Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 15:18, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd suggest talking to the users concerned - the easiest way is via a 
> changeset discussion comment.  If they're unsure what road category to 
> use, you can point at other nearby examples in the imagery and say "I'd 
> map that as residential" or similar.
> 
> 
I have opened a few changeset discussions, focusing on the newer changesets to 
users who have included a lot of highway=road, yet none have replied to me as 
of now.

For users who have tagged a low number of items I have done nothing more than 
reclassifying the ways.

It should not be necessary to re-validate 3-4 thousand highway=road (only in 
Brazil) every year, or have a monthly task for cleaning up this.

> Well your Garmin maps are under your control; you can choose to treat 
> highway=road as routable if you want to!  I do.

I currently download my Garmin map, so should I than open a ticket for the 
provider to consider routing on highway=road? What about my favourite online 
routing tool, which also doesn’t support routing on highway=road, should I open 
a ticket there as well? Will opening ticket on all of these third party 
providers solve my situation? Probably not.

Wiki indicates that highway=road implies “FIXME=Need proper survey” and that 
the tag is for temporary use until classification can be determined. If the 
mapper have no intention of going there, than it is better to guess a value, so 
that the road can be routable.


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[joost schouppe]

Just had a quick look here in Belgium: we have over a 1000 ways with this
tag.

This makes it easy to count in your area of interest:
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/iBC
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Richard Welty]

On 9/27/16 2:12 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Andy Townsend  > wrote:
>
> I'd suggest talking to the users concerned - the easiest way is
> via a changeset discussion comment.  If they're unsure what road
> category to use, you can point at other nearby examples in the
> imagery and say "I'd map that as residential" or similar.
>
>
> Of course, there's the never ending discussion of whether most rural
> roads in the US are tertiary, residential, unclassified or service.
> Our classification system is untidy at best. (I generally don't even
> try to get those distinctions right - there is no 'right'.) But I
> don't call them 'road' - I didn't even know such a thing existed until
> I saw this thread.
i find it useful if i see something new in aerial imagery and am not
sure how to tag it.
i only use it when i'm local, and make it a point to go survey the road
on the ground
to fix up the tagging.

richard

-- 
rwe...@averillpark.net
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> I'd suggest talking to the users concerned - the easiest way is via a
> changeset discussion comment.  If they're unsure what road category to use,
> you can point at other nearby examples in the imagery and say "I'd map that
> as residential" or similar.
>

Of course, there's the never ending discussion of whether most rural roads
in the US are tertiary, residential, unclassified or service. Our
classification system is untidy at best. (I generally don't even try to get
those distinctions right - there is no 'right'.) But I don't call them
'road' - I didn't even know such a thing existed until I saw this thread.
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Andy Townsend]

On 27/09/2016 18:37, Aun Johnsen wrote:


The use of highway=road would not be an issue if people used it to 
mark off an area where they are going to do survey or gather more 
information. It becomes an issue when people use it to map an entire 
town, and check it off as completed.


I'd suggest talking to the users concerned - the easiest way is via a 
changeset discussion comment.  If they're unsure what road category to 
use, you can point at other nearby examples in the imagery and say "I'd 
map that as residential" or similar.


During my cleanup rush I have seen examples of this where the roads 
haven’t been further edited for 10 months. The result is that the town 
continues to remain unmapped for data consumers, i.e., my downloaded 
Garmin maps will still not route to the town, but looking at Mapnik 
hows it has been mapped.


Well your Garmin maps are under your control; you can choose to treat 
highway=road as routable if you want to!  I do.





iD, JOSM, and other editors should warn about this situation,


JOSM warns about _everything_ already.  You've had the conversation with 
iD's maintainer and have yet to persuade.


and validating tools such as KeepRight and Maproulette should 
highlight it as incomplete, so that they doesn’t remain as 
highway=road for extended time.


Plenty do already, surely?

Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Seems like an actual temporary road tag, not a tag that which is temporary,
> but a road itself that is temporary, to get around a permanent road that's
> under long-term construction, would be useful.

It's actually a temporary tag.

From https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

"A road where the mapper is unable to ascertain the classification
from the information available. This is intended as a temporary tag to
mark a road until it has been properly surveyed. Once it has been
surveyed, the classification should be updated to the appropriate
value. "

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 14:24, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Aun Johnsen  > wrote:
> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so a 
> routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker up a 
> motorway
> 
> Seems like an actual temporary road tag, not a tag that which is temporary, 
> but a road itself that is temporary, to get around a permanent road that's 
> under long-term construction, would be useful.

