Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[John F. Eldredge]

The existing tagging scheme supports various levels of government, from local 
up through national.


On December 16, 2014 2:50:48 AM CST, Simone Savio  
wrote:
> The issue is that in Italy a government office, for example,
> corresponds to the
> prefecture.
> An office, such as that of the Informagiovani, is very different
> because it
> operates at a local level and it is a specific office for young
> people.
> 
> Simone
> 
> 2014-12-16 3:35 GMT+01:00 johnw :
> >
> > working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for
> building=civic
> > for all kinds of governmental buildings and services.
> >
> > Your input is appreciated.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic
> >
> > javbw
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge
> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
> > >> Hi propose
> > >>
> > >>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
> > >> <
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth
> > >
> > >>
> > >> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in
> Italy
> > >> such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in
> English.
> > >>
> > >> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Tagging mailing list
> > >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> > >>
> > >
> > > What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept
> exists in
> > English.
> > >
> > > Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office";
> > again, the concept exists in English.
> > >
> > > --
> > > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> > > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> > > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Tagging mailing list
> > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, 
Jr.
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[fly]

Am 16.12.2014 um 13:04 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> 2014-12-16 12:36 GMT+01:00 johnw mailto:jo...@mac.com>>:
> 
> Building=Civic + civic=civic_services if it offers something to them
> (a place for activities, government funded things or services) 
> 
> or 
> 
> building=civic + civic=civic_admin if it is a place where they go
> for paperwork, IDs or whatnot, or both admin and services together
> (admin takes priority). 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't tag any service by using the building tag. "Building" is
> about buildings, not services (which might be implied in some cases).

+1

> Agree with you about an new amenity, IMHO something like "counseling" or
> consulting service would be the direction for the specific case of
> informagiovani, together with subtags (for whom etc.) or maybe use
> office=employment_agency and some subtags.

What kind of amenity ?
Do we really need it ?

Think this fits well with office=* either as subtag of an existing value
or as subtag of a new value like consulting_service.

cu fly

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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[johnw]

Ah - I made a mistake!

the civic_admin and civic_service was the values for the landuse. My mistake. 

it would be: 

Building=civic + civic=[ youth center?], or whatever value he would want to 
create. 

the civic=* subtag I’m suggesting would fill out the missing types of civic 
buildings - the big list of them on the suggestion page -  are you suggesting 
to abandon that idea and just toss everything on that civic=* list into the 
amenity tag? 


PS: the description of the pizza made me hungry - especially since the local 
pizza here is horrid and the only acceptable slices are at Costco. I had no 
idea there were so many kinds of pizza in Italy!^__^

Javbw


> On Dec 16, 2014, at 9:04 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 2014-12-16 12:36 GMT+01:00 johnw mailto:jo...@mac.com>>:
> Building=Civic + civic=civic_services if it offers something to them (a place 
> for activities, government funded things or services) 
> 
> or 
> 
> building=civic + civic=civic_admin if it is a place where they go for 
> paperwork, IDs or whatnot, or both admin and services together (admin takes 
> priority). 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't tag any service by using the building tag. "Building" is about 
> buildings, not services (which might be implied in some cases). Agree with 
> you about an new amenity, IMHO something like "counseling" or consulting 
> service would be the direction for the specific case of informagiovani, 
> together with subtags (for whom etc.) or maybe use office=employment_agency 
> and some subtags.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-16 12:36 GMT+01:00 johnw :
>
> Building=Civic + civic=civic_services if it offers something to them (a
> place for activities, government funded things or services)
>
> or
>
> building=civic + civic=civic_admin if it is a place where they go for
> paperwork, IDs or whatnot, or both admin and services together (admin takes
> priority).
>


I wouldn't tag any service by using the building tag. "Building" is about
buildings, not services (which might be implied in some cases). Agree with
you about an new amenity, IMHO something like "counseling" or consulting
service would be the direction for the specific case of informagiovani,
together with subtags (for whom etc.) or maybe use office=employment_agency
and some subtags.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[johnw]

> On Dec 16, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Simone Savio  wrote:
> 
> The issue is that in Italy a government office, for example, corresponds to 
> the prefecture.
> An office, such as that of the Informagiovani, is very different because it 
> operates at a local level and it is a specific office for young people.


