Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-27 13:33 GMT+01:00 Paul Allen :

>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
>> who has learnt printing as a profession
>>
>
> There are two possibilities for a printer (as in typographic presses and
> the people who run them).
>
> One possibility is office=printer.  The wiki says that office is a place
> of business where administrative or professional
> work is carried out.  It sells services not goods (some printers may also
> sell stationery supplies or pre-printed items
> but that's a sideline) so it's office rather than shop.
>


actually shop=* is about a (public facing) place selling retail goods or
services. E.g. shop=haircutter, shop=tailor, shop=beauty, shop=massage,
shop=tattoo, shop=car_repair, shop=bookmaker, shop=funeral_directors,
shop=laundry, shop=travel_agency, etc.

I agree that office=printer could also make sense (it's actually used 8
times, there are also 25 office=printing, 8 office=print and 2
office=print_shop).
Offices in OSM generally are places you don't just drop by (compare e.g.
amenity=bank with office=bank), if they are accessible you would normally
need an appointment.




> And office fits a lot better than craft or amenity.
>



craft was introduced because of the existence of relicts from past times
e.g. in Germany concerning the education (and certification) of certain
(regulated, or formerly regulated) professions and arts (e.g by the chamber
of commerce and industry, "chamber of crafts", guilds, etc.). In this
context, craft=* means the person/company offering a service is certified
(and should be qualified, will work according to current standards, etc.)
by an official entity (could be private).

Another possibility is building=industrial.  Most jobbing printers have
> large, noisy machinery.
>


building=industrial is a tag about an industrial building. Not a very good
tag IMHO, I'd like to know more about the structure and would prefer
something like building=production_hall, or building=warehouse over a very
generic "industrial". Still, this is not about anything happening inside
the building. In case of these bigger printing facilities, I'd consider
using man_made=works (we should take care to distinguish those plants that
do print from those that produce printing machinery though).
Those bigger facilities often consist of more than one building, and they
also often have open space for parking and loading.


Both may apply to the same building.  Most jobbing printers have some sort
> of office where they deal with customers
> and a lot of machinery.
>

Please distinguish between "building" and what is happening in the building
(and outside of it on the grounds). Those are orthogonal, will often have
different details (e.g. start_date, name).

Cheers,
Martin

>
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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Marc Gemis]

How does the tag shop=copyshop with service:print=yes/no and
service:press=yes/no, service:self=yes/no  etc. fits into this ?

see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop, it's used
about 14.500 times

m.



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :
>>
>> On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> > IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a
>> > person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
>> >
>> > For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service
>> > I’d use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop
>> > should be used for businesses offering products or services.
>>
>> shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
>> paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.
>
>
>
> Actually I proposed shop=printing_service, this makes it clear it is about
> someone printing for you. printer_service sounds like a place you can bring
> your printer for service.
>
>
>>
>>
>> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>
>
>
>
> no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
> who has learnt printing as a profession.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
>> craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
>> craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.
>>
>> Maybe these could be merged into something
>
>
>
>
> as long as you don't know for sure what these are, you shouldn't merge them.
> It may take some time, but we are generally confident that it will all work
> out some day ;-)
> While there aren't well defined, documented tags it is clear that different,
> similar tags come up, and some will eventually make it, others will sooner
> or later be merged or tags added (when there are definitions and someone has
> checked on the ground that the objects fall into the category).
>
> If you want to speed up this process, you can prepare a proposal for one or
> more of the features we are talking here.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> 2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :
>
>
>>
>> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>>
>
> no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
> who has learnt printing as a profession
>

There are two possibilities for a printer (as in typographic presses and
the people who run them).

One possibility is office=printer.  The wiki says that office is a place of
business where administrative or professional
work is carried out.  It sells services not goods (some printers may also
sell stationery supplies or pre-printed items
but that's a sideline) so it's office rather than shop.  And office fits a
lot better than craft or amenity.  Taginfo says
office=printer has been used 8 times (I'm responsible for one of them).

