think that usual shop=* tagging is perfectly fine to be used on "less 
professional" shops, no
matter what kind of "less professional" we take.

>
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that in 
> front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of 
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>
>
>  
>
>
> Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I mean 
> is more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper store with 
> counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using 
> openeing_hours="by appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can 
> the goods be further specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can 
> (also) be bought in this shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was 
> created through breeding or was shot by the hunter)? I think these products 
> are not that typical for a shop = farm. Or the other way around: By using 
> shop=farm you cannot find any places (e.g. via overpass) where horse manure 
> can be bought.
>
>
There were some attempts to tag what is sold in a shop, product by product.

See https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org//search?q=sells or even weirder tag soup 
like
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/dried_fruits that I used twice.

Nothing really popular, but sells:horse_manure=yes can be used

>
> I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the 
> name „direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)
>
>
Do not attempt to put different shop types in one shop tag

"honey can be obtained directly from the beekeeper"

shop=honey seems to fit
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dhoney

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dbeekeeper
even recommends 
"The beekeeper might sell their products from their workplace, use shop=honey 
in this case."


"game from the forester"

sounds like shop=butcher (not sure,  never encountered something like that)
craft=hunter (???)

>  
>
> Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with direct_marketing=*. 
> Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something like „game“ and 
> „horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of course the 
> challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.
>
>
"direct marketing" in English means something specific - see.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_marketing

direct_sale_from_producer=yes ()

>  
>
> Thanks
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Von: > Niels Elgaard Larsen 
>  > Gesendet: > Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
>  > An: > tagging@openstreetmap.org
>  > Betreff: > Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> Wieland Kestler:
>  > Hi everyone!
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal 
> for tagging
>  > points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.
>  
>  What does "directly" mean?
>  
>  That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is 
> not
>  allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat 
> when you
>  pick it up.
>  
>  shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling 
> deer meat
>  that have all the deers inside a big fence.
>  
>  shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
>  I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from 
> wild horses.
>  
>  As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the 
> "opening_hours" and
>  "seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" 
> if there
>  is not a shop infrastructure.
>  
>  >  
>  > 
>  > For more details see the proposal page:
>  > >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>  > 
>  > For comments use the discussion page:
>  > >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Tanks!
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > Wieland
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  >  
>  > 
>  > 
>  > ___
>  > Tagging mailing list
>  > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>  > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>  > 
>  
>  
>  -- 
>  Niels Elgaard Larsen
>  
>  ___
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>
>
>
>
>  
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Matthew Woehlke

On 02/10/2020 14.27, stevea wrote:

Wieland, I don't have good answers to offer to you for your other
questions.  However, I would say (as others have) that
"direct_marketing" absolutely IS "confusing," I go so far as to say
"incorrect" in these circumstances.  The term "direct_marketing" is
used in various dialects of English around the world as meaning
something wholly different than your proposed usage here.


To that end, perhaps something along the lines of "ad_hoc" would be less 
confusing...


--
Matthew

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread stevea
Wieland, I don't have good answers to offer to you for your other questions.  
However, I would say (as others have) that "direct_marketing" absolutely IS 
"confusing," I go so far as to say "incorrect" in these circumstances.  The 
term "direct_marketing" is used in various dialects of English around the world 
as meaning something wholly different than your proposed usage here.  So, I 
(and others) ask you to please deprecate any consideration of using the tag 
"direct_marketing" in your proposal.

Good luck crafting the correct set of tags you strive to achieve to describe 
the set of semantics you have.  This is often not easy work, as you have 
discovered.  However, with some effort (collaboration with others helps, this 
discussion list is a good start) it can be done.  You might need a combination 
of existing tags, perhaps a combination of new tags or new values on existing 
tags, but such "syntax crafting" (tag development with thoughtful key:value 
pairs and how to use them) is often long and somewhat difficult work, 
especially to gain first understanding and then consensus among our community.  
Take into account "what already is" in OSM, and if you seem to need to "tag 
your way around this" you might be on the wrong track.  But if you find a 
certain harmony with existing tags, keep working in that direction as it is 
often a more correct track, especially for people to understand.  And often, 
with understanding comes acceptance and then wider use.

SteveA

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 18:57, Wieland Kestler  wrote:

>
>
> The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“
> that are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
>

A shop is a shop.  You go there to buy something.  The opening hours may
be erratic; it may frequently run out of stock; the staff may be surly - it
doesn't matter, it's still a shop.


> Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I
> mean is more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper
> store with counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using
> openeing_hours="by appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can
> the goods be further specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can
> (also) be bought in this shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was
> created through breeding or was shot by the hunter)? I think these products
> are not that typical for a shop = farm. Or the other way around: By using
> shop=farm you cannot find any places (e.g. via overpass) where horse manure
> can be bought.
>

product=horse_manure+produce=honey;eggs;game

-- 
Paul


>
> I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the
> name „direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)
>
>
>
> Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with
> direct_marketing=*. Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something
> like „game“ and „horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of
> course the challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> *Von: *Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> *Gesendet: *Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
> *An: *tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Betreff: *Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)
>
>
>
> Wieland Kestler:
> > Hi everyone!
> >
> >
> >
> > Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
> for tagging
> > points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.
>
> What does "directly" mean?
>
> That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is
> not
> allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat
> when you
> pick it up.
>
> shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling
> deer meat
> that have all the deers inside a big fence.
>
> shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
> I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from
> wild horses.
>
> As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the
> "opening_hours" and
> "seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment"
> if there
> is not a shop infrastructure.
>
> >
> >
> > For more details see the proposal page:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> >
> > For comments use the discussion page:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> >
> >
> >
> > Tanks!
> >
> >
> >
> > Wieland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
>
>
> --
> Niels Elgaard Larsen
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Wieland Kestler
Hi!

thanks for the comments so far. I think I have to clarify something at this 
point, as I have the feeling that the discussion is going in the wrong 
direction or that the proposal is being misunderstood (I may not have been able 
to express it precisely enough, soory if so).

The aim of this proposal is to establish a new tag for a type of „shops“ that 
are way less professional as the „normal“ shops.
I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that in 
front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of 
„selfmadeness“ does not matter.

Thanks also for the ideas around the tag shop=farm. But I think, what I mean is 
more specific. If I would use shop=farm I would expect a proper store with 
counter and staff. I think the idea of improving it by using openeing_hours="by 
appointment" is a good objection. Problem here: How can the goods be further 
specified? How can it be stated that horse manure can (also) be bought in this 
shop=farm? Or game (regardless of whether it was created through breeding or 
was shot by the hunter)? I think these products are not that typical for a shop 
= farm. Or the other way around: By using shop=farm you cannot find any places 
(e.g. via overpass) where horse manure can be bought.

I hope at this Point it is clear what is meant by the proposal. (Maybe the name 
„direct_marketing“ is confusing – feel free to make suggestions)

Another idea I like is to use craft=* in combination with direct_marketing=*. 
Inquiry here: which values you want to use? Something like „game“ and 
„horse_dung“ (separated by semikolon) or just „yes“? And of course the 
challenge here is to find a „craft“-value for all issues.

Thanks

Von: Niels Elgaard Larsen
Gesendet: Freitag, 2. Oktober 2020 13:44
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

Wieland Kestler:
> Hi everyone!
>
>
>
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging
> points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.

What does "directly" mean?

That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is not
allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat when 
you
pick it up.

shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling deer 
meat
that have all the deers inside a big fence.

shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from wild 
horses.

As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the "opening_hours" 
and
"seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" if 
there
is not a shop infrastructure.

>
>
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
>
>
>
> Tanks!
>
>
>
> Wieland
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


--
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (funeral hall=*)

2020-10-02 Thread wolle68

Dear list,

Please vote on the following proposal:

A building or room for funeral ceremonies ancillary to a funeral 
directors shop or a crematorium (subtag)


Proposal page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/funeral_hall%3D*
Discussion page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/funeral_hall%3D*


Thanks!

Vollis

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen
Wieland Kestler:
> Hi everyone!
> 
>  
> 
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging
> points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the forester.

What does "directly" mean?

That forester probably did not shoot the animal himself. He most likely is not
allowed to butcher it. And it might not actually be him selling the meat when 
you
pick it up.

shop=farm might be a stretch for game, although I do know a place selling deer 
meat
that have all the deers inside a big fence.

shop=farm is already used for eggs and honey.
I would also assume that horse dung being sold usually does not come from wild 
horses.

As for shop=farm not being permanently available, we have the "opening_hours" 
and
"seasonal" tags. We can also use shop=farm,openeing_hours="by appointment" if 
there
is not a shop infrastructure.

>  
> 
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
>  
> 
> Tanks!
> 
>  
> 
> Wieland
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2

2020-10-02 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 09:18, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> Am Fr., 2. Okt. 2020 um 10:01 Uhr schrieb St Niklaas :
>
>> Whats wrong with shop=farm,
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.05459/5.15648
>>
>
> for a hunter? Farming and hunting are 2 different kinds of professions at
> least since Cain and Abel. ;-)
>

As with everything we map, there can be grey areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildlife_farming
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_farm

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Andy Townsend

On 02/10/2020 08:58, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 10/1/20 14:46, Wieland Kestler wrote:

Hi everyone!

  


Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
for tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from
the forester.

  


For more details see the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing



At least in the US, "direct marketing" usually refers to things like
infomercials or mail advertising campaigns. Such a shop would typically
not be mapped as such.


It also means that in the UK.

I'd suggest shop=farm, as another commenter has already suggested.

Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2

2020-10-02 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 2. Okt. 2020 um 10:01 Uhr schrieb St Niklaas :

> Whats wrong with shop=farm,
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.05459/5.15648
>


for a hunter? Farming and hunting are 2 different kinds of professions at
least since Cain and Abel. ;-)

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2

2020-10-02 Thread St Niklaas
Hi Wieland,

Whats wrong with shop=farm,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.05459/5.15648
This is not the only one and they all are mraked with a sign or a flag or 
alike, with different products. Up till even meat, eggs and milk.
So whats the advantage of a new tag besides shop ?

Greetz

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Shawn K. Quinn
On 10/1/20 14:46, Wieland Kestler wrote:
> Hi everyone!
> 
>  
> 
> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal
> for tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from
> the forester.
> 
>  
> 
> For more details see the proposal page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
> 
> For comments use the discussion page:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing

At least in the US, "direct marketing" usually refers to things like
infomercials or mail advertising campaigns. Such a shop would typically
not be mapped as such.

shop=direct_marketing places too much emphasis on the method of sale
versus what is sold (which is the usual purpose of a shop=* tag), and
also is misleading in this case.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 2. Oct 2020, at 08:53, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> "direct marketing" using shop key
> means that there is no way to tag
> shop type in an usual way (in a shop key)


+1, it would better be a property than a shop type. Still it leaves the 
question open how much proper work the facility has to invest in order to make 
it “their own” product. Someone selling bread would be direct marketing if they 
sold bread for which they made the dough? Do they also have to grow the cereal, 
harvest it and grind it? Do they have to produce their own yeast or may they 
buy it? Provided there is salt in the dough, will it have to be extracted by 
themselves or may they buy it?
And on the other end, someone finishing the bread baking from semi baked 
industrial bread out of a factory, can they be called direct marketers?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - electricity:source

2020-10-02 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
In that case you want to tag what is signed,
not actual electricity source.

marked_as_green_energy=*

marked_as_renewable_energy=*

is verifiable and does not require
- impossible for mapper - verification
of an actual energy source

29 wrz 2020, 22:28 od lrich...@posteo.de:

>
> Hi Colin, 
>
>
> I agree that while a few suppliers source all of their  electricity from 
> renewable sources, most simply add a surcharge  which is used to fund the 
> growth of renewable energy  infrastructure and price the electricity as 
> if it were coming from  solely renewable energy sources. I'm working on 
> an article for  Wikipedia that will explain green pricing tariffs in 
> detail as  this seems to be lacking in English. 
>
>
> Arguing if the definiton of 'green electricity' is actually  'green' is 
> not the point, this is already a term that is  explicitly advertised at 
> the charging stations or camp sites (see  images in proposal) and also 
> something that consumers look for as  they want to fund renewable 
> energies in the hope that all grid  energy will be completely 'renewable' 
> in future. While this  obviously won't be for at least 15-50 years 
> depending on who you  ask, I think it is a worthwhile attribute to map as 
> some people  are conscious of what types of electricity generation they 
> wish to  support. 
>
>
> Best, Lukas
>
>
>
>
> On 29/09/2020 16:56, Colin Smale wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Lukas,
>>
>>
>> You do realise that all electricity is the same, irrespectiveof how 
>> it is generated? The "greenness" or otherwise is notdetermined by 
>> the connection, but by the subscription/contractthat the consumer 
>> has with their supplier.
>>
>>
>> UNLESS they have a standalone generating capability, like PV orwind 
>> turbine that is not connected to the grid.
>>
>>
>> On 2020-09-29 16:00, Lukas Richert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to propose a new tag that defines the source of  publicly 
>>> available electricity: >>> electricity:source 
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> This could be used as an additional information tag on  amenities 
>>> that provide electricity for public consumption,  such as bike/car 
>>> charging stations or camp sites. Many  charging stations have 
>>> nearby solar or use green pricing  tariffs. I've also seen camp 
>>> sites and harbours advertise  this.
>>>
>>>
>>> This topic came up as a group wanted to plan a bike tour  using 
>>> e-bikes but only with renewable energy. I noticed that  there 
>>> appears to be no easy way to filter for the source of  the 
>>> electricity provided.
>>>
>>>
>>> Potential discussion: It's not quite clear to me whether  
>>> power_supply or electricity is preferred for this type of  
>>> application. It might also be interesting for consumers to see  
>>> which buildings are powered by green electricity if this is  
>>> something a store or similar advertises. So it may be worth  
>>> expanding the proposal to electricity used by the public even  if 
>>> not directly available (e.g. lighting in a store).
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Lukas
>>>  
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

2020-10-02 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
"direct marketing" using shop keymeans that there is no way to tag
shop type in an usual way (in a shop key)

1 paź 2020, 21:46 od redouble...@outlook.de:

>
> Hi everyone!
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> Due to the discussion in the german OSM-Telegram-group I made a proposal for 
> tagging points where people can buy e.g. game (meat) directly from the 
> forester.
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> For more details see the proposal page: >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
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> For comments use the discussion page: >  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/shop%3Ddirect_marketing
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>  
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> Tanks!
>
>
>  
>
>
> Wieland
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>
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