Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 3 August 2010 05:51, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: We've seen recently how people responding to disasters have used OSM data on handheld devices - someone right now could quite possibly be using such a map to try and deal with, say, the floods in Pakistan. If that map is suddenly missing hospitals what are they to do? Similar hacks to what they did in Haiti I suspect, use what ever tags render, like camping sites, which are really refugee camps... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 3 August 2010 10:46, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Similar hacks to what they did in Haiti I suspect, use what ever tags render, like camping sites, which are really refugee camps... Haiti is the antithesis of OSM tagging. Sure, the initial few hours had tagging for the renderer, but the community got together fairly quickly with the CrisisMappers community to develop preset groups that were specifically designed for crisis response. Additionally, new renderers specific to the cause (rendering the crisis-specific tags) came up as there was demand. This is how it should be. I would use Haiti as an example of what to do, not what NOT to do. So you are effectively saying things can change quickly? I don't think I remember hearing about all the problems people seem to be complaining about, must have missed that thread. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Total time 6 minutes Hundreds of hours, yeah right. What you have given is an absolute minimum time for someone who already understands to actually edit the files. You've skipped research, testing and deployment. The program I've been talking about uses osm2pgsql and mapnik so I'm well aware of them. If your smart you could probably add the emergency data without having to totally rerun osm2pgsql. Smart takes time to think about / time to code. You don't seem to have included any time for it in your 6 minutes. Also as you say you are well aware of osm2pgsql and mapnik, you might even say expert. So your 6 minutes is the time for an expert to make the changes - most people are not experts. Let me give you an alternate time-line at the other end of the scale: Receive and read bug report that map symbol for police no longer appears (2 min) Research why it no longer appears (20 minutes of reading wiki and mailing lists) Research on how to add emergency to the database (20 more minutes of reading the wiki) Deicide on process to fix bug (10 minute meeting between developer and server admin) Produce patch to fix issue (we'll go with your 6 min) Re-import database - this person doesn't understand osm well enough to do something 'clever' (20 min monitoring over a few days) Test (2 min) Work out why it doesn't appear (5 min - your patch is actually very slightly wrong btw, can you spot your mistake?) Test (2 min) Deploy to live server (another 20 min monitoring) Retest (2 min) Close bug (2 min) Total time: as near to 2 hours as makes no difference. Let's say the average is an hour - I think it's fair some people will do it in 10 minutes, some will will spend 2 hours trying to work out what to change and another hour on IRC asking for help! Let's say there are 100 people using mapnik / osm in the world - I'm sure it's more than that :) 1 * 100 = 100 hours just on mapnik. However the above is just for fun - lets replace my original statement with 'a lot of time' and move on... -- Brian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
Work out why it doesn't appear (5 min - your patch is actually very slightly wrong btw, can you spot your mistake?) Spotted my friday afternoon coding did you. Glad to see someones on the ball!! However the above is just for fun - lets replace my original statement with 'a lot of time' and move on... Sounds sensible to me, I'm busy tracing new nearmap imagery. -- Cheers Ross ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 22:47, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Sounds sensible to me, I'm busy tracing new nearmap imagery. With extremely useful changeset comments? :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: Discussing this for a day on the Tagging list is not enough for you to make this change. How much time should it take? I didn't really set a dead line but was trying to get comments on the idea... A change that breaks every editor / renderer / search data user ? I don't understand this argument. Doesn't every tag change anywhere break every editor/renderer/search/data user whether or not you think it is correct? John has just as much right to go change all the amenity= tags to something more specific as you do to keep them the same. Data consumers of all kinds need to accept both kinds of changes. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Toby Murray wrote: Then I guess a question would be would pharmacies be medical=pharmacy or remain shop=pharmacy? When I visited Holland (probably before you lot were born) the pharmacy sold only pharmaceuticals. It would be a medical=pharmacy. In Australia the pharmaceuticals are at the back of the shop, behind cosmetics, perfumes, cameras and accessories, possibly even soap powder on special. They are shop=pharmacy. Tucked inside the hospital is a real dispensary, medical=pharmacy. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
I don't understand this argument. Doesn't every tag change anywhere break every editor/renderer/search/data user whether or not you think it is correct? John has just as much right to go change all the amenity= tags to something more specific as you do to keep them the same. Data consumers of all kinds need to accept both kinds of changes. Every Smartphone OSM data consumer I've looked at has been unusable because of tagging interpretation. Compared to OSM, data consumers seem to be very inflexible and unaware of any but the most rigid tag schemes that haven't changed in the past year. In other words, about 30% of mapping labor goes to waste because it's impossible for consumers to keep up. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
Just to drag things back on topic, so far most claims seem to be vague and generalised, however the original proposal about shifting police and fire into an emergency category doesn't seem to have many/any of the draw backs of most POIs most people are going to search for most of the time. Suppose things did move forward initially with dual tagging with a 3, 6 or even 12 month time frame, most databases would need to be reimported in that time frame because vacuuming seems to take as long or longer than reimporting. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
Well done. Pretty much none of the others do. I look forward to your
patches :)
Heres the patch for the default.style for osm2pgsql
node,way emergency text nocache,polygon
Wasn't worth a diff patch as it's only one line. (30 seconds)
Mapnik for instance has manual rules - they will need to be changed.