Building=Civic + civic=civic_services if it offers something to them (a place 
for activities, government funded things or services) 

or 

building=civic + civic=civic_admin if it is a place where they go for 
paperwork, IDs or whatnot, or both admin and services together (admin takes 
priority). 

a rec center, community center, community hall, or other place where citizens 
go for administration or service fits the bill - weather it is old peole or 
young people. 

I suggest a new amenity=* value to further differentiate the service (since you 
feel it is not represented well) - but it certainly would fall into that 
category of building=civic and civic=*   - just as a city hall, a rec center, 
or community center would fall into that category as well, and all are further 
defined by their amenity tag. 

Javbw



> 
> Simone
> 
> 2014-12-16 3:35 GMT+01:00 johnw mailto:jo...@mac.com>>:
> working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for building=civic for 
> all kinds of governmental buildings and services.
> 
> Your input is appreciated.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic 
> 
> 
> javbw
> 
> 
> > On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
> >> Hi propose
> >>
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico 
> >> 
> >>  >>  
> >> >
> >>
> >> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
> >> such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
> >>
> >> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> >> 
> >>
> >
> > What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in 
> > English.
> >
> > Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office"; again, 
> > the concept exists in English.
> >
> > --
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com 
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> > 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Mateusz Konieczny]

"operates at a local leve" "it is a specific office for young people."

It may expressed by additional tags - it is unnecessary to create top-level
rags for every single subtle variation.

Also, something intended to function in this way was present in Poland
during Soviet occupation, it is not
something specific to Italy.

2014-12-16 9:50 GMT+01:00 Simone Savio :
>
> The issue is that in Italy a government office, for example, corresponds
> to the prefecture.
> An office, such as that of the Informagiovani, is very different because
> it operates at a local level and it is a specific office for young people.
>
> Simone
>
> 2014-12-16 3:35 GMT+01:00 johnw :
>>
>> working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for building=civic
>> for all kinds of governmental buildings and services.
>>
>> Your input is appreciated.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic
>>
>> javbw
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
>> >> Hi propose
>> >>
>> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
>> >> <
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth
>> >
>> >>
>> >> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
>> >> such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
>> >>
>> >> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> Tagging mailing list
>> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >>
>> >
>> > What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in
>> English.
>> >
>> > Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office";
>> again, the concept exists in English.
>> >
>> > --
>> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
>> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
>> > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
>> > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Simone Savio]

The issue is that in Italy a government office, for example, corresponds to the
prefecture.
An office, such as that of the Informagiovani, is very different because it
operates at a local level and it is a specific office for young people.

Simone

2014-12-16 3:35 GMT+01:00 johnw :
>
> working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for building=civic
> for all kinds of governmental buildings and services.
>
> Your input is appreciated.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic
>
> javbw
>
>
> > On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
> >> Hi propose
> >>
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
> >> <
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth
> >
> >>
> >> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
> >> such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
> >>
> >> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >
> > What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in
> English.
> >
> > Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office";
> again, the concept exists in English.
> >
> > --
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[johnw]

working on a proposal for civic landuses, and a subtag for building=civic for 
all kinds of governmental buildings and services. 

Your input is appreciated. 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landuse%3Dcivic

javbw


> On Dec 16, 2014, at 7:30 AM, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:
>> Hi propose
>> 
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
>> 
>> 
>> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
>> such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
>> 
>> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> 
> 
> What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in 
> English.
> 
> Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office"; again, the 
> concept exists in English.
> 
> -- 
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[John F. Eldredge]

On 12/15/2014 08:31 AM, Simone Savio wrote:

Hi propose

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico


becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy
such as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.

Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.


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What is informagiovani?  An information office?  The concept exists in 
English.


Ufficio pubblico looks like it would translate as "public office"; 
again, the concept exists in English.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[sabas88]