Another possibility is building=industrial.  Most jobbing printers have
large, noisy machinery.

Both may apply to the same building.  Most jobbing printers have some sort
of office where they deal with customers
and a lot of machinery.

Disclaimer: my father was a printer.  He was a LaserJet IV.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-02-27 11:37 GMT+01:00 Fredrik :

> On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a
> person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
> >
> > For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service
> I’d use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop
> should be used for businesses offering products or services.
>
> shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
> paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.
>


Actually I proposed shop=printing_service, this makes it clear it is about
someone printing for you. printer_service sounds like a place you can bring
your printer for service.



>
> With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc.
>



no, craft is about a profession, so this is about the workplace of someone
who has learnt printing as a profession.



>
> I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
> craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
> craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.
>
> Maybe these could be merged into something




as long as you don't know for sure what these are, you shouldn't merge
them. It may take some time, but we are generally confident that it will
all work out some day ;-)
While there aren't well defined, documented tags it is clear that
different, similar tags come up, and some will eventually make it, others
will sooner or later be merged or tags added (when there are definitions
and someone has checked on the ground that the objects fall into the
category).

If you want to speed up this process, you can prepare a proposal for one or
more of the features we are talking here.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Fredrik]

On 27/02/2018 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a 
> person, and amenity doesn’t provide context.
>
> For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service I’d 
> use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop should be 
> used for businesses offering products or services.

shop=printer_service sounds nice. I'm guessing the ink shops also sell
paper and I guess "printer" is ambiguous.

Its not very clear that a "printer service" shop sells ink cartridges,
but that can be explained in the description or on the wiki etc.

With craft=printer you mean a print shop? Posters, books, etc. 

I see existing shop=printshop (66 uses), craft=printshop ( 10 uses),
craft=print_shop (119) and craft=print (6 uses) and there is also 1
craft=print_finishers, whatever that is.

Maybe these could be merged into something

--

FredrikLindseth


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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Feb 2018, at 14:27, Johnparis  wrote:
> 
> To Thilo's questions:
> 
> 1) amenity=printer is for an establishment that offers printing services. It 
> is not a shop that sells printers.


IMHO this is not a good tag, because “printer” can mean a machine or a person, 
and amenity doesn’t provide context.

For the person/profession, “craft=printer” seems better, for the service I’d 
use shop=printing_service or sth. similar and less ambiguous. Shop should be 
used for businesses offering products or services.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Warin]

'Service' is not the best word, I think you want 'sells'.
The primary thing most shops do is sell things.
Example: a cafe 'sells' coffee, but might provide wifi as a 'service' to 
attract customers.

sells:computers=yes

sells:computer_parts=yes ?

repairs:computers=yes (repairs may already exist for bicycles)

rents:computers=yes (rents too may already exist, possibly for bicycles)

Note the order ... I think that what is sold should be prefixed with sells 
rather than suffixed.



On 24-Feb-18 10:53 PM, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:

Hello all,

instead of debating every single shop (details),
I'm in favor of using a name scheme which applies to all (kind "grammar"
for it).

In the context of the printer_ink shop discussion I stumbled on the
"service" tags of
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop

IMHO service:computer=yes/no or service:phone=yes/no
doesn't make sense at all, as nobody knows WHICH "service" is meant.
It would be better to take the "main" tag (of shop=*) as the leading item,
such as
computer:sales=yes/no
computer:parts=yes/no
computer:repair=yes/no
computer:rental=yes/no
computer:[whateverrismeantby"service"]=yes/no

...and to use this scheme for all shop services.

Cheers,
Thilo



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Re: [Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Johnparis]

 ink on taginfo [1] and saw they
>> were split in three.
>>
>> shop=ink (42)
>>
>> shop=ink_cartridge (13)
>>
>> shop=printer_ink (12)
>>
>> I created this wikipage [2] for shop=printer_ink and was wondering what
>> the list thinks.
>>
>> shop=printer_ink sounds the clearest in meaning of the three and the
>> other values should be converted to this.