The use of highway=road would not be an issue if people used it to mark off an 
area where they are going to do survey or gather more information. It becomes 
an issue when people use it to map an entire town, and check it off as 
completed. During my cleanup rush I have seen examples of this where the roads 
haven’t been further edited for 10 months. The result is that the town 
continues to remain unmapped for data consumers, i.e., my downloaded Garmin 
maps will still not route to the town, but looking at Mapnik hows it has been 
mapped.

iD, JOSM, and other editors should warn about this situation, and validating 
tools such as KeepRight and Maproulette should highlight it as incomplete, so 
that they doesn’t remain as highway=road for extended time.

Besides it should not take the mapper much effort to identify what highway=* 
tag is appropriate, to eliminate the need to return to the area.

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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Aun Johnsen  wrote:

> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so
> a routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker
> up a motorway
>

Seems like an actual temporary road tag, not a tag that which is temporary,
but a road itself that is temporary, to get around a permanent road that's
under long-term construction, would be useful.
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Aun Johnsen]

I can understand that mapathon contributors want to map high speed, and rather 
apply =road to everything instead of doing qualified guessing of wether to tag 
as path, unclassified, residential, pedestrian, or higher ranking roads. 
Sometimes I see tagging that is pure laziness, i.e., a bridge tagged road 
connecting two ways of tertiary. Such tagging laziness breaks routing. Further, 
large areas mapped as road will show up on OSM mapnik, but might not show on 
external data consumers

As long as the tag is still being used, a warning about temporary nature should 
be given

Also Brazil have, as many countries a tagging convention regarding highways, 
all armchair mappers should take their time to check up such tagging 
conventions when mapping far from their local area

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Sep 2016, at 12:56, john whelan  wrote:
> 
> I've cced the HOT mailing list as I do a fair amount of validation and 
> highway=road is one of the most common warnings I see from new mappers 
> mapping in maperthons.
> 
> Can we improve the training or validation?
> 
> Thanks John
> 
>> On 27 September 2016 at 09:21, Aun Johnsen  wrote:
>> 
>> > On Sep 27, 2016, at 09:00, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>> >
>> > Sadly this issue was closed
>> >
>> > https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2742
>> >
>> > --
>> > Holger
>> >
>> There have been quite a few issues and tickets regarding this over a time 
>> period, with little or no results, that is why I have resolved taking this 
>> to the list. Seems like asking the developers of the different tools are 
>> somewhat futile, and we need broader attention on this issue.
>> 
>> Aun Johnsen
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Pierre Béland]

For the Mali Humanitarian Response in early 2013, the Support Team, we noticed 
that contributors had difficulty to adapt to the reality of this african 
country with roads heavily damaged at rainy season, with street roads and major 
roads that looked like tracks. They had the tendancy to map everything as track 
or road.
We had to inform them on the reality of this african country where road 
infrastructures where completely different ot the road infrastructures the 
contributors knew in their respective countries.
I then created the Mali highway wiki page that later from various discussions 
we renamed Highway_Tag_Africa

This wiki page insist on taking account of the importance of this individual 
road in the country highway network and make distinction between the role of 
this road and the condition of this road.
>From imagery, looking at villages, town and cities, you can evaluate the 
>status of an individual road and tag it appropriately. This is either
- non connecting roads going out of villages to farmlands or forestry areas : 
highway=track- highway=residential for residential ways large enough for cars 
to circulate (not path because this is a dirt road)
- a minor road connecting hamlets and small villages : highway=unclassified- 
you then graduate from the importance of the road highway=[tertiary, secondary, 
primary ...]

We need to adapt to situation of various countries and surely not develop 
classification on roads based only on the reality of the rich countries where 
motorways and paved roads are the norm.  A primary road in Mali, even if this 
is a dirt road highly damaged at rainy season, this is still a primary road. 
Other tags should be used to describe the condition of the road (ie. surface  
smoothness).
And yes, it is better to indicate highway=unclassified + add a fixme then to 
use highway=[road, track] 
 
Pierre 


  De : Aun Johnsen <li...@gimnechiske.org>
 À : tagging@openstreetmap.org 
Cc : OpenStreetMap <t...@openstreetmap.org>
 Envoyé le : mardi 27 Septembre 2016 9h21
 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] non-temporary usage of highway=road
  



> On Sep 27, 2016, at 09:00, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> Sadly this issue was closed 
> 
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2742
> 
> -- 
> Holger
> 
There have been quite a few issues and tickets regarding this over a time 
period, with little or no results, that is why I have resolved taking this to 
the list. Seems like asking the developers of the different tools are somewhat 
futile, and we need broader attention on this issue.

Aun Johnsen


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