Worse than that osm2pgsql (the import tool) only imports certain keys
so implementing emergency=* requires a complete reimport of the
database - about 30 hours even on very good hardware. Then the
changes need to be tested and deployed. I can get to 3 or 4 hours of
actual developed work without even trying.
Probably should have used a diff patch but anyway heres a new file for mapnik
rules in inc/ dir (5 minutes most of which was spent getting a copy of mapnik
from svn)
Could be called layer-emergency-points.xml.inc
---
Style
Rule
maxscale_zoom17;
Filter[emergency]='ambulance_station'/Filter
PointSymbolizer file=symbols;/ambulance.p.16.png /
/Rule
Rule
maxscale_zoom17;
Filter[emergency]='police_station'/Filter
PointSymbolizer file=symbols;/police.p.16.png /
/Rule
Rule
maxscale_zoom17;
Filter[emergency]='fire_station'/Filter
PointSymbolizer file=symbols;/firestation.p.16.png /
/Rule
/Style
Layer name=emergency-points status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNamepoints/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table
(select
way,amenity,shop,tourism,highway,man_made,access,religion,waterway,lock,historic,emergency
from prefix;_point
where emergency is not null
or shop is not null
or tourism in
('alpine_hut','camp_site','caravan_site','guest_house','hostel','hotel','museum','viewpoint')
or highway in ('bus_stop','traffic_signals','ford')
or man_made in ('mast','water_tower')
or historic='memorial'
or waterway='lock'
or lock='yes'
) as points/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
Layer name=emergency-points-poly status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNamepoints/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table
(select
way,amenity,shop,tourism,highway,man_made,access,religion,waterway,lock,historic,emergency
from prefix;_polygon
where emergency is not null
or shop is not null
or tourism in
('alpine_hut','camp_site','caravan_site','guest_house','hostel','hotel','museum','viewpoint')
or highway in ('bus_stop','traffic_signals')
or man_made in ('mast','water_tower')
or historic='memorial'
) as points/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
And now the osm.xml file (30 seconds)
Rule
Filter[amenity] = 'police'/Filter
maxscale_zoom17;
TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=10
fill=#734a08 dy=10 halo_radius=1 wrap_width=30/
/Rule
Rule
Filter[amenity] = 'fire_station'/Filter
maxscale_zoom17;
TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=10
fill=#734a08 dy=9 halo_radius=1 wrap_width=30/
/Rule
replaced by
Rule
Filter[emergency] = 'police_station'/Filter
maxscale_zoom17;
TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=10
fill=#734a08 dy=10 halo_radius=1 wrap_width=30/
/Rule
Rule
Filter[emercency] = 'fire_station'/Filter
maxscale_zoom17;
TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=10
fill=#734a08 dy=9 halo_radius=1 wrap_width=30/
/Rule
Total time 6 minutes
Hundreds of hours, yeah right.
The program I've been talking about uses osm2pgsql and mapnik so I'm well aware
of them.
If your smart you could probably add the emergency data without having to
totally rerun osm2pgsql.