--

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:03:49 +1000
From: Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefi...@gmail.com>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
<tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Shops that sell printer ink cartridges
Message-ID:
<CAP4zaXryap2jmmD0cpjX+=uirfv3o9nx5btsjfszb6ebcln...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On 24 February 2018 at 06:46, Tom Pfeifer <t.pfei...@computer.org> wrote:

> On 23.02.2018 14:42, Thilo Haug wrote:
>
>> IMHO there are no shops selling BUT printer ink, so a subtag might be
>> more useful :
>>
>
> Not sure what the "but" means in your sentence. If you doubt that there
> are shops being specialized in selling nothing but ink, I know some.
>
> printer:ink=sales
>> printer:ink=refill
>> printer:repair=yes
>> printer:sales=yes
>>
>> and so on...
>>
>
> The "and so on" indicates the problem. I am against turning OSM into a
> shop inventory or an ontology of all products on the planet. I agree with
> Frederik below and his shop=printer_ink favourite.


I can back Tom up here - I know of one business in our area (& there are
*many* others) who's warehouse is full of nothing but printer cartridges -
they don't sell or repair printers & I don't think they even refill
cartridges, they just sell them!

+1 to Fredrick's  shop=printer_ink
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 23:51:48 +
From: marc marc <marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>
To: "tagging@openstreetmap.org" <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Shops that sell printer ink cartridges
Message-ID:
<VI1P190MB03841C8B1AEA8944E1847A9CB7CC0@VI1P190MB0384.
EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> On 24 February 2018 at 06:46, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> I am against turning OSM into a shop inventory

In fact, you're still making an inventory in shop=*
so the question is not if we need to do it but how.

Listing all possible values in shop=* means that each tool
must provide a sorting by category if it wants to organize
the data and make life harder for the majority of shop that
have more than one product..
a schema like shop=first_level + first_level=second_level etc.,
avoiding the need for each application to do so.

Regards,
Marc

--

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:39:49 +0100
From: Thilo Haug OSM <th...@gmx.de>
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Shops that sell printer ink cartridges
Message-ID: <a9d3d909-b388-b2bd-a1cf-ae2179228...@gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

I didn't get the point of this comment,
do you got an example ?

Am 24.02.2018 um 00:51 schrieb marc marc:
> Listing all possible values in shop=* means that each tool
> must provide a sorting by category if it wants to organize
> the data and make life harder for the majority of shop that
> have more than one product..
> a schema like shop=first_level + first_level=second_level etc.,
> avoiding the need for each application to do so.
Regarding
"I am against turning OSM into a shop inventory or an ontology of all
products on the planet. I agree with Frederik below and his
shop=printer_ink favourite." :

I didn't want to propose to list all products (or even variants of them)
of a shop=supermarket, shop=doityourself or shop=electronics,
just to give a possibility to mention another "main shop" is also
providing this "service" (or product) of a "specialised" one
(In OSM usually done by a namespace, example : social_facility).
I think the number of shops that are specialised in only one
product/service is much lower than that of shops providing several.
Example : shop=seafood (may be sold by a variety of other shops).

So IMHO the goal of this discussion is to find those attributes (or
services) which apply to several shops and are of general interest.

In the "seafood" example it's the question whether this needs to be
split up in types of seafood or not, but time will show if people feel
the need.
But this might be solved by simply offering seafood:type=* (not to 

[Tagging] "service" tags in general (for shops)

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

instead of debating every single shop (details),
I'm in favor of using a name scheme which applies to all (kind "grammar"
for it).

In the context of the printer_ink shop discussion I stumbled on the
"service" tags of
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcopyshop

IMHO service:computer=yes/no or service:phone=yes/no
doesn't make sense at all, as nobody knows WHICH "service" is meant.
It would be better to take the "main" tag (of shop=*) as the leading item,
such as
computer:sales=yes/no
computer:parts=yes/no
computer:repair=yes/no
computer:rental=yes/no
computer:[whateverrismeantby"service"]=yes/no

...and to use this scheme for all shop services.

Cheers,
Thilo



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