2014-12-15 17:03 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>
> 2014-12-15 15:42 GMT+01:00 sabas88 :
>>
>> Hi,
>> I know we have an unusual amount of bureaucracy in Italy, but we may not
>> need a custom tag for it
>>
>
>
> from my experience it is mostly not the amount of bureaucracy but the
> response times that are a real show stopper ;-)
>
>
>
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_building
>>
>
>
> this is not a really an alternative, as it is not a synonymon, it is about
> a public building (and implicitly referring - how I interpret the
> intentions of the tag - to public services inside the building), and would
> from my interpretation include a lot of services that won't be included in
> "ufficio pubblico" (e.g. libraries, museums, schools, ...).
>
> Still I agree that amenity=ufficio_pubblico is in no way a good tag idea.
> First - if we were to introduce a country-specific tag for the public
> administration, what I oppose like you do - I'd expect a namespace for
> this, like "it:ufficio_pubblico" (to indicate that the tag is in Italian).
>
> Secondly, if the reason to introduce this tag was to tag "informagiovani",
> and if this is their homepage: http://www.informagiovani.it/ , I wouldn't
> even classify these as public administration, as they are privately run.
> There are English words to express the concept of "ufficio pubblico" and
> the tag - if chosen as generic as it is here - could well be in English. As
> a tag proposal for this specific institution I would have expected
> something on the same "specificy level", e.g. amenity=it:informagiovani
> (but I wouldn't support such a specific toplevel tag either).
>

> IMHO we should define the type of service that informagiovani is offering,
> and then try to find a suitable tag. Up to now there is no actual
> documentation or definition on the proposal page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
>

The one in my city is run by the municipality (
http://www.informagiovani.comune.genova.it/) and gives information and
assistance (mainly, but not exclusively) to young people on education and
work topics..

cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-12-15 15:42 GMT+01:00 sabas88 :
>
> Hi,
> I know we have an unusual amount of bureaucracy in Italy, but we may not
> need a custom tag for it
>


from my experience it is mostly not the amount of bureaucracy but the
response times that are a real show stopper ;-)



>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_building
>


this is not a really an alternative, as it is not a synonymon, it is about
a public building (and implicitly referring - how I interpret the
intentions of the tag - to public services inside the building), and would
from my interpretation include a lot of services that won't be included in
"ufficio pubblico" (e.g. libraries, museums, schools, ...).

Still I agree that amenity=ufficio_pubblico is in no way a good tag idea.
First - if we were to introduce a country-specific tag for the public
administration, what I oppose like you do - I'd expect a namespace for
this, like "it:ufficio_pubblico" (to indicate that the tag is in Italian).

Secondly, if the reason to introduce this tag was to tag "informagiovani",
and if this is their homepage: http://www.informagiovani.it/ , I wouldn't
even classify these as public administration, as they are privately run.
There are English words to express the concept of "ufficio pubblico" and
the tag - if chosen as generic as it is here - could well be in English. As
a tag proposal for this specific institution I would have expected
something on the same "specificy level", e.g. amenity=it:informagiovani
(but I wouldn't support such a specific toplevel tag either).

IMHO we should define the type of service that informagiovani is offering,
and then try to find a suitable tag. Up to now there is no actual
documentation or definition on the proposal page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Volker Schmidt]

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informagiovani does not look to me
Italy-specific
:-)


On 15 December 2014 at 15:31, Simone Savio 
wrote:
>
> Hi propose
>
>  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
> 
>
> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy such
> as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
>
> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
>
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[sabas88]

2014-12-15 15:52 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald :
>
>
>
> 2014-12-15 15:42 GMT+01:00 sabas88 :
>>
>> I know we have an unusual amount of bureaucracy in Italy, but we may not
>> need a custom tag for it
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_building
>>
>
> Why is this abandoned? I just read the talk page, but it is not really
> clear to me.
>
>
TBH I didn't notice the message.. :-)

BUT it could make sense to me (what about different offices in same
building?) , for example replacing it with building=public +
office=government
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment


Regards,
Stefano

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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Martin Vonwald]

2014-12-15 15:42 GMT+01:00 sabas88 :
>
> I know we have an unusual amount of bureaucracy in Italy, but we may not
> need a custom tag for it
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_building
>

Why is this abandoned? I just read the talk page, but it is not really
clear to me.
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Re: [Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[sabas88]

2014-12-15 15:31 GMT+01:00 Simone Savio :
>
> Hi propose
>
>  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico
> 
>
> becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy such
> as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.
>

Hi,
I know we have an unusual amount of bureaucracy in Italy, but we may not
need a custom tag for it

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dpublic_building



> Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
>
>
Ciao,
Stefano


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[Tagging] [tagging] Amenity=Ufficio_Pubblico

[Simone Savio]

Hi propose

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ufficio_pubblico


becaus I want create  a specific tag for public institutions in Italy such
as informagiovani because this concept does not exist in English.

Looking forward for any comments and suggestions.
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