--
Cheers
Ross
___
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.comwrote: While I follow this mailing list, I am pretty sure that many people working in the OSM ecosystem is not following the change that fast. It means that every one doing an app needs to do some significant work to make sure that those new settings are taken into consideration. In the meantime, you have effectively broken many applications, which is something which is very bad. Not that I agree with the tags or the way that OP went about the change (I've already reverted the majority of his changes in my area), but the fact that your applications break when someone changes a tag is a sign that something larger is wrong with the system than a simple amenity/emergency tag change. The OSM ecosystem has always strongly favored ease of mapping (as opposed to ease of data consumption), but now that more data consumers are attempting to use our data maybe it's time to start thinking about how we can firm things up a little bit to give the data consumers something solid to work with. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 03:43, Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Here's an example of a change you claim you haven't made: No, I claimed to have made those, as I pointed out to you in a previous reply, what exactly was so important about these locations that no one could be bothered to spend 2 seconds making a wiki page for? What did the tag actually mean, people seem to care so much about the what and why of changeset comments, but not documenting the what and why of tags? double standards? This includes private or charity stations which are not emergency stations. Again, they were documented so how was anyone supposed to know that or differentiated between the ones that are? Global changes like this without discussion can only be regarded as vandalism. What is poor and no documentation then? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 31 July 2010 03:34, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: It appears that you have indeed made lots of changes in the database before discussing on the list: e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/771625043/history Hmmm thought I fixed that by reverting that changeset... I'll fix it now thanks for pointing out my oversight. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:05:19 +0100 Emilie Laffray emilie.laff...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 July 2010 16:26, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Total time 6 minutes Hundreds of hours, yeah right. The program I've been talking about uses osm2pgsql and mapnik so I'm well aware of them. If your smart you could probably add the emergency data without having to totally rerun osm2pgsql. I think you are missing the point that Brian was making. If the data has to change dramatically, it means one or two man weeks to do the change at work for our engine at work. The change in itself is simple, but that means testing if none were missing, that everything is running fine, regenerating a database earlier than expected which in itself takes a significant amount of time. Testing is something quite important and we have tons of test to make sure that the database is working as expected before we release to production. I'm well aware of this, but if your app is robust then the changes should not be that much of an issue and the testing should only be minor. The garbage point Brian was making is exactly that garbage. If you make statements like it'll be hundreds of developer hours to modify apps then you need to be able to back it up with facts. Why would you have to regenerate the database earlier than expected? If you regenerate the database on a regular basis then it could wait for the next routine regeneration. It does not have to be done immediately, that was the point of initially duplicating the tags and then after a sufficient time then remove the duplicated amenity tags. However, I don't like those tags, as they don't really make sense in many cases. Before rushing, we should really evaluate a bit more if they make sense. Then show why and where they don't make sense rather than carrying on about possible broken apps. From my point of view the tags make perfect sense, if I have an emergency and I need police, fire or ambulance assistance then I'll look for emergency rather than amenity. I've shown how quickly the two apps described by Brian can be updated quickly, it does not take much more effort than that. -- Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
Discussing this for a day on the Tagging list is not enough for you to make this change. How much time should it take? I didn't really set a dead line but was trying to get comments on the idea... A change that breaks every editor / renderer / search data user ? 6 months minimum before you change any data IMO. And that is a minimum if lots of people seem to think it is a good idea. Better yet - just don't change it. This sort of change just isn't worth the pain and hundreds of developer hours that could be better spent on moving the project forward. Yes - this sort of change might make the tag heirachy prettier - but not enough to justify the work. If you choose to use this new tag no-one will stop you - it won't work, render or do anything but no-one will stop you. The moment you start destroying other peoples work though you are a vandal. BTW - commenting on a message you just sent. amenity=ambulance_station will work for search automatically, emergency=ambulance_station won't because it isn't supported - lets hope that isn't important to any of the users who's data you just broke. -- Brian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 30 July 2010 04:09, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: I don't understand this argument. Doesn't every tag change anywhere break every editor/renderer/search/data user whether or not you think it is correct? It's slightly amusing how it comes up every now and then about what to do about depreciating tags to make the data more consistent/useful, except when someone tries to do something about it then it's a bad idea :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
On 30 July 2010 04:54, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: If there IS a change for medical stuff, I would personally rather see the medical=* proposal be used. At this stage it'd be nice to sort out the emergency=* issue before trying to tackle anything else :) I agree with Chris that it probably isn't a good idea to stick hospital under emergency=* since not all hospitals have an ER... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] emergency=*
Better yet - just don't change it. This sort of change just isn't worth the pain and hundreds of developer hours that could be better spent on moving the project forward. Yes - this sort of change might make the tag heirachy prettier - but not enough to justify the work. Garbage. It's not hundred of hours of developer work to change this. If the renderer programming is up to scratch then it should be able to automatically accept changes like this. One of the programs I have done some development on has this built in. In the case of amenity=police. The program scans the icon directory for all icons on start up. Before rendering it then checks to see if it has a matching icon to amenity=police. If it does then it renders that icon, if not then it renders the parent icon, ie amenity. If it's changed to emergency=police_station The renderer does not require any change, the only changes required are moving the amenity=police icon to be the emergency=police_station icon (which is a 30 second job) and creating an appropriate emergency parent icon (and there's probably something already there we can use). The program code to do this is approximately 100 lines of c including white space and comments. -- Cheers Ross